Gymnastics Advice?

Bigrockhunter · December 11, 2009

Hello all,

My daughter is 7 and a level 4 gymnast competing for the first year. So I struggled with my D-80 with a 18-135mm lens, realized just not fast enough and not enough light etc. So for this weekend I rented the 70-200mm f/2.8 lens. Can anybody offer advice on settings etc. Was planning on setting it wide open on proirity apeture mode, and letting the camera select the shutter speed. Should I use Auto ISO, or select 1600? 3200? I know with my 18-135 lens on 1600 my pictures come out very grainy. Was thinking about picking up a 50m f/1.8 as well, but at this meet think I will be to far from the action.

Sean

slpollett · December 11, 2009

I can't really offer advice on camera settings, but I feel your pain. My daughter also competed gymnastics for several years. Taking good photos without flash in gym lighting is tough especially if you can't get close (which is usually the case). Sounds like you have a good action plan though. I'd go with as low ISO as I could get away with though.

Good luck.

Sherry

Bigrockhunter · December 11, 2009

slpollett wrote:

I can't really offer advice on camera settings, but I feel your pain. My daughter also competed gymnastics for several years. Taking good photos without flash in gym lighting is tough especially if you can't get close (which is usually the case). Sounds like you have a good action plan though. I'd go with as low ISO as I could get away with though.

Good luck.

Sherry

Yes I agree, this is really new to me so looking at it as practice, lots of meets in this season. This one is at the convention center in Baltimore, so not sure what the lighting will be like, but hoping the lens helps. Not looking for professional photos but something I can hang on the wall and don't have to delete 200 photos due to blur or really bad grain.

Rocketman766 · December 12, 2009

I know it's a long read (22 pages and growing..) but check out this thread on shooting gymnastics.

I shoot indoor cheerleading which, much like gymnastics, has terrible lighting most of the time. My daughter was also in gymnastics for a long time (broke her ankle and gave up gymnastics...:cry ) so I feel your pain with the lighting. I am not familiar with Nikon gear, but I recommend something in the 85 f/1.8 or 100mm f/2 range, or 135mm f/2. You will likely have to get that ISO up to 1600 or 3200. You might want to invest in some noise reduction software if you don't already have some. Luckily, at level 4, you probably already have the routines memorized and can anticipate locations. (now I can't get that music out of my head!!!!!!!) Good luck and feel free to post some results. You can get alot of good information here.

johng · December 12, 2009

Sean,

First, you'll either want to set a custom white balance or shoot RAW. Don't leave it in auto WB or you'll have some issues.

Second, I would recommend manual exposure. Why? Because, regardless of which other mode you use, if you let the camera adjust the exposure it will likely get it wrong. Objects in the background and the color of the leo will mess up the exposure. You want the exposure to be correct for the FACES not background or leo. I'll give you some settings to start. Then all you need to do is as your daughter's group moves to the next event, take some practice shots and adjust the exposure as needed. In the center area of the gym the exposure should be the same for all aparatus - it will just change if something is near the edge of the room and a wall (less light).

Now, you're going to be challenged because the D80 doesn't have ISO 6400 and it's ISO 3200 performance is quite noisy. But you have to make do. I would set exposure at ISO 3200, f2.8 and 1/250 and take your test shots. Adjust shutter speed at each aparatus to get a correct exposure. If it's poor lighting you might have to go down to 1/125. In good lighting you might make it to 1/500. Make sure auto ISO is turned off.

If you're at 1/250 or slower then take shots with less motion - poses on beam and floor, jumps on beam - the hand-stand on the vault etc. Don't try to get tumbling passes on the floor.

Bigrockhunter · December 12, 2009

johng wrote:

Sean,

First, you'll either want to set a custom white balance or shoot RAW. Don't leave it in auto WB or you'll have some issues.

Second, I would recommend manual exposure. Why? Because, regardless of which other mode you use, if you let the camera adjust the exposure it will likely get it wrong. Objects in the background and the color of the leo will mess up the exposure. You want the exposure to be correct for the FACES not background or leo. I'll give you some settings to start. Then all you need to do is as your daughter's group moves to the next event, take some practice shots and adjust the exposure as needed. In the center area of the gym the exposure should be the same for all aparatus - it will just change if something is near the edge of the room and a wall (less light).

Now, you're going to be challenged because the D80 doesn't have ISO 6400 and it's ISO 3200 performance is quite noisy. But you have to make do. I would set exposure at ISO 3200, f2.8 and 1/250 and take your test shots. Adjust shutter speed at each aparatus to get a correct exposure. If it's poor lighting you might have to go down to 1/125. In good lighting you might make it to 1/500. Make sure auto ISO is turned off.

