Maria at rest

TonyCooper

I still don't know if I'm shooting People or Street. I do know that people are usually the predominant focus of my photos, but that I like people who are a little more "gritty" than the photos I see in the People forum. Pretty teenagers, cute kids, and models don't really interest me as subjects. (Except for my cute grandchildren) Anyway, here's Maria:

thoth

TonyCooper wrote:

I still don't know if I'm shooting People or Street. I do know that people are usually the predominant focus of my photos, but that I like people who are a little more "gritty" than the photos I see in the People forum. Pretty teenagers, cute kids, and models don't really interest me as subjects. (Except for my cute grandchildren) Anyway, here's Maria:

Tony, you've done it this time! This is most definitely street or, in the very least, an excellent candid shot. There's probably no need to differentiate between the two. If I had my choice I'd like to see you closer to the subject but that's neither here nor there.

And, since my current drive is toward proper titling, I think you did a great job with that as well. Your title is specific enough to identify the image yet does not give away any but the most obvious details of the shot. Well done.

TonyCooper

thoth wrote:

Tony, you've done it this time! This is most definitely street or, in the very least, an excellent candid shot. There's probably no need to differentiate between the two. If I had my choice I'd like to see you closer to the subject but that's neither here nor there.

And, since my current drive is toward proper titling, I think you did a great job with that as well. Your title is specific enough to identify the image yet does not give away any but the most obvious details of the shot. Well done.

Thank you. Most of the time I'll shoot at least twice...on wide and one tight. In this case, I chose the wider view to carry across what Maria's involved in doing. Generally, I like tight-on-the-face shots, but sometimes you have to put the face in the proper setting.

Interesting you'd mention "candid". From what I've seen in the People forum, most of the shots are not candid. They're posed. I don't have anything against posed shots, but I prefer to take candid shots.

thoth

TonyCooper wrote:

Interesting you'd mention "candid". From what I've seen in the People forum, most of the shots are not candid. They're posed. I don't have anything against posed shots, but I prefer to take candid shots.

I generally think of the separation between this forum and "People" as candid versus posed as well. There's a bit of gray area there, though, and I think many of your head shots fall into it. I reckon that is what B.D. was trying to express in your previous postings. Without the context, which you provided with this shot, the candidness is lost on the viewer. I think that distinction is the one of the most important factors in determining if a shot belongs here or there.

Flyinggina

I love this photo, The whole story is right there in the picture.

I didn't feel led by the title so it is hard for me to get excited about whether you should have titled it or not.

I also love the PP, knowing as I type this that I will probably be in the minority. For me, the processing does not take away from the power of the photograph and I personally find it aesthetically pleasing.

This is a wall hanger, IMHO.

Virginia

TonyCooper

Did someone change the thread title? I'd swear I titled this just "Maria". Where'd the "at rest" come from?

Wil Davis

Title or no, it's an interesting picture. It rather surprised me to start with; at first glance I really though it was a corpse

I dunno about all the PP…

…I find it sort of gets in the way!

So, apart from that, it's great!

(Who needs a bloody title anyway?)

- Wil

Richard

TonyCooper wrote:

Did someone change the thread title? I'd swear I titled this just "Maria". Where'd the "at rest" come from?

Nope, unless it was evil hackers. Cool shot, though.

rutt

This captures a really interesting story. If it were mine, I'd turn down the "amount" or opacity of the HIRALOAM sharpening, maybe as much as 1/4th what you have here.

bdcolen

[/QUOTE]

I'm going to raises another issue about this photo - and it's probably going to make some people nuts but so be it:

On one level I really like the basic image - post processing aside. On the other hand I find something about a photo of a black woman sleeping on a load of watermelons more than a bit disturbing. There are certain stereotypes that are very difficult to deal with without getting into trouble, and that might be better left alone. How would we feel about a photo of an old Hasidic Jew, slumped asleep on a table covered with stacks of bills and coins? Or...

As I said, this is very touchy. And I am not saying that because things are touchy we shouldn't touch them. But we do need to be aware of their controversial nature, and consider why we're photographing them, and whether the image, however innocently conceived, will not do more harm than good.

Or am I crazy?

Nikonic1

bdcolen wrote:

Or am I crazy?

I think you're crazy. rofl:D:D Maria is clearly of Hispanic descent, those who are typically found farming these crops in many regions around North America. No shame in that IMO, this photo tells the story of the tiring, hard labor well.

I do understand your point BD, but in this case don't think it is represented. PP aside, I think the image and concept are spot on.

bdcolen

Nikonic1 wrote:

I think you're crazy. rofl:D:D Maria is clearly of Hispanic descent, those who are typically found farming these crops in many regions around North America. No shame in that IMO, this photo tells the story of the tiring, hard labor well.

