I need your business opinions please

SweetScenePhoto

A friend of mine informed me that a local indoor playplace is looking for a photographer for one of their upcoming events. Just in that = it's a good opportunity for me to gain more experience (and hopefully, business).
Here is the email I received from the business management:

"I am looking for a photographer to take pictures at an event in The business name (location). What I am looking may or may not exist, but here goes: to set up a princess background scene with proper lighting, take pictures of "Cinderella" with each child, after the photo moment, & going around the "tea party" taking candid pictures.
I am willing to offer a flat compensation package or a percentage of the revenue created from the pictures. Copyrights are to belong to The business location.
Let me know if you are interested. Our event is planned for Jan. 18. Thank you for your time."

I know that most of you will probably disagree with the business location retaining copyrights to the pictures. So, I'm sure that's a point.
I'm also guessing the the flat compensation should be based on how many photos/models are taken and whether they expect me to print photos, or the business will do that on their own. I would have to purchase a princess backdrop - as I don't have anything like that.
I also just started my business - just a few months ago. I don't have any professional education or experience - to be completely honest.

thank you for your time!

juddpainter

I'm by no means an authority on playplace photography but I have looked into the idea of conducting school photography before... here are my thoughts on what might be reasonable.

Firstly, as you suspected, the idea of giving up copyright on your images is a sore point and you should try and avoid this! As you are photographing children, I would imagine that the playplace has a very understandable concern about where the pictures might end up if they are not in control of copyright - and I'm sure you can put their concerns at rest with a simple contract stating usage of images... ie "images of each child or group of children will not be resold or exhibited to other parties". The Playplace also probably will want to use the images to promote the business, so you should grant them the right to use the images for this purpose only, and not resale.

You should try and take complete control of the selling, printing and delivery of images - (and retain profits from this too!) You can do this by setting up a pro smugmug gallery (I'll go into this in more detail later.) I would be inclined to cover my costs and bill the Playplace for the cost of your backdrop, and maybe a reasonable hourly rate for your time.... but the main money will come from the sale of prints to parents, grandparents and family members of each child through your online galleries (hopefully attached to your website as a link) If you are just starting out, this traffic to your website and gallery will be invaluable as you will have a captive audience of parents with young children who may want to book your services for their other children if you do a good job!)

Make sure you are organized! When you photograph each child with Cindarella, make a note of the child's name, and if possible the email address of the child's parents, so you can contact them with online gallery information. Don't forget to number each of the children on your list in ascending order, so you can track which image goes with which name. Try and take at least 10 images of each child so the parents have a good choice for making prints. When doing candids, try and get as many natural shots of each 'individual' child as you can, (good for additional print sales to Parents) and get some generic good shots that the Playplace can use for their promotional efforts (keep everyone happy).

GALLERIES

After the event, edit then upload all usable the images you took that day to one gallery (but just include one picture of each child), set your print prices, password protect the gallery, then send it to your contact at the Playplace. Then, make an individual gallery for each child - upload your collection of images for that particular child, password protect, set your print prices then email the gallery details to the parents (hopefully you got these email addresses on the day, if not I'm sure the Playplace would be able to supply these details. With a smugmug gallery you can have the option of having them do everything... they collect the money from each parent online through credit card payment, they also print and deliver - so all you have to do is upload, set prices, then email to parents.

With this arrangement, the playplace get a fully managed, professional service from you - means they don't have to deal with the annoyances of individual small print orders. They also get to improve their event with your special service at a relatively low price for them (your set-up cost for the backdrop and lights and maybe a small hourly rate or 'sitting fee' if you think you can get away with it).. also if your images are any good - you'll make the playplace look good.... also, they will have got a whole load of images for their marketing. If they always had it in mind to make money out of the photography then you may have some problems with this structure - but maybe rectify this by offering THEM a small percentage of YOUR profits (that way you keep control)

You benefit because you make money from the prints and you introduce your work and the efficiency of your service to a whole new set of potential future clients...If you can attach a smugmug or similar gallery to your website (really easy to do) then you get all these new clients passing through the website to get to their childs gallery. It is a brilliant marketing opportunity for a new business and I would think of it like this primarily when pitching your pricing to the Playplace. You also have a collection of emails to email the parents with a greetings card offer before christmas time... etc. You can get some really good greetings card templates from WHCC (good online photo lab) and paste your images inside the psp template, emailing each parent in September with a readymade example - a sure winner!!

