Direct Deposit

M-W

I got the word on Direct Deposit and was directed to filling out the Tax Information on my Pro Account - all fine and useful - until one of the very last check boxes that REQUIRES granting permission to Smugmug to DEBIT my account for any amount they feel is justified.

Is this legal? Is this ethical?

Needless to say, I've got a real problem with this requirement. That is the very reason that I do not use auto drafting for any bills - I've personally seen too many horror stories about catastrophic overdrafts.
How about an explanation?

Thanks,
- Mike

takeflightphoto

M-W wrote:

I got the word on Direct Deposit and was directed to filling out the Tax Information on my Pro Account - all fine and useful - until one of the very last check boxes that REQUIRES granting permission to Smugmug to DEBIT my account for any amount they feel is justified.

Is this legal? Is this ethical?

Needless to say, I've got a real problem with this requirement. That is the very reason that I do not use auto drafting for any bills - I've personally seen too many horror stories about catastrophic overdrafts.
How about an explanation?

Thanks,
- Mike

That's NOT at all what it says. Here's the quote, with my emphasis added.

"I grant SmugMug permission to deposit my profits earned through SmugMug into the account indicated. I also authorize SmugMug to make any necessary debit entries or adjustments for entries made in error to my account."

They in no way say that they will debit for "any amount that they feel is justified."

M-W

takeflightphoto wrote:

That's NOT at all what it says. Here's the quote, with my emphasis added.

"I grant SmugMug permission to deposit my profits earned through SmugMug into the account indicated. I also authorize SmugMug to make any necessary debit entries or adjustments for entries made in error to my account."

They in no way say that they will debit for "any amount that they feel is justified."

Semantics - but that is exactly the same result. If they "believe" they have made a clerical error - whether true or not - this gives the right to make any corrections they feel are justified based upon their perceived error. No check and balance, no subsequent permission request to make the correction.
I'm not that trusting. I had a friend hit with a $100K+ autodraft for their electric bill. Clerical error? You bet, but guess who got the short end of it?

takeflightphoto

M-W wrote:

Semantics - but that is exactly the same result. If they "believe" they have made a clerical error - whether true or not - this gives the right to make any corrections they feel are justified based upon their perceived error. No check and balance, no subsequent permission request to make the correction.
I'm not that trusting. I had a friend hit with a $100K+ autodraft for their electric bill. Clerical error? You bet, but guess who got the short end of it?

I'm guessing your friend made the news, and the account was settled just fine.

If you are so mistrusting, then just don't do direct deposit at all. On the other hand, why should they trust you to return any overages that might be paid?

On second thought, if you are so mistrusting, why do business with them at all? Why not just keep your money in a sock? Do your printing at Walgreens and pay with your jar of pennies.

Andy

M-W wrote:

but guess who got the short end of it?

This is funny! We've been in business 7+ years, have hundreds of thousands of loyal, fanatical customers, pros and their customers who love us, year after year... this wouldn't be possible if we 'gave the short end of it' to our customers.

These are industry standard ACH terms.

M-W

takeflightphoto wrote:

I'm guessing your friend made the news, and the account was settled just fine.

If you are so mistrusting, then just don't do direct deposit at all. On the other hand, why should they trust you to return any overages that might be paid?

On second thought, if you are so mistrusting, why do business with them at all? Why not just keep your money in a sock? Do your printing at Walgreens and pay with your jar of pennies.

why? Because they don't give you any other option!

Nice to know I can post a legitimate concern here and have adults respond without resorting to unwarranted insults.

M-W

Andy wrote:

This is funny! We've been in business 7+ years, have hundreds of thousands of loyal, fanatical customers, pros and their customers who love us, year after year... this wouldn't be possible if we 'gave the short end of it' to our customers.

These are industry standard ACH terms.

Andy - thanks for responding.

Andy

M-W wrote:

Andy - thanks for responding.

