GOOD Lighting Equipment, on a budget

bandgeekndb

Hi everybody!

So, my significant other has blessed me with the possibility of some camera equipment for christmas, etc., so I was hoping for a little help shopping! I have decent body and glass, so I believe I'm on to lighting. Looking for a background setup of some sort, and some nice lighting that doesn't break the bank.

First, the use. My main use would be for portraiture and especially boudoir. I'm sure anything recommended would also be useful in a number of other situations, but I don't need something for direct sunlight beach shoots, this will be used in situations where there is controllable existing light, so I don't need to overpower it with my lights, just replace or add to it.

Second, I'm looking at a budget of $500-600 tops, and I want to maximize this while staying with good quality equipment. For example, if the best thing for me would be 2 AB800's, and I can't afford that, I'd either wait till i can get both, or get the first one (if would be useful on its own) and then get the 2nd one later.

Third, I'm going to be building this system slowly, so no elaborate 12 or 20 light kits please! :huh Even a standard kit of 3-4 lights, I'll work my way up to that! :rofl

I'm starting from scratch, nothing but an SB400 for lighting in my kit, no backgrounds, etc. either. So, what are the suggestions? Also, can I do a lot with just one light, if that's all the budget allows for right now?

Thanks for answering my questions! I spent a bit of time in a rental studio, and I loved every minute of it, but then they closed up shop and ran away to ALASKA! How RUDE!!!!! :pissed

ziggy53

Please explain in more detail the conditions under which you will be shooting.

For example, will you be shooting in a studio or people's houses?

You mentioned you might have " controllable existing light", what does that mean?

etc.

bandgeekndb

Sorry ziggy, thought I was clear enough.

I don't have studio space right now, but when I get my own place, I'd like to set up some space to make into a studio. Right now, I have an apartment, and I'd like to be able to put up a backdrop and begin working on my lighting techniques with some decent studio lights.

I was trying to imply, I don't need really super powerful lights, because I won't be trying to shoot in full daylight on a sunny beach using these lights.

As I said, I'm looking to do portraiture, specializing in boudior. This would probably be mostly indoors, in some sort of small room in my apartment. Occasionally, when I get better, I might be inclined to use them outside, but I have a long way to go in understanding lighting before I get there.

Let me know if you need more info!
~Nick

Art Scott

Here is my suggestion....this is as inexpensive as I think one can get and still get fantastic results......
first of all I do not prescribe optical slaves because too much can hinder them for example.....other peoples flashes and sunlight....reek havoc on their use.....I do suggest a decent radio Refequency type of flash trigger....like these 16 channel triggers for 39.99 on ebay......B&H and other retailers have the Vivitar 285HV for 89.99 each (i suggest 3-4) ..........
BackDrop Outlet is having a sale on backdrops andsome as loww as 99.99 for a 10x20 backdrop.....suggest you start with a solid black....great for formal and informal shots...can be colored with the use of theatrical gels of various colors..............

Lots of light stands and umbrella adapters on ebay for real cheap...just time to hunt them down....personally IO would try to not skimp on light stands too much...buy used and look for C-Stands (Century Stands), a lot of these have a movable boom like arm that allows for greater positioning of lights...............

Now I personally am trying to get a passel of SB 900's so that I can use the commander mode of my D300, the SB 900 also has a pc sync connector so I can fire with my RF flash triggers (linked above) if commander does not work. but them I am pressed into shooting in full manual mode, which is no problem as I came up shooting full manual in the film days and never gave up using my flash meter....I tried and did not like the Sigma 530Super for my style of shooting.....the Vivitar 285HV's would be a better match for me and I have owned several of them and they are a true work horse.........

Strobist.com would be a great place to get an education on flash usage and it might help with your decision....also Joe McNally's HOTSHOE DIARIES....would be of help to you also I think............

Photometric

I agree with Art, Invest in the SB900, because you can set up the 900 as a master or a slave to the D90. I am not sure, but don't think you can use the SB400 as a slave unfortunately.

If you start buying lights, they might conflict with the flashes, and you can accomplish much with the speedlights, especially if you learn how to control them. I suggest the book "NIKON Creative Lighting System FIELD GUIDE" which I'm reading now.

