However, we're swinging the bat with our eyes closed here. The ideal situation would be simply to have a profile of the actual press. I suppose we’re doing our best without that, but why do I keep hearing that way madness lies?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but I was a beta reader for Dan Margulis' PP5E and he goes into quite some depth about compensating for expected press variances. Perhaps Blurb is way off the scale? I don't trust my eyes very much in preparing prints and so far it's worked well for me with good inkjets. I was thinking the same idea might work with Blurb. I suppose the real danger of my approach with them danger is over inking.
Custom CMYK: if you convert to custom CMYK, PS shows you an inking curve. Pretty entertaining.
I just gotta ask... if you're going to be that picky about the reproduction, why choose Blurb?
Cheap. If at least all the photographers would sign up to buy one, we might consider a different press. And think of the glory if I can figure out a good prepress technique for such a sloppy press.
Actually, there is one more point. Most of the images for this book are B&W and of the color shots, most of them are not really what I'd call accurate. I think the B&W challenge might be surmountable with clever use of the color inks and a little betting on the safe (cool) side. Most of the color shots will look OK even with slight press variances. There are two or three where we might be sorry.
If I understand your question correctly, here goes: When a press is fingerprinted, they test and record all the pertinent specs like dot gain, trapping, speed of the cylinders, neutrality tests, etc., and the data would normally be built into a profile. But we don’t know any of that info. So, without a profile, we must rely on their printer to get it right, which means he will either apply his profile or at least apply a curve to clean up the gain. When you’re making your custom files, you won’t know how a 50% dot is going to print. Will they curve it to keep sharp, or will it gain over 30% and end up printing as a 65% dot? These presses/inks are capable of lots of gain.
It’s not that Blurb is off the scale, it’s any printer with these presses. They can print excellent quality, but only by controlling the numbers game, just as you read from Margulies. But we just don’t have the numbers. And they can’t give us the numbers since they don’t know where your books will print. Which plant? Which press?
As far as I know, all you can do is what you're already doing.
It’s a difficult situation. To the best of my knowledge, the control you want just isn’t available without a profile. And when you start guessing at dot gain amounts for each color, that way madness lies.
Any chance Blurb has someone here?
Jim
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
OK, not many people have committed to buying a book. I can count in one hand.
With that few takers, maybe there is a better alternative to Blurb: an edition of high quality prints. I can print on my own printer and/or we can make available from smugmug somehow. There might even be a way to get a portfolio to hold them.
OK, not many people have committed to buying a book. I can count in one hand.
With that few takers, maybe there is a better alternative to Blurb: an edition of high quality prints. I can print on my own printer and/or we can make available from smugmug somehow. There might even be a way to get a portfolio to hold them.
Opinions?
Blurb prints on demand. You only have to print one. And you can do a minimal mark-up or none if this is not meant to be a money maker, but a way for Dgrinners to get a copy of the 60 images for themselves.
Others in the community may want copies besides to entrants. IMHO
Don
Don Ricklin - Gear: Canon EOS 5D Mark III, was Pentax K7
'I was older then, I'm younger than that now' ....
My Blog | Q+ | Moderator, Lightroom Forums | My Amateur Smugmug Stuff | My Blurb book Rust and Whimsy. More Rust , FaceBook.
I received my copy of B.D.'s Blurb Book. It's really nice to have these images in a book!
The book was relatively expensive given the production quality. I wonder if there is a better publisher we could use?
I dug around in this thread and found this excellent post. In short, affordable low volume book publishing uses a less-than-wonderful process. I wonder how many of us would actually buy this book? The answer is relevant to whether there are better options.
I'm interested in people's thoughts about a few other book publishing issues:
I am interested in taking on the project of producing the book, but
only if I have the final say on prepress issues. I promise not to "repair" Richard's selective color shot, but I don't promise not to make changes that I know will look good in print even though the artist can't see this on his/her monitor.
