Focus Issues

JSPhotography

I am having a little trouble with shooting indoor show(horse) jumping. I cannot use flash. I am using a 70-200 F2.8 on a tripod with either an Xti or a 30D. Normally I use center point(on the horse) in AI mode or Servo, not sure the differance. I have also tried using the top point and putting it on the riders face but I have found this very difficult. I have been shooting Aperture priority, playing with it(2.8 - 4.0) to get shutter speeds up but worried about getting too wide open and losing depth of field. I have the ISO pushed all the way up(1600). As they work around the arena the 70 - 200 is about perfect, I can fill the viewfinder up close and far away but I leave a little space so I don't cut something out around the edges. I am also finding I do not want to crop much at the 1600 ISO.

Now, the problem, soft shots, horse face sharp/rider soft, rider sharp/horse face soft. I have been very surprised at the amount of sharpness in some of the backgrounds. Suggestions?

adbsgicom

At f/4 at 200mm (really 320mm) you don't have that much DOF. You only have about 6" if you are shooting from about 20'. Check out this little table to help you understand what ranges you get for various stops and distances. That would certainly explain the rider in focus, horse face soft....

http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

JSPhotography

Right, I have looked at the charts previously. I'm not at 200mm and 20' like your example. The close up shots I am at 70mm and not closer than say 20' and the far shots I am at about 170mm and 50' to 70'. This weekend I can pace it off to get a more accurate estimation of the distances. I'm guessing that both my 20' and 50' may be on the short side. In both cases though I would be getting at least 4' of DOF at F4. Now, how do I get that 4' on the horse and riders face? Other photographers shooting horses have to have figured out a technique. Do I use the center spot and keep it on the horses neck?

JSPhotography

Ahhh, that effect of the sensor I am not calculating in properly. Ok, getting closer to the problem

divamum

If you go to the sports forum and search the words "hunter" "jumper" and "eventing" you'll find several threads where a lot of different equestrian shooting stuff gets discussed, with lots of contributions from Hoofclix who is an extremely fine professional equestrian photographer.

In general when I shoot over fences (I'm an ex-rider, but occasionally go and shoot stuff for fun from time to time if I get a chance) I'll generally prefocus on the fence, ensure I have enough shutter speed to freeze the action (1/200 is pretty much a minimum), and am stopped down enough to give me reasonable depth of field to catch horse and rider. It'll be tougher in indoor arena light, of course, so I guess you'll just need to push your ISO to give you the latitude you need. I personally find a tripod rather limiting - I'll sometimes use a monopod, but I really want to be able to adjust more (and more quickly) than a tripod will allow. YMMV.

Maybe HOofie will see this and respond too. Good luck with it!

JSPhotography

Thanks for the tip Deva. I checked out those threads previously and they gave me some good info but no help with my indoor issues. I think I'm running right on the edge of DOF and freezing action. I'm wondering if I should under expose everything to keep my speeds up and some DOF? Then lighten up in PP. I'm worried that with that technique and the ISO maxed out at 1600 everything will be too noisy for Noise Ninja to fix.

Prefocus - I done that when the auto focus won't pick up with some success. It seems kinda risky though. I go to into it as a last resort. When do you go to prefocus and why?

divamum

When shooting jumping, I prefocus most of the time. My first experiences shooting horses was with a manual focus film camera, and it was for sure the best way to nail it with that equipment. I tend towards it out of habit as much as anything.

With AF it's a little triicker (and modern, AF cameras make it hard to focus manually because the viewfinder doesn't give you any help). I think the key is to make sure you're stopped down enough to guarantee that your subject will be within the clear area afforded by the depth of field.

I use ordinary, 1-shot af - not AI or Servo which I have found impossible to make work for me. I prefocus on the bar or wing standard of the jump I plan to take (guessing approximately where the apex of the arc in the air will likely be), keep the shutter half depressed, look away from the camera to see where the horse is about 4-5 strides out, use my ears to count and listen for the silence that indicates takeoff, and snap the shutter at what feels like the right time; sometimes I will refocus exactly at takeoff, but if the aperture is stopped down enough to ensure that you have 6+ft of depth of field around the center of the fence (both vertically and horizontally from where you're standing), it should be fine.