Additionally, you can use the D90 to set up two separate channels for different flash units, AND use multiple speedlights per channel. You could almost get a full studio's worth of lighting with a couple of speedlights. It's a way to get alot of flexibility with little investment and it's instantly expandable and all speedlights can use the ttl metering to determine proper exposure or you can throw the speed light to manual mode and get exposure that way as well.

Just a suggestion FWIW.

bandgeekndb

Well, that poses an interesting question, as I've seen arguments for both.

Is there any reason I would want to avoid flashes to invest in studio strobes, like alienbees? I know strobist has shown wonderful work with flashes, but I saw the price of the sb900 and cried a little...picking up 2 of those will cost as much as my D90 did!

I know I can pick up a AB800 for $280 new, and from what I've heard, they're ridiculously versatile.

So, someone mind explaining some pros vs. cons to flashes vs. studio strobes?

I appreciate the input, I've seen a lot of people on both sides of the fence, so I'd like to hear both sides, or see some comparisons.

Thanks!
~Nick

Photometric

My thoughts:

1. You can also look at the SB800, it's pretty powerful as well.

2. Alien Bees are supposed to be awesome, but you need a separate light meter as well for them.

3. You can't carry AlienBees into a party or wedding reception hall.

If you want the diffused look that a bee can give you, look at this:
http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=WTSL2KT

bandgeekndb

1) True, if I go that route, I'll try to find an SB800 used first, and be lucky

2) I only say ABs because I've seen that brand specifically, I know there are many others. And I'm open to flash strobes, I just want to see what I'd be losing by not going with studio strobes, or gaining by going with flashes, etc.

3) For the future, I agree that might be a problem, but I do not feel I'll be doing weddings ever. I don't like the stress of the day, I like relaxed shoots (I admire the wedding shooters I see, and how they deal with the stress of the day and make it look like it was a breeze). As I said, mainly looking to do portraiture with these lights.

Thanks!
~Nick

anonymouscuban

By no means am I an expert on this so take all this for what is worth. However, I recently found myself in the exact situation as you. I had an SB-600 speedlight but wanted to invest in more lighting so I can do some studio type work. I have found myself really enjoying the Boudoir thing, although that might simply be because I can take sexy pictures of my wife.

I debated over adding more Speedlights or going the route of strobes. My budget was about the same as yours. My experience was zero and I don't have a dedicated studio... yet. I wanted equipment that would grow with me and my skill but not break the bank. Getting one SB-800 or 900 would set me back close to $500. Add another one and I am now $1000. Then I would have to consider stands, modifiers, etc. so more money. My other nits were that the selection of modifiers for speedlights is limited and then you have to double them up if you need higher power. Could get really costly. The biggest consideration for the speedlight route was portability. However, when I really considered how often I am going to go outside with an entire light setup, I really couldn't justify the expense. Besides, I can later by a Vagabond pack if I want to take my show on the rode with my ABs.

I decided to go the route of strobes. I got lucky and happened across a pair of lightly used AB-400s with light stands and reversible umbrellas all for less than what an SB-900 would cost me. I was thinking of going with the AB-800s but the price was good on the 400s so I went with those thinking I can add some 800s later. I can tell you that I made the right choice. Here are a few shots from the first real go with these lights:







I don't own a light meter. I haven't found this to be a limitation, yet... I think once I add another light or two, a light meter will be critical. I think I did OK with setting things up by gut and then chimping a couple shots. One of the things I thought I would miss is the CLS from Nikon but I actually like the benefit of shooting all manual. I don't have to worry that the camera is going to decide how my shot should be lit and change things on me. Shooting manual has resulted in consistently lit shots which I have already found to be a huge benefit.

Ultimately you have to decide and I think you will be happy either way you go but my vote is for the Alienbee or another brand of strobes.

Art Scott

bandgeekndb wrote:

Well, that poses an interesting question, as I've seen arguments for both.

Is there any reason I would want to avoid flashes to invest in studio strobes, like alienbees? I know strobist has shown wonderful work with flashes, but I saw the price of the sb900 and cried a little...picking up 2 of those will cost as much as my D90 did!

I know I can pick up a AB800 for $280 new, and from what I've heard, they're ridiculously versatile.

So, someone mind explaining some pros vs. cons to flashes vs. studio strobes?

I appreciate the input, I've seen a lot of people on both sides of the fence, so I'd like to hear both sides, or see some comparisons.