Should we include all the images?
What about text/captions? I was thinking about biographical blurbs or something.
B. D. just got his copies of his book - a hard cover and a paper back - and is deeply, seriously, disappointed. While the cover image on both copies is quite good, if a bit on the blue side, the images inside the book look as though they were drowned in ink. Every image is waaaaay too dark - talk about blocked shadows. Comparing the printed version to the on-screen version - or, for that matter, the cover image with the same image inside the book - is really shocking. I'm in the midst of a back and forth with Blurb now, and obviously want the book reprinted. What worries me is that I would guess that every copy is a crap shoot.
I am somewhat surprised as I've had Blurb do wedding books and they've worked out quite well. The color images have been reasonably close to what they should be,and while the black and whites all had a tint, they were good in terms of the tonality. But this? Awful!
<<< an edition of high quality prints. I can print on my own printer ... . There might even be a way to get a portfolio to hold them. >>>
FWIW, I think this is a really good idea. Custom made inkjet prints are hard to beat. They will blow the socks off of the photo book prints. I wish someone had invented an affordable desktop binder, as that would seal the deal. Kinko’s has GBC or Wire-O binding and it’s not too expensive. The downside is they look kind of like corporate office binding. The missing link is binding OR a portfolio that fits the prints and presents them well.
But most important of all, it gives you back control over the tones in the prints. And that is worth its weight in gold, in my opinion.
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
B. D. just got his copies of his book - a hard cover and a paper back - and is deeply, seriously, disappointed. While the cover image on both copies is quite good, if a bit on the blue side, the images inside the book look as though they were drowned in ink. Every image is waaaaay too dark - talk about blocked shadows. Comparing the printed version to the on-screen version - or, for that matter, the cover image with the same image inside the book - is really shocking. I'm in the midst of a back and forth with Blurb now, and obviously want the book reprinted. What worries me is that I would guess that every copy is a crap shoot.
I am somewhat surprised as I've had Blurb do wedding books and they've worked out quite well. The color images have been reasonably close to what they should be,and while the black and whites all had a tint, they were good in terms of the tonality. But this? Awful!
I have now had a number of back and forth's with Blurb, corresponding with people at two different levels, and this appears to be the bottom line:
It's a crap shoot.
They acknowledge using a number of different printers, which means you never know which printer or press is doing your book, did the one before, or the one after;
They acknowledge that they have real difficulty printing images with deep shadows;
They say that the best way to avoid color shift is to submit the images as PNG files(!);
They say you should purchase a "proof" book before deciding to order multiple copies - which is to say buy a book at full price to see if it's any good. If it isn't, good luck;
They point out that what you see on the screen will NOT match what you see in print;
They say that the cover print and the print inside of the same image will NOT match up because the two use different paper and different presses.
Actually, I'll let them say it...
"Umayyah's asked me to take a look at your incident to see if I can offer some additional feedback for you.
You asked "where do you tell people that printing books with you is a total crap shoot?" and I think that's something I can try to clarify a bit. We use the HP Indigo 5500 for most of our print work. This is a digital printer, not the traditional offset printer you might use if you were able to print runs of several thousand copies. Admittedly, traditional offset will be superior print quality.
What Blurb can offer, is a print quality that is close to, but won't match traditional offset, and we can do it in a matter of days, instead of weeks. Because we can run a very large volume of orders with short turnaround, we're able to offer prices to print one or two completely customized bound "real" books that would have been unheard of just 5 years ago. Print on demand technology has improved dramatically in a short time and become significantly more accessible, making it a great option for the most basic consumer to advanced and pro users.
That said, there are significant limitations.
1. We use four color printing, not black and white printing. Getting a perfectly calibrated balance of cyan, magenta and yellow for all shades of gray is a major challenge. If not getting a perfectly neutral black and white image is a deal breaker for you, Blurb may continue to disappoint.