I do understand your point BD, but in this case don't think it is represented. PP aside, I think the image and concept are spot on.

I may indeed by crazy - however...Unless you personally know Maria, I wouldn't be quite so sure about her race/ethnicity. If the sign said "Mary" or "Ethel" or "Georgia," I'm willing to be virtually everyone would guess she were African American - or Black - or whatever....

black mamba

What in the hell is going on here?

There are many things that offend me about the state of our society. I'm offended by the drug dealer ( Black, White...who cares ) that fosters the ugliest of demons upon us. I'm offended by the hoards of ILLEGAL immigrants that suck at the very lifeblood of our country. I'm offended at the gross negligence and ineptitude of the sorry Congress we suffer under.
The list goes on and on.

But if the concern over being " politically correct " or " racially insensitive " extends to a level where I'm afraid to take a picture of a slice of Americana for fear of offending someone, then the situation is even worse than I perceive it to be.

Tom

TonyCooper

I'm going to raises another issue about this photo - and it's probably going to make some people nuts but so be it:

On one level I really like the basic image - post processing aside. On the other hand I find something about a photo of a black woman sleeping on a load of watermelons more than a bit disturbing. There are certain stereotypes that are very difficult to deal with without getting into trouble, and that might be better left alone. How would we feel about a photo of an old Hasidic Jew, slumped asleep on a table covered with stacks of bills and coins? Or...

As I said, this is very touchy. And I am not saying that because things are touchy we shouldn't touch them. But we do need to be aware of their controversial nature, and consider why we're photographing them, and whether the image, however innocently conceived, will not do more harm than good.

Or am I crazy?[/quote]


Crazy is not the word I would use, but I don't want to be forcibly ejected from this forum.

Maria is Mexican. I know this for absolute sure because I talked to Maria's husband. Whenever possible, even shooting candids, I make sure the people don't object to being photographed. This photo was taken at the Plant City Farmer's Market, and there are many undocumented Mexicans selling produce there, and some are uncomfortable being photographed.

If I didn't snap any non-whites at the Plant City market, I might as well leave my camera at home. For that matter, if I limited myself WASP subjects, it would seriously restrict my photography anywhere in Florida.

You are always wittering away about "environment" in your posts. Ethnic types are the environment in this state and this country. I am absolutely gob-smacked that you don't know - and welcome - this.

I am further distressed to see that you lump all non-whites into "black" and that you feel that there is a negative stereotype involved in selling produce. There's a bigotry implied in that view that doesn't belong in this group.

bdcolen

[/QUOTE]

Uh, Tony? I did NOT say don't photograph non-whites. Period. And I find it absolutely fascinating that you twist my comment to imply that I said that. Nor did I say don't photograph non-whites in a farmer's market. Nor did I say DON'T PHOTOGRAPH anything. I raised a question, a question that I thought was worth considering. I also said some people might feel I was crazy for raising it.

And I still contend that in your original photograph - perhaps because of your post-processing in PS, Maria looks African American. Perhaps if you'd simply photographed the scene, and presented it without the post-processing, I would have seen from the beginning that she of Central American heritage, rather than African American.

Nikonic1

black mamba wrote:

What in the hell is going on here?

There are many things that offend me about the state of our society. I'm offended by the drug dealer ( Black, White...who cares ) that fosters the ugliest of demons upon us. I'm offended by the hoards of ILLEGAL immigrants that suck at the very lifeblood of our country. I'm offended at the gross negligence and ineptitude of the sorry Congress we suffer under.
The list goes on and on.

But if the concern over being " politically correct " or " racially insensitive " extends to a level where I'm afraid to take a picture of a slice of Americana for fear of offending someone, then the situation is even worse than I perceive it to be.

Tom

Post of the year - 2009 dunnodunno bowbow

Nikonic1

You could have made the damn picture B&W and she doesn't look African American. The instant thought of an image of a person of color sitting in stack of watermelons = racism isn't correct IMO and borders on lunacy. Frankly, the thought never would have crossed my mind until you brought it up.

I simply took Tony's image for what is was. A fantastic shot of real life, a woman (no color involved) who was tired and worn down from hours and years of hard work. Very nice job Tony.

TonyCooper

Sorry to make such a production about this, but I'm genuinely angry about BDs comments. Now he's alleged that my the post-processing makes Maria look African-American. You be the judge. I didn't retain the .psd file so I don't remember the steps, but all steps were done to the whole image. To me, the original is too flat-looking. I needed the colors to pop.

Here's the original converted from .dng to a .jpg without any post-processing:




And here's my post-processed version.

Nikonic1

The PP is definitely bordering on overdone and will be for a lot of people. Personally, I think it really adds to the grittiness of the image and Maria's overall look of a life of tiring hard work. I like it.