Thanks!
~Nick

Yes the AB's are versitile...until you need to shoot on location...this has been my problem for a long time....it wasn't until recently that there was a good reliable inexpensive radio slave that I could use with a hotshoe flash.....I used to carry 4 studio flashes and over 1000' of extension cord with me all the time for location shooting......now all I need to do is make sure I have my batteries charged up and ready to go.....
My studio flashes are Paul Buff White Lightnings (predecessor to the AB's) and they work great.....but I am going to Europe before long and I had decided I would need at least 2 vagabond power kits....thoses things are around 20# each and I had not planned on renting a car in europe but I cannot back pack those batteries.........so I decided to go the hotshoe flash way.....and have been playing with my 1st SB900 as a remote shooting into a GOLD umbrella and for 1 or 2 people that will work great.....I just came home with SB900 #2 and have some experimenting to do tonight.......as I have said after reading HOTSHOE DIARIES I am convinced that I can do anything I want with hotshoe flashes that are wireless and communicate with the camera.....if I need to shoot in a situation that the commander mode will not work for me, I can whip out my radio triggers and still have the power of the SB900's in total manual mode..........
My local Best buy has SB600's in stock for a touch over $225....not sure of their capability in the commander mode.....but I wanted all the power I could muster in as small a package as possible to carry in my LowePro Trekker......I still have room for another lens or two and a few more flash units..........

bloomphotog

I have both - Speedlights and studio strobes. I would not recommend Speedlights as a primary light source for studio work. They are not designed for that type of use(look for the many threads on SB-900 overheating issues). They are also underpowered for use with large modifiers, not to mention the VERY long recycle times at full power(4 sec.). And the biggest issue for me: none of the great modifiers are designed to work with Speedlights. You can buy adapter systems($200), but you still won't get the same results.

For your budget, I would pick up an Elinchrom D-Lite4 ($700) set. Includes stands, really nice carrying cases, and 2 decent softboxes. The 400/ws heads have fast flash durations. Flash duration is what sets the the junk lights apart from the better ones. In studio environments, camera shutter speed is effectively replaced by the strobes flash duration. A lot of the cheaper strobes have very long flash duration that will cause a slew of sharpness problems. The D-Lite4 also has a great optical slave, that will work surprisingly well with your on camera flash.

If you can swing it, I would also pick up a nice Elinchrom Rotalux Softbox - somthing like the 39" Deep Octa would be a great start(one of my faves).

Don't get me wrong, Speedlights are great and I use them all the time - just not as the primary light source if I can avoid it.

bandgeekndb

anonymouscuban wrote:

I wanted equipment that would grow with me and my skill but not break the bank. Getting one SB-800 or 900 would set me back close to $500. Add another one and I am now $1000. Then I would have to consider stands, modifiers, etc. so more money. My other nits were that the selection of modifiers for speedlights is limited and then you have to double them up if you need higher power. Could get really costly. The biggest consideration for the speedlight route was portability. However, when I really considered how often I am going to go outside with an entire light setup, I really couldn't justify the expense. Besides, I can later by a Vagabond pack if I want to take my show on the rode with my ABs.

I think you put it best my friend. And I think I commented on your boudoir shots over in GF, but in case I didn't, I'll pay my compliments here. Wonderful shots!

And like you say, I really don't see myself going mobile any time soon. What I wonder is this: For ~$450, I can pick up 2 AB400s. Add a few modifiers, I'd be looking at $600ish. For that price, I could probably pick up a number of those Vivitar 285HVs and plenty of modifiers, and the triggers, and the batteries. Not so much for portability, but on just the cost of the light source, I can get 2 Vivitar's for the price of one AB. I'm not doing anything where I'd need 100% reliability that I'd have to invest in PWs, cheapo cactus triggers would be fine, and light stands can be a good bit lighter if it's just a flash and a softbox/umbrella.

Guess I need to reread some of Strobists stuff again and see what I come up with. I loved working with the studio strobes, but they're expensive compared to those $90 Vivitars!

Thanks,
Nick

bandgeekndb

bloomphotog: thanks for the great points. I forgot about the overheating issue, and the way I shoot, I like to do a lot of semi-burst shooting, to get the best chance of a natural, good expression on my subjects. A full 4sec recharge would certainly hurt that.

Kinda funny you mentioned the D-Lite4, as a deal on that set passed me by on the Flea Market. Happened to catch it, and after reading your post, I'm gonna go back and see if the offer is still there, if nothing else, just to know that it's an option.