If you're at 1/250 or slower then take shots with less motion - poses on beam and floor, jumps on beam - the hand-stand on the vault etc. Don't try to get tumbling passes on the floor.

Thanks for the advice it is very helpful. I will invest in noise reduction software, I was going to after the last meet, but the pictures where so bad(blur/noise/dark) that I didn't bother, hoping will have better results this meet.

I think my other biggest challenge is recognize when the exposure is correct do you base it off the image in the viewfinder, or the meter on the camera?

austinado16 · December 12, 2009

Have you considered selling the D80 and putting that money toward a nice used D300? Probably be the last camera body you'll buy (for a long, long, time) and it would sure do you justice since your goal is to capture precious memories of your little athlete.

Just got done shooting my first season...hence why I started what has become a monster of a thread....and I learned alot from the folks here, and from practicing weekly in the gym during my daughter's practices.

As others have mentioned, you want to be in full manual mode, so that you can adjust everything yourself. IMO, you also want to be able to adjust on the fly, so try to memorized the finger positions that allow you to adjust shutter speed and ISO without taking the camera away from your face.

My first lens purchase was a 70-200/2.8. Didn't take long to discover that, while it's a fantastic lens, F2.8 is not wide open enough for some/most gyms. I listened to the advice from others here, about buying some prime lenses, and picked up a 50/1.4 and an 85/1.8. Once I had them, I used them at almost every meet.....and I'm on the hunt for a 135/2 now.

It seems to take about 1/320th to stop Level 4 motion, and that'll also handle most of the Level 5 routines. But "it" doesn't seem to get really good until about 1/400th or better......which can be super hard to achieve.

Take advantage of manual focus for some things. It'll keep the camera from hunting for focus, or from grabbing the back wall. For example, on Vault, you can get some cool shots by manually focusing the camera on the center of the mat where their hands will touch. Then, as they leave the spring board, hold the trigger down and pan with them. Somewhere in that series of shots you'll get a couple really cool ones.

Also, since you use SD cards, buy the fastest generation card(s) that are currently available. Get the biggest card you can afford. The last thing you want is the camera hanging up while it's trying to write a burst of photos to the card, or the warning "Card Full" in the middle of a routine.

When you make your initial settings, meter of their faces as they are standing around or warming up on an event. Sometimes you have to fool the camera because it may be metering an area bigger than the face. So take some test shots, and if faces are dark, drop to the next lowest shutter speed, and or, go up one step in ISO. Think in terms of "I need to be at 1/250th or better, so what ISO is going to center the light meter pointer and give me that in this location?" I've had to meter off the underside of the vault table or the floor when there's been some weird back lighting issue.....like a side door on the gym was left swung open.

Have fun, practice, practice, practice...and join us over on the big thread with what you learn, and some of your shots, so that others can learn too!

Hikin' Mike · December 12, 2009

I've been shooting gymnastics for a few years. My take is, I'd rather have a grainy/noisy photo of my daughter that is well exposed then one with either none or an underexposed and 'clean' photo.

I don't do this for a living and I'm really a nature photographer that happens to have a daughter that loves gymnastics....level 5 right now. So, with that said, my lenses aren't the fastest in town. I can't afford f/2.8 lenses so I deal with the f/4. So most of my shots are at ISO 3200, f/4 and 1/200...1/320 or 1/400 if the light is excellent. Don't be afraid to use noise reduction.

This season I started offering prints to the other parents. One parent owns a EOS XTi (I think) and the kit lens....they were my first customer.

OldGuy · December 12, 2009

Bigrockhunter wrote:

Hello all,

My daughter is 7 and a level 4 gymnast competing for the first year. So I struggled with my D-80 with a 18-135mm lens, realized just not fast enough and not enough light etc. So for this weekend I rented the 70-200mm f/2.8 lens. Can anybody offer advice on settings etc. Was planning on setting it wide open on proirity apeture mode, and letting the camera select the shutter speed. Should I use Auto ISO, or select 1600? 3200? I know with my 18-135 lens on 1600 my pictures come out very grainy. Was thinking about picking up a 50m f/1.8 as well, but at this meet think I will be to far from the action.

Sean

Hi Sean,
I agree completely with Austinado16 in regards to the D300. It has really good high ISO and auto white balance capabilities (if you have changing light temps in the gym). Also you might consider a D200, although it doesn't come up to the 300, it may suit you just fine. In my experience, both work real well with f2.8 glass.

I was the event photog at the Michigan level 5 State Championships this past summer which fortunately provided access to the gym floor. As such, I used both my D200 and D300, which admittedly is over-kill for what you are after. I mention this only as a comparison between the two.