This is a feature that's been requested (no, demanded) by pros for a long time. We're rolling it out and trying to keep it really simple - and I really do thank you for your input, it's quite important to us. The language we're using is nothing different than you'd find on an insurance company site, or a Gym, etc etc.

I hope this helps alleviate some concerns!

takeflightphoto

M-W wrote:

why? Because they don't give you any other option!

Nice to know I can post a legitimate concern here and have adults respond without resorting to unwarranted insults.

Sure, you have another option. Paper checks. Of course then they would be trusting YOU to return any overpayment without any recourse.

And as far as insults go, you were the one that tossed out the question of whether it was legal or ethical in your very first post. I may have problems with some of SM's processes, but these are straight-up guys and I'd never question their legal standing nor their ethics.

HoofClix

I'm certainly looking forward to Direct Deposit after several years of paper checks. I have no problem with the caveat that you mention, as I know it's intent is to allow Smugmug to correct for any refunds given back or true mistakes made. In the past these have been taken care of by just deducting any error from my next montly check...

I also wouldn't have stuck around here so long had I ever found even the slightest reason to question Smugmug's integrity.

Would also have a very hard time taking $100k from my account anyway..

nipprdog

M-W wrote:

I got the word on Direct Deposit

Did I miss something, I didn't get the word.

Andy

nipprdog wrote:

Did I miss something, I didn't get the word.

http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2009/12/11/card-keyword-upgrades-direct-deposit/

You'll want to subscribe to our Release Notes blog, so that you don't miss a single update from SmugMug http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/ at the bottom, there's a link for Entries (RSS) - put that in your favorite feed reader.

We've also put notices in with the past few check printings.

laslo

HoofClix wrote:

I'm certainly looking forward to Direct Deposit after several years of paper checks. I have no problem with the caveat that you mention, as I know it's intent is to allow Smugmug to correct for any refunds given back or true mistakes made. In the past these have been taken care of by just deducting any error from my next montly check...

I also wouldn't have stuck around here so long had I ever found even the slightest reason to question Smugmug's integrity.

Would also have a very hard time taking $100k from my account anyway..

I am looking forward to DD also. No problem with Terms and Conditions

tjk60

M-W wrote:

why? Because they don't give you any other option!

Nice to know I can post a legitimate concern here and have adults respond without resorting to unwarranted insults.

Have your check direct depositied from work? If so, check your agreement, almost every company I know has this right....

Andy

Woop

HoofClix

Got the same type of message myself from the Countess of Cash herself!!!

Also checked the direct deposit agreement I have with my other source of income, a company that I own, and what do you know, tjk60 is right, I signed such an agreement to have the right to let my own company take all of my money back if I, or they, see fit..
D

mbellot

Hey Andy I got two messages...

Does that mean I'll get two deposits?

Andy wrote:

Woop

Andy

mbellot wrote:

Hey Andy I got two messages...

Does that mean I'll get two deposits?

haha

But you shouldn't have gotten two - do you by chance have two accounts? Or did you change names this year?

mbellot

Andy wrote:

haha

But you shouldn't have gotten two - do you by chance have two accounts? Or did you change names this year?

No and no.

One Pro account, everything the same since May 2007 when I first signed up (except the CC exp. date I had to update).

The messages came ~ 100 minutes apart and are (from what I can tell) identical in every way except the time sent.

Andy

mbellot wrote:

No and no.

One Pro account, everything the same since May 2007 when I first signed up (except the CC exp. date I had to update).

The messages came ~ 100 minutes apart and are (from what I can tell) identical in every way except the time sent.

OK, sorry about that! As you know, we hate spam, so I apologize for this. Haven't heard any other reports so I can't do anything much about it but I will mention that you got two....

mbellot

Andy wrote:

OK, sorry about that! As you know, we hate spam, so I apologize for this. Haven't heard any other reports so I can't do anything much about it but I will mention that you got two....

No prob.