Again - this is me just throwing ideas around.... I have no experience of this kind of photography... I'm just describing how I'd do it....

Best of luck - sounds like a great opportunity!

JuddWatts
Jinger Studios
www.jingerstudios.com

Art Scott

If you feel you can do this and do it properly ok....not fantastically great...but ok.....then go for it ........AS TO CUSTODY OF THE COPYRIGHT......get joint custody...and since you are the lawful custodian to begin with....tell them that you will grant them complet useage rights but you name stays on the images....so make an action that will plce your name (signature....not a copyright statement: ©2009SweetScenePhoto.......just your artistic signature)...my choice for placement is approx 1.5" from right edge and up 1.5" from bottom of photo.....if it is to be a wrap then I go a bit more and some times get wildly creative and place siggy along a treebranch or some such thing............
I also would get a 2nd shooter and 2 assistants.....2nd shooter to take a bit of stress of you shooting candid while you're shooting "formals" with Cindyrella:D.....the assistants are to help with gear load in and the ndo full strike while you are shooting candids....load in=set up and strike=tear down put away........kids are handy for this....if you don't have your own then borrow or rent a couple from close friends or ask a local high school if they have a photo class and get the best 2 students as assistants................

Do this one job for expeirience and enuff money to cover expenses...do not buy the backdrop ...scour the "net" for rentals....they are out there it just takestime to find them .....also colleges with a theatrical dept may have a Cindy backdrop to rent you........

Good Luck
and post images after it is over if you do it.

Nikolai

You guys are mixing up copyright and usage rights again.

You can be a copyright owner (photographer) and do not a have a right to use your own pictures, should you sell exclusive usage to a 3d party.

The playplace owner is apparently interested in picture *usage*, unless s/he wants to go around pretending s/he was the actual artist who took the picture (i.e. be a copyright holder).

nipprdog

SweetScenePhoto wrote:

I would have to purchase a princess backdrop - as I don't have anything like that.
I also just started my business - just a few months ago. I don't have any professional education or experience - to be completely honest.

What type of multiple lighting system do you have?

SweetScenePhoto

thanks!

nipprdog wrote:

What type of multiple lighting system do you have?

Jim -
I don't have one. That's my next post to the Accessories forum....
I know that I need some sort of external lighting (something portable would be nice). It would have to be something that can work with my camera (Canon Rebel XSi). My husband has been very supportive and we want to make a purchase that will last (and not really break the bank, either).

I've been doing outdoor portrait photography for years and don't have any formal photography education (that's also on my list).

thanks!
~j

Nikolai

What you need:
* for the booth: 2 or 3 stationary lights + backfrop
* for the candids: xTTL speedlight (in a hot shoe; on a bracket; light on a stick if you have an assistant)
It's actually not that hard, you may even enjoy it. With adults you typically must wait till everybody get enough C2H5OH consumed to get candids going; kids are much easier crowd in this case...

nipprdog

SweetScenePhoto wrote:

Jim -
I don't have one. That's my next post to the Accessories forum....
I know that I need some sort of external lighting (something portable would be nice). It would have to be something that can work with my camera (Canon Rebel XSi). My husband has been very supportive and we want to make a purchase that will last (and not really break the bank, either).

I've been doing outdoor portrait photography for years and don't have any formal photography education (that's also on my list).

thanks!
~j

I posted that question for a reason. And, no offense, but I got the answer I expected.

If you don't have the equipment, and the experience to use it, don't soilicit professional gigs. It will only hurt you in the long run.

First, get the equipment.

Second, practice with it, until you can shoot 'on a whim' with it.

Then, solicit work.

SweetScenePhoto

Jim -
Thank you for your honesty. I completely understand your point.
Going to research what stationary lighting sets to get to learn on.

thank you!