Off to do more research, on both sides now I guess! This is what's so tough, it seems both sides have their reasons, I have to figure out what's best for me!

Thanks everybody!
~Nick

Photometric

Art Scott wrote:

My local Best buy has SB600's in stock for a touch over $225....not sure of their capability in the commander mode.....

The SB600 doesn't have a commander mode, it only has a slave mode. The SB800 and SB900 have commander modes.

bandgeekndb

Thanks photometric, appreciate the research!

So, if i was to go with flashes, I'd need some sort of trigger for each flash that wasn't an sb800 or sb900?

pathfinder

The 285HVs will accept a Wein peanut slave in their pc connection. Works quite well indoors as an optical trigger.

If you are the only shooter, optical slaves ( Wein peanut slaves ) are pretty reliable these days. But other shooters with P&S flashes can dump the charge in the capacitors in your speedlites just before you trigger your shutter.

LiquidAir

I do some studio shooting with hot shot strobe (Canon 580). There are a few disadvantages:

1. Power. I tend with my strobes at 1/2 to 1/4 power (for faster cycle times and less risk of overheating) which puts me in the ISO 400-800 range with even the more efficient large modifiers.

2. No bare-bulb. Many modifiers work better with a bare bulb. With the hot shoe strobes I am stuck with that Fresnel lens whether I want it or not.

3. No reflector. Often I would like the effect of a reflector (often gridded). None of the options for getting that look with hot shoe strobes are particularly great.

I do a lot of location shooting and for that the hot shoe strobes are handy because they are so portable. None-the-less, I'll be in the market for a set of studio-style strobes in the next year. Maybe the Paul Buff Einsteins with a Vagabond battery when/if they come out. Otherwise I'll be looking seriously at the Elinchrome Ranger series for the portable power.

bandgeekndb

So, from what I hear:

• It's very possible to shoot in the studio with flashes, but there are some significant disadvantages.
• The best case for flashes is if I see myself doing location shooting in the future, and want something that'll work in the studio too.

• It seems the main disadvantages with studio strobes are portability issues.
• As long as I avoid traveling far from outlets, studio strobes typically accept more modifiers, and avoid overheating issues.

Thank you all so much for your replies, I trust the words of people on this forum far more than words on a web page somewhere because of the reputation of this forum, and its members. While I'm sure The Strobist is a great site, I love the personal feedback of this site's members, and their experiences add a lot to my decision.

Sincerely,
Nick

Art Scott

The overheating issue, which is not actually an issue...it is a safety feature for the flash......can be fixed as stated by Joe McNally in Hotshoe Diaries....all it takes is one of the battery packs that holds 8 AA and connects with a power cord....or you disable the auto power off in the menu......I am getting a few of the battery packs from ebay.......
With the sophistication of the newer hotshoe flashes, the flash world is taking on a new dimension....with sites like STROBIST.com and photographer/Authors like Joe McNally showing what you can achieve with a hotshoe flash.............. the world is changing fast.....
As soon as Paul Buff (Cybersync's) or one of the other RF trigger companies get a truly i-ttl RF commanding unit on the market I will have no need for large studio flash units......as it is now I have enuff power to shoot large groups (upto 30-40 people) or weddings without any problems and that is all with battery powered hotshoe and handle mount flashes............that can be packed into one backpack along with both my D300's and lenses to far off locations where electricity doen't exist and a generator is also out of the question, without a ton of red tape and hassels.......like downtown most any city.........As I stated before I had my years with large cumbersome studio flashes and now I am ready to get some of the weight off and have a boat load more flexability............I litterally cringed shooting in around indoor swimming pools for swimsuit models for the Venus Swimsuit contests....running electrical cords every where I wanted a light to be........now that frying danger will be a thing of the past............no more worries.

bloomphotog

Art Scott wrote:

...as it is now I have enuff power to shoot large groups (upto 30-40 people) or weddings without any problems and that is all with battery powered hotshoe and handle mount flashes...

I think your application of strobe lighting is a little different from the OP's. He specifies boudoir lighting with a backdrop, not event/group coverage. For controllable, soft lighting you need nice big modifiers. In the studio, or on location, large modifiers are always the way to go for this type of work. A smaller light source is a compromise 90% of the time, IMO. With some forethought, it really is not as difficult as you think to bring the big boy toys on location. Here is an example from a shoot this past Sunday, for Anheuser-Busch.