If you go to my SmugMug site and click on the Sports/Gymnastics galleries, then scroll over the large thumbnail, a pop-up window will appear with a photo info button. Click on this to see the settings I used for both cameras. On the D200, I used my 17-55 f2.8 and on the D300 I used my 70-200 f2.8. I did have to do noise reduction (NoiseNinja) and some color correction and a whole lot of cropping.

I apologize if you are already a SmugMug user, but I have found a few people on these forums who are not familiar with this site.

I hope this helps and happy shooting. I hope you will post your results

Bigrockhunter · December 12, 2009

OldGuy wrote:

Hi Sean,
I agree completely with Austinado16 in regards to the D300. It has really good high ISO and auto white balance capabilities (if you have changing light temps in the gym). Also you might consider a D200, although it doesn't come up to the 300, it may suit you just fine. In my experience, both work real well with f2.8 glass.

I was the event photog at the Michigan level 5 State Championships this past summer which fortunately provided access to the gym floor. As such, I used both my D200 and D300, which admittedly is over-kill for what you are after. I mention this only as a comparison between the two.

If you go to my SmugMug site and click on the Sports/Gymnastics galleries, then scroll over the large thumbnail, a pop-up window will appear with a photo info button. Click on this to see the settings I used for both cameras. On the D200, I used my 17-55 f2.8 and on the D300 I used my 70-200 f2.8. I did have to do noise reduction (NoiseNinja) and some color correction and a whole lot of cropping.

I apologize if you are already a SmugMug user, but I have found a few people on these forums who are not familiar with this site.

I hope this helps and happy shooting. I hope you will post your results

Thanks for all the input and suggestions, while I would love to have the D-300 it is just not in picture/budget at this time.

I will definitly get the Noise reduction software, and will check out Smugmug, I was not familiar with it.

I plan on posting my results if anything out of frustration if I don't get the results I am looking for. Although I plan to definitely shooting a ton of pics of all the gymnast and really try differant ISO's shutter speed etc so I can get familiar with them.

Sean

austinado16 · December 12, 2009

Sean, one of the mom's at our gym has been using a D80 for about 2 years, maybe 3. She's using that walk-around lens, similar to yours. She gets great photos until she gets in a gym where the lighting is poor. Also, she's only able to get a single shot, or maybe a couple of shots in a row due to the low frames per second of the camera in low light. She compensates by anticipating where the gymnast will be, manually focusing on that point, and then pulls the trigger as the gymnast arrives in frame, or just before.

We shot side-by-side at a few meets, or she'd be "on" before or after me since her daughter was in L6 and mine was in L5. Didn't take long before there was a noticeable difference between what I could get, and what she could. She's a much better photographer than I, but there was just no getting around my better lenses. I'm not bragging, far from it. Just trying to give you a heads up.

If you can buy some primes, do it. I don't know what they run for Nikons, but the non L glass Canon 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 are $389ea new and $300ish used. The 135/2 is a different story at $900 used and $1,200ish new, so that's keeping me from owning one right now. But I highly recommend you get the primes. The 50 will do most of your normal "nearby" events, and the 85 will handle stuff that's about mid-gym. You can use your walk-around lens and a mono-pod to do distant events if you wait for "peak-of-motion." And that walk-around lens will be great for all the fun candids you can get up close when the girls are messing around.

But don't count yourself out of the D300 market. As people dump their "old" gear for the latest and greatest, you can get good money for your D80 and for a few hundred more, score a D300. There's just no getting around the better high ISO sensitivity, the better sensor, and the better focusing system for gymnasts that are always moving targets....not to mention the better frames per second. It's a lot of fun to hold the trigger down during a vault run and get the entire thing in 1/6th second intervals. Makes for some fun shots!

johng · December 13, 2009

I wouldn't worry too much about frame rate for gymnastics. Gymnastics is one sport where things are relatively predictable. Especially at level 4. Even though I have capability for 10fps, I rarely use it for gymnastics.

As for noise reduction software, my personal preference is Noiseware but neatimage and noise ninja also work well.

Have fun.

Bigrockhunter · December 13, 2009

austinado16 wrote:

Sean, one of the mom's at our gym has been using a D80 for about 2 years, maybe 3. She's using that walk-around lens, similar to yours. She gets great photos until she gets in a gym where the lighting is poor. Also, she's only able to get a single shot, or maybe a couple of shots in a row due to the low frames per second of the camera in low light. She compensates by anticipating where the gymnast will be, manually focusing on that point, and then pulls the trigger as the gymnast arrives in frame, or just before.