2. HP allows for a "Delta 3" variation in any print. That means that there is an allowable tolerance of variation in lightness or darkness, warmth or coolness from the original to the print, or from one print to another. Bottom line, we can't guarantee an exact match. That doesn't mean that you should expect to get purple grass and green skies, but it does mean that the print production isn't stopped before every single one-book order to re-calibrate the printer.
3. With any variation, there's always a possibility for error. There will always be a chance that you'll receive a book that's been printed outside our expected tolerances. If you don't tell us, though, we won't know, and we can't give that feedback to our printers, or give you an opportunity to reprint.
I wouldn't call it a "total crap shoot" but I will admit that we have allow for some variation in our process. If you're ever in doubt, please check with us to determine whether a book was printed outside of tolerance. It appears that you have printed a handful of books with Blurb now, so you should have some idea of how frequently the printed product does or doesn't meet your expectations, or for how much the books match your originals on screen.
We definitely want you to be satisfied with your Blurb experiences, but we also don't want to set you (or us) up for failure. If, in your experience, Blurb can print a satisfactory product for your expectations, please just let us know when you receive something that fails to live up to that.
I see that you have already re-ordered the books you reported to Umayyah, so I hope this new set will turn out to your liking. "
So they made a "one time exception" and gave me a "credit" equal to the cost of the two books I'd had printed. I resaved each page as a PNG file and I adjusted the shadows and midtones, opening them up anywhere from 13 to 39 percent. I have now ordered the new books, and will let you know what they look like. The new version can be viewed on line, and looks quite a bit brighter than it should - but I expected that as I now that the print version will definitely look much darker than the on-line version.
<<< an edition of high quality prints. I can print on my own printer ... . There might even be a way to get a portfolio to hold them. >>>
FWIW, I think this is a really good idea. Custom made inkjet prints are hard to beat. They will blow the socks off of the photo book prints. I wish someone had invented an affordable desktop binder, as that would seal the deal. Kinko’s has GBC or Wire-O binding and it’s not too expensive. The downside is they look kind of like corporate office binding. The missing link is binding OR a portfolio that fits the prints and presents them well.
But most important of all, it gives you back control over the tones in the prints. And that is worth its weight in gold, in my opinion.
All of this is true - but let's be frank here: What are we going to do with an edition of, what, 100 prints, of photos by our friends? An inexpensive little book is one thing, a box of 100 custom prints is another.
All of this is true - but let's be frank here: What are we going to do with an edition of, what, 100 prints, of photos by our friends? An inexpensive little book is one thing, a box of 100 custom prints is another.
To be totally honest--I would like a book--yes it's a matter of bragging and showing off for me--plus I get to show everyone I know what I've been up to and introduce them to dgrin and the PJ community. I'm very proud to be part of it--so I would like the book, specially if it has some sort of intro and the names of the people who shot the photos.
B.D. reading what you said about blurb though, I imagine my high contrast black and white will break their printing machines:)
Yikes! My first Blurb book should arrive tomorrow or Friday. It includes exclusively black and white shots. I have told friends not to even think of buying it until I see a copy, but based on BD's experience, even if I like the copy I receive (which I am doubting will be the case) I think I may have to drop this project and just do color work with Blurb. :cry :cry
I sure do wish I had known about the PNG option for black and whites. The only thing I read was a request that the pictures be submitted in sRGB for better black and white results.
I was sooo excited, too. About my little project and about the PJ book.
Va
_______________________________________________ "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
While I certainly appreciate going for quality, I think we might be going off the deep end here a bit. I have prints of some of my shots from SmugMug. Are they museum quality? No. Neither are the shots themselves. Nevertheless, I put them up on the wall in the cheapest frames I could find and am quite pleased with them. So to me, the question is, would it be good enough? If it's close enough for rock 'n' roll, fine. If it sucks, well, probably not worth the money, not to mention Rutt's time and effort.