For these shots I was using my 69" Rotalux and a BXRi 500 strobe(at approx. 85% power), plus a 70" gold reflector for a touch of fill. Only basic Lightroom adjustments have been made. No cloning, smoothing or retouching. I'm telling you...BIG is always better...............but that's just my opinion.

Oh yeah, bandgeek: Add a large double-sided reflector to my list of suggestions. Here's the one I used on the above shoot.

bandgeekndb

bloomphotog: When I saw you recommend the reflector, I looked back at your post of recommendations, and although i knew the price of the light set, I wanted to see the price of the softbox you mentioned...holy crap! Considering what's in the light package, that softbox is about as much as one light!

I appreciate the arguments for flashes, but I loved my short yet sweet time with studio strobes, and I don't see myself needing the versatility of flashes; the studio strobes seem more adept at handling modifiers, faster recycle time, etc. since I don't need all the portability of the flashes

So, assuming I go the route of studio strobes, how far would I be able to get with a kit like the elinchrom one bloomphotog mentioned, before I decided I needed to buy $250 softboxes???

I like the idea of the kit, but mainly that was so that I didn't have to spend time, or money right now searching for stands, modifiers, etc. In the future, I'm sure these additions will make my portraiture better, but basic use of the light is my first step. I don't know how useful the DVD with the Elinchrom kit is, but it's better than nothing to get me started.

Thanks,
Nick

Photometric

I was so inspired by this thread, I discussed with my wife, and got the approval, and bought an Alienbee kit today. One light, an umbrella and stand and carrying case. I know it's not much, but someone has to start somewhere.

This is my first strobe as I have some Halogen always on lights but decided I needed to begin working with a little more professional equipment.

Can't wait to begin posting pics with the strobe. I probably will use it in conjunction with the SB600 for the time being and possibly use the halogen for backlighting and use gels for any color correction.

bloomphotog

bandgeekndb wrote:

So, assuming I go the route of studio strobes, how far would I be able to get with a kit like the elinchrom one bloomphotog mentioned, before I decided I needed to buy $250 softboxes???

I like the idea of the kit, but mainly that was so that I didn't have to spend time, or money right now searching for stands, modifiers, etc. In the future, I'm sure these additions will make my portraiture better, but basic use of the light is my first step. I don't know how useful the DVD with the Elinchrom kit is, but it's better than nothing to get me started.

Thanks,
Nick

Truth be told, the kit softboxes are really small for my taste (which explains my 70" Rotalux). However, for the money, they will do a decent job for one head portraiture.

A better option for you may be a hand picked kit. You sound like me, in that you hate the idea of buying something you know will be replaced.

I went to B&H and created a wishlist, with my suggested gear for a killer 1-light Elinchrom kit. It includes the Deep Octa, which is the most versatile octabox I've ever used. I've also included the large deflector kit - these things work wonders...a must have.

I don't have time to explain the 39" Elinchrom Deep Octa at the moment, but to some Googling and you'll see what I mean...this thing has a following. And rightly so!

Here's the list: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/wl/2EA24F7F84

anonymouscuban

Photometric wrote:

I was so inspired by this thread, I discussed with my wife, and got the approval, and bought an Alienbee kit today. One light, an umbrella and stand and carrying case. I know it's not much, but someone has to start somewhere.

This is my first strobe as I have some Halogen always on lights but decided I needed to begin working with a little more professional equipment.

Can't wait to begin posting pics with the strobe. I probably will use it in conjunction with the SB600 for the time being and possibly use the halogen for backlighting and use gels for any color correction.

Cool. If you're going to use your SB600, you'll probably want to get a slave flash trigger. I just received this one and so far it works well from the few test shots I've taken.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Slave-Flash-Trigger-with-Sync-Socket-Optical-Wireless_W0QQitemZ350290914732QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518ef72dac#ht_3125wt_1165

If not, you won't be able to optically trigger the SB600 with your other AB strobe. And using your on camera flash or the SB600 to trigger the AB won't work either because of the pre-flash.

LiquidAir

bandgeekndb wrote:

So, assuming I go the route of studio strobes, how far would I be able to get with a kit like the elinchrom one bloomphotog mentioned, before I decided I needed to buy $250 softboxes???