We shot side-by-side at a few meets, or she'd be "on" before or after me since her daughter was in L6 and mine was in L5. Didn't take long before there was a noticeable difference between what I could get, and what she could. She's a much better photographer than I, but there was just no getting around my better lenses. I'm not bragging, far from it. Just trying to give you a heads up.

If you can buy some primes, do it. I don't know what they run for Nikons, but the non L glass Canon 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 are $389ea new and $300ish used. The 135/2 is a different story at $900 used and $1,200ish new, so that's keeping me from owning one right now. But I highly recommend you get the primes. The 50 will do most of your normal "nearby" events, and the 85 will handle stuff that's about mid-gym. You can use your walk-around lens and a mono-pod to do distant events if you wait for "peak-of-motion." And that walk-around lens will be great for all the fun candids you can get up close when the girls are messing around.

But don't count yourself out of the D300 market. As people dump their "old" gear for the latest and greatest, you can get good money for your D80 and for a few hundred more, score a D300. There's just no getting around the better high ISO sensitivity, the better sensor, and the better focusing system for gymnasts that are always moving targets....not to mention the better frames per second. It's a lot of fun to hold the trigger down during a vault run and get the entire thing in 1/6th second intervals. Makes for some fun shots!

I have not had the low frame per second problem, but probably because I have not been set up correctly. I will keep my eye out on the D300 do you think I am better off with the D-300 with my current lens? or investing the money the lenses at this point? Fortunatly I think the lighting at todays meet at the Baltimore Convention center will be better than the small gyms we have been in, but could be wrong about that. Good think is there are plenty of meets left this season to practice.

How do you guys balance watching your sons/daughters vs. concentrating on getting pictures?

Rocketman766 · December 13, 2009

Bigrockhunter wrote:

How do you guys balance watching your sons/daughters vs. concentrating on getting pictures?

Wife watches while I concentrate on getting the pics. If I get lots of good shots or our daughter at her events, my wife and daughter are happy... if I opted to watch and not get pics, then my wife and daughter are not happy.

Bigrockhunter · December 13, 2009

Rocketman766 wrote:

Wife watches while I concentrate on getting the pics. If I get lots of good shots or our daughter at her events, my wife and daughter are happy... if I opted to watch and not get pics, then my wife and daughter are not happy.

My problem is I really enjoy watching, plus my daughter quizzes me when we are driving home. Plus we always video tape as well

austinado16 · December 13, 2009

I started out in one shot mode, trying to capture just the specific moment that a pose or movement was great. But I switched to continuous shooting mode when I discovered that I could get a slew of shots before/during/after the specific movement and wind up with even more good and interesting photographs. For example, on the Vault, even with L4, I can get the approach to the spring board, the hit on the board, leaving the board, flying to the mat, handstand from the mat, flying upside down, and floating in the air level, just before landing on the mat.

Once I found the fun and cool shots I could get with the spray-and-pray method, I've not gone back. Again, this is just works for me. I'm not a pro, and don't claim to be. It was just more fun for us to have, say, 40 shots from beam and keep 30 of them if we wanted, rather than 5 shots.

Regarding how do you watch, you can't. You will miss out on all your daughter's routines because you're now viewing them through a 1" opening and you're eye is watching for where the light meter is, where the focus point(s) is, where your horizontal and vertical reference is (you don't want crooked photos), where your daughter is, and where she's going to be next. Sure you'll see it, but it's different than just sitting back and enjoying her doing her thing. Along with all the camera gear I purchased this spring, I also bought a used Sony VX2000 in Lowpro Mini Trekker, with a ton of extras. It's been the best video camera. My wife uses it, on a fat Manfrotto monopod. So I get to see the video, as does my daughter, when we get home.

IMO, you're going to want new glass for the really badly lit gyms. There's nothing wrong with that walk-around lens you have, so keep it, especially if it's VR. I had a couple of gyms this season where the lighting was so bad my f2.8's were a joke. I litterally would have been using them at ISO 3200 or 6400 and a shutter speed still down in the 1/250th. In those gyms, the primes saved the day. I remember at one, as I was walking in, the mom with the D80 was just leaving from the 1st session. First thing she said was, "It's so dark in there. I hardly took any pictures. Good luck." Not a problem. I put the primes on and shot nearly 900 photos of the entire L5 team.

Hikin' Mike · December 13, 2009

Bigrockhunter wrote:

How do you guys balance watching your sons/daughters vs. concentrating on getting pictures?

When I try and photograph my daughter, that's all I do. I really don't 'see' her. There are times that I don't even try to photograph, but usually because there are too many people in the way, too far away etc. Sometimes its nice to just watch!

Gymnastics Advice?

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