Richard

TonyCooper wrote:

I am further distressed to see that you lump all non-whites into "black" and that you feel that there is a negative stereotype involved in selling produce. There's a bigotry implied in that view that doesn't belong in this group.

To confuse an African-American with a Hispanic (or a man with a woman, as has happened on occasion here) is merely a mistake, not a sign of bigotry (or misogyny).

Miguel Delinquento

Over the line
Richard (and Tony),
While I agree with your reasoning here Richard, I don't blame Tony for being upset. I tend to respect highly the critique of others in Dgrin, but this went over the line. It is based on false assumptions and permeated with the toxic stench of political correctness. BD's advice was ridiculous, and to me--mean spirited.

There's an implication that Tony is either oblivious to the [non]connotations of this image, unintelligent about his subject, malevolent in intent, or just one ignorant shooter who cannot possibly produce a good shot because he uses color and post processing.

All of these are untrue.

This is an excellent shot, made more excellent due to Tony's post processing and knowledge about the subject. Simply put, the image is more compelling as the result of his extra effort.

One reason I haven't participated in this forum much is that it seems like one big community college clique. There is a fairly consistent tone of image criticism here that is very orthodox in nature and frequently misplaced. As far as I know there is no Talmud for street photography. Nor are there high priests. Yet some driving values I perceive in this forum (such as B&W=Good; Color=Bad) are anti-creative. And petty. They're pretty dysfunctional too if the idea here is to inspire, learn, and educate.

It's wonderful to provide constructive criticism in all these forums. This goal is easier to implement when the forum is more welcoming and less prejudicial.

M

Richard wrote:

To confuse an African-American with a Hispanic (or a man with a woman, as has happened on occasion here) is merely a mistake, not a sign of bigotry (or misogyny).

TonyCooper

I've been thinking about this term "over-processed". I think that it's a misnomer. I think a more appropriate term is "wrongly-processed.
Many photos need some processing, but processing is a series of steps. We don't "over-process"; we simply wrongly-process sometimes in one step or another.

In this case, I think the blacks needed to be blacker, the wood needed to be more distinct, and the watermelons' color needed some pop. Those steps, in my opinion, made the photo more appealing.

However, I use CS4 and the processing is global rather than specific if a mask isn't used. The problem with this photo is that the skin tones were adversely affected. I don't remember the steps I did, but I think it was a result of boosting contrast. Maria's skin is not uniform and there are some light-through-the-tree shadowing. The added contrast darkened some areas a bit much.

I have Lightroom, but don't use it for processing. Perhaps the use of the Adjustment Brush to lessen the effect of the increased contrast on the skin areas would have resulted in a less controversial image.

The problem for me is that I personally like this so-called "over-processed" look on some photographs. As I work, I'm aiming for what pleases me even if others think it's a bit too dramatic.

It's not a personal style because I don't go for this look on all images.
Sometimes out-of-the-box realism is my aim.

michswiss

For what it's worth, the original version does more for me than the PP version. No need to make the colours pop, the story the image contains is more than strong enough.

rutt

OK, I do know something about PP, if not about cultural sensitivity.

Usually when you add so much contrast, you also need to increase color somehow. Dan Margulis' classic workflow would probably use an overlay blend in LAB to get more color intensity to match the increase in contrast. Also it looks to me like you used kind of a heavy hand in HIRLOAM sharpening.

One really good trick that Dan has been advocating recently is to keep a duplicate after color balancing and cropping but before any other moves. Then you can layer the original and the PP version, play with opacity, and find some happy medium. I find I often get carried away somewhat and dialing back a little (or a lot) at the end is a great option (and also gives me perspective in what my PP did to the image.)

Wineman

A great image! Personally I don't think it needs that much of PP but, I am not bothered by it, her skin does look dirtier in the PP version, giving it more texture to all the image.

I like it a lot.

Thanks for sharing... and personally I didn't get the whole argument of the watermelons... nor do I care to understand it. For me its all about documenting things as they are, but I might be wrong...

Z.

photosbyles

as luck would have it, this is the first image I've looked at since joining the forum yesterday. I don't tend to look a photographs and wonder about the photographers intent beyond creating a stunning image. I don't care about their/your politico-cultural viewpoint beyond the quality and movement of the image.

to my taste, this image is perfect as Tony created it. when I looked at it, I thought more of the heat of summer and a long boring day at a roadside fruit stand or farmer's market. the contrastiness made me think first of a HDR image, but without the animated look. I personally enjoy a highly contrasted image. I often see similar opportunities in NC no matter the race/ethnicity/sex/age of the subject.

and since I don't know anyone here yet... well done sir.