If your experience is like mine, you will never have enough lighting gear. It is all about making due with what you have.

When you are on a budget you have to start backwards. First find a look you want to create. Then figure out which modifiers will get you there. Then decide which lights you need to drive them.

davev

I've read through this thread with interest cause I've been thinking about going to studio strobes.

Most everyone I know has Alien Bees. All of them sing praises about them.
The thing that I wonder is if those people ever used anything else.

So I've looked at the Alien Bees 400 kit for $600. It looks like a good starter kit,
and with cameras getting better at delivering "clean" photos at higher iso's,
I wonder if a person needs the power of an 800, or 1600 bee.

Anyway, I did a quick shoot of my niece's boyfriend last week, another photog was there with
his new set of lights from B&H. They are Impact 500's with stands, 2 umbrellas, and one softbox for $600.

I'm thinking about the Impact kit, but I'm not finding any reviews on them.
Have any of you used, owned, or heard anything about this kit?

LINK to the kit's page

This shot was taken with the lights on half power. I know very little about strobes, so this was just a quick/guess setting.
The vignetting was added in post.
iso 100, f9, 1/160

Photometric

A couple of really quick shots with my new AB800 (single) and umbrella are here

bandgeekndb

One last question to the lighting gurus: What can I do with just one strobe? I would optimally like to get 2 lights to start, but I don't know if that's gonna happen, so is it worth it to get 1 light, or should I wait till i can afford both together?

Again, thanks for all the input! I'm glad this discussion has inspired others to "light up their life" this holiday season, so to speak!

~Nick

ziggy53

bandgeekndb wrote:

One last question to the lighting gurus: What can I do with just one strobe? I would optimally like to get 2 lights to start, but I don't know if that's gonna happen, so is it worth it to get 1 light, or should I wait till i can afford both together?

Again, thanks for all the input! I'm glad this discussion has inspired others to "light up their life" this holiday season, so to speak!

~Nick

If I remember correctly you also have an SB-400? If so, you can use a single monolight and the speedlight in a simple 2 light system for key and fill. Add a reflector and now you have 3 effective sources.

Since the SB-400 does not have a manual mode, if you want to use the optical slave function of your monolight you'll have to fire the pre-flash and lock your exposure, then when you press the shutter button and take the actual capture, the main flash pulse of the SB-400 will fire the monolight.

Now just explore some basic lighting setups:

http://forum.montezucker.com/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=8344

anonymouscuban

ziggy53 wrote:

If I remember correctly you also have an SB-400? If so, you can use a single monolight and the speedlight in a simple 2 light system for key and fill. Add a reflector and now you have 3 effective sources.

Since the SB-400 does not have a manual mode, if you want to use the optical slave function of your monolight you'll have to fire the pre-flash and lock your exposure, then when you press the shutter button and take the actual capture, the main flash pulse of the SB-400 will fire the monolight.

Now just explore some basic lighting setups:

http://forum.montezucker.com/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=8344

Or you can pick up one of these optical slaves like I did. Works like a charm:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350290914732&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Art Scott

davev wrote:

I've read through this thread with interest cause I've been thinking about going to studio strobes.

Most everyone I know has Alien Bees. All of them sing praises about them.
The thing that I wonder is if those people ever used anything else.

I have used Novatrons and some other power pack kits as well a some other monoblocs.....all older stuff no longer made (aside from the Novatrons that are still being made).....I don't actually sing praise of the AB per se....but I do sing praise for Paul Buff and Company.......When I decided to buy a set of studio lights I spent several hours on the phone calling all of the flash manufacturers at the time and made acheck list of who was friendly and he acted like they could care les about my questions.....Paul Buff Inc...had several things going for them....
1-company in Nashville (got friends there)
2- gladly answered my questions and offered to send me manuals and such for free ......
3- has never given any indication that their customers do not matter
4- when I asked why they were discontinuing their line of umbrellas and brolly boxes I got a nice long explanation of how the PLM system was replacing both the other items......
5- and I got a Thank You for asking about the discontinuance of the items.......when I replace my White Lightnings it may very well be with AB's for studio use.

But my travel kit will still be hotshoe flash units as I do not want to tote vagabonds around for location power....and no matter whose lighting system you use if you go on location with a battery operated flash .... you lose the modeling lamp....so might as well just use hotshoe flash units..............