I also like shooting head-on when I can - doesn't work for everything, but I think it can create some pleasing shots and it makes it easier to time (you're looking at the takeoff in the viewfinder no matter how zoomed in you are!) and get an extra split second to refocus if necessary, even though if you've prefocused on the bar of the jump with 4+ feet of dof, you won't need to.

It's beginning to sound like you just don't have enough light to be able to keep a medium aperture AND high shutter speed in indoor arena lighting. Not sure there's a solution for that other than pushing your ISO as far as it will go, but if you underexpose you WILL get noise when you boost so that may not be acceptable to you.

One thing that may help is to shoot loose and crop down in post. The shorter focal length won't need as high a shutter speed, and you will have more dof even if you open up the aperture to gain light.

JSPhotography

Thanks again Deva, this is my only opportunity to discuss this stuff with people that understand. Kinda makes it tough for me to get through the learing curve.

I have been using the AI/servo and tracking the horse coming into the jump and then timing my shot. I have been doing this to insure the auto focus has plenty of time. I have the timing pretty much down at this point but I was thinking of trying some burst this weekend to see if it improves my results. I do get a few early and late. The tripod does not seem to be hurting me and I'm thinking it should help a little. A lot easier on my arms with such a long day. I'm wondering if I should add using my remote release also?

I worry about the shooting loose and cropping. I do stay out just a little so I can concentrate on my focus point staying lit and my timing. I set up in a spot that lets me shoot about 5 jumps. I have time between jumps to adjust my zoom to frame the next jump the way I want and then get back on the horse. When I have to crop quite a bit in comes the noise from the high ISO.

This weekend I will be using a 30D instead of my Xti. I'm hoping it helps.

divamum

Can you post some of the shots you're taking? It may make it easier to help look for solutions to see the actual exif and the results (as well as the kind of light you're in).

One thing I should have mentioned earlier - use the center point whenever possible - it's more sensitive than the surrounding ones (which is why the top one isn't helping you much).

Not sure of the resolution of your cameras - I shoot an xsi which has plenty of resolution to crop down; no problem at all shooting loose for me, but YMMV. If the tripod helps you, fair enough, but if you're slow enough that you can't handhold the 200mm end, you'll also be too slow to freeze motion in the airs and the subject will be blurring even if the lens is held still (which is why the remote probably won't offer much to help either).

FWIW, here are a couple of shots using the methods I described above. Yes, they're outside so I wasn't fighting to keep my shutter speeds up as I'm sure you are indoors, but they still show the results of how I focus and use DOF etc.

200mm; 1/2500; iso 800; f4.0. From about 40-50ft away, I guess.



200mm; 1/500; iso 400; f7.1. I don't remember exactly how close I was, but looking at the shallower depth of field even though the aperture is smaller tells me I must have been a lot closer - I''m guessing probably around 25-30ft. I was outside the ring.

Mox

Yes, please post some shots. If you include your EXIF data that will help us to help you, too. I've done a fair amount of equestrian work in all kinds of lighting. Poorly lit arenas are a definite challenge.

As Diva said, If you're shooting shutter speeds slow enough to require a tripod, you're probably shooting too slow to freeze the motion of every part of the horse. This will depend on your angle, relative to the motion, too.

You may also need to consider moving up to a camera body with better high ISO &/or servo performance. I also agree with Diva that pre-focusing on the jump might help you. I do track and shoot bursts sometimes, but I find that my 40D just didn't do that very well. I upgraded to the 7D when it was released, and have been very happy with its performance.

catspaw

For indoor jumping, you really will need a camera body with a better ISO rating. Great lens you have, but action + low light indoors for horses is just a PITA. Been there! tried! until I got the D3, I never got any results I was happy with.

JSPhotography

From last shoot, my first post actually

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I don't think this worked

JSPhotography

OK, so it worked but my watermark came with it.

adbsgicom

To avoid the watermarking issues, create an obscure unlisted gallery and don't watermark in that gallery and use those here. Just put your © in the corner in that gallery.

JSPhotography

2nd try

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JSPhotography

Critique please, check out the eyes on this horse

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