As long as I get two deposits we're good.

mlee

Andy wrote:

OK, sorry about that! As you know, we hate spam, so I apologize for this. Haven't heard any other reports so I can't do anything much about it but I will mention that you got two....

I also got the same thing twice. About the same time apart.

Mike

Andy

mlee wrote:

I also got the same thing twice. About the same time apart.

Mike

Engineer tells me it's a known issue, we'll fix it for next time, sorry!

NostalgicDad

Got my cash today. Most excellent!

mbellot

NostalgicDad wrote:

Got my cash today. Most excellent!

Same here, but for some reason I only got one. :cry


rofl

Gary Peterson Photography

Thanks for making my life easier!
I have to say, I love the convenience of direct deposit! Thanks for making the rollout painless!

Hog Leg

"Trust Me".
While I use direct deposit other places, I'm not willing to give you "all access" to my account as the check boxes at the end of the form says. I think your acceptance verbiage needs to be rewritten.

I am always amazed at the willingness of people to trust anyone that says "Trust Me".

I sent an e-mail to Toni and Kim when this first was announced expressing my concerns and thier solution was to charge me 3 dollars per check and I would need to contact them when I wanted a check.

Thanks for the Forum

Hog Leg

Andy

Hog Leg wrote:

While I use direct deposit other places, I'm not willing to give you "all access" to my account as the check boxes at the end of the form says. I think your acceptance verbiage needs to be rewritten.

I am always amazed at the willingness of people to trust anyone that says "Trust Me".

I sent an e-mail to Toni and Kim when this first was announced expressing my concerns and thier solution was to charge me 3 dollars per check and I would need to contact them when I wanted a check.

Thanks for the Forum

Hog Leg

Ow, I'm so sorry that our 7+ years of doing the right thing 110% of the time for our customers and our cusotmers' customers hasn't earned us your trust, but hopefully you'll change your mind one day. I can't say how long the $3 check fee will be held, it's very costly for us to do checks.

How would you have us change the language? Got a suggestion?

Hog Leg

"Trust Me".

Andy wrote:

Ow, I'm so sorry that our 7+ years of doing the right thing 110% of the time for our customers and our cusotmers' customers hasn't earned us your trust, but hopefully you'll change your mind one day. I can't say how long the $3 check fee will be held, it's very costly for us to do checks.

How would you have us change the language? Got a suggestion?

Look, you guys take this personally, the fact of the matter is this is business. Just because you say that you would never do anything that was not ethical is great. The reality of this is anyone that gives you access to there account has done just that, give you full access to withdraw funds, in any amount. If what I'm telling you isn't true then show me documentation proving me wrong and I will sign up today.

The research that I have done on direct deposit is that this cannot be forced upon an individual and there are federal law that prohibit this: Please see this link: http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/electronic_fund_transfer_wages.html

Please understand, I love what Smugmug has provided for me, I appreciate all of the help that you have provided to me in building my web page, just don't get upset when I disagree with a policy that you are trying to implement that is forcing me to doing something i strongly oppose. I understand what you are trying to accomplish and I want you to cut cost as much as possible. As I stated to Toni and Kim, I actually like Direct deposit but I will not open my account up to you unrestricted. I would be stupid to that wouldn't I?

You ask me what I would do, I would find away to deliver what you are after, the ability to correct a mistake, and away to deliver what I need, security on my account. Your bank might be a good place to start.

mbellot

Andy wrote:

How would you have us change the language? Got a suggestion?

IANAL (thank god!) but what about a simple stipulation that any amount withdrawn cannot exceed the previous amount deposited without the account holder's consent.

That way, if its an error you can reverse it - up to and including the full amount if needed.

It would also be nice to have an email alert before the intended withdrawal to explain what is going on...

Andy

Hog Leg wrote:

Look, you guys take this personally,

No, I take it sincerely in hopes of trying to improve things if they can be.

Thank you for your input.