Oh yes, that would be much better. When I said “When you use PS to convert …”, I was only talking about the straight vanilla cmyk mode change. In custom, you will have a much better shot. Additionally, the Undercolor Removal or whatever they call it does seem to make sense here. It is basically an ink saving routine which lowers the 3c and raises K, which increases the chances of keeping things neutral. But I wouldn’t go too far with it, since you need that undercolor to give the blacks richness.
I have never used the custom routine in PS John, so I don’t know what their “heavy black” will give, but it sounds like a good starting point. As before, my suggestion is to try to make the cyan 8 to 10 points higher than M and Y in the blacks.
However, we're swinging the bat with our eyes closed here. The ideal situation would be simply to have a profile of the actual press. I suppose we’re doing our best without that, but why do I keep hearing that way madness lies?
Jim
I've always wanted to learn a foreign language
The use of a camera is similar to that of a knife. You can use it to peel potatoes, or carve a flute. ~ E. Kahlmeyer
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
<<< They acknowledge using a number of different printers, which means you never know which printer or press is doing your book, did the one before, or the one after;
They say you should purchase a "proof" book before deciding to order multiple copies >>>
There’s the rub. They suggest you buy a “proof book”, which may or may not represent what you’ll get on the next order, which makes a “proof book” well … kind of irrelevant.
Actually, that person from Blurb was forthcoming and pretty honest, at the least. Kudos for that. And they’re right that offering one book on demand for a reasonable price represents a leap forward which wasn’t available 5 years ago.
I hope no one thinks I'm down on Blurb or these presses. Not at all. I just thought it would be good to know exactly what it is you're buying.
Jim
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
<<< I've always wanted to learn a foreign language >>>
Learn Italian and you can pretend you belong in Florence. Learn French and play bohemian on the streets of Paris. Learn printing and everyone will say you're right at home in ... a pressroom. Not nearly as sexy.
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
Actually, that person from Blurb was forthcoming and pretty honest, at the least. Kudos for that.
Jim
Before you bury them too deeply in praise you should know that I had a back and forth with a lower level person, and in my last exchange with that person I pointed out that I teach at both Harvard and MIT, and am involved here at Dgrin, and that I have been recommending Blurb to my students, but given the results with this book...
And then, lo and behold, the latest email from someone further up the line.
<<< They acknowledge using a number of different printers, which means you never know which printer or press is doing your book, did the one before, or the one after;
They say you should purchase a "proof" book before deciding to order multiple copies >>>
There’s the rub.
They suggest you buy a “proof book”, which may or may not represent what you’ll get on the next order, which makes a “proof book” well … kind of irrelevant.
Exactly. This reminds me of the saying that some things are so cheap you can't afford them. Its an interesting spin on the whole "quality costs money" idea.
Received my first blurb book today (Paris in Black and White 2009) and am pleased with it. In fact, it is a kick to have it in hand.
My book is 40 pages with black and white photos on black background. I see no color cast in the photographs and good details in the blacks, where there is detail in the originals. I haven't analyzed the photographs in detail, but the overall impact is pleasing to me.
I ordered the 8"x10" landscape size with the heavier paper stock and a dust jacket. I was surprised to discover that the book itself has no printing on it at all (no title) , so you do have to keep the dust jacket with the book.
Now the question is whether this quality will be the exception or the rule for future printings.
Still, it makes me hopeful that perhaps we can pull off the PJ forum book project. My book may not be top of the line art book quality, but it is good enough for the modest purpose for which it was made. That seems to me a good goal for this group's collection.
Virginia
_______________________________________________ "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Received my first blurb book today (Paris in Black and White 2009) and am pleased with it. In fact, it is a kick to have it in hand.
My book is 40 pages with black and white photos on black background. I see no color cast in the photographs and good details in the blacks, where there is detail in the originals. I haven't analyzed the photographs in detail, but the overall impact is pleasing to me.
I ordered the 8"x10" landscape size with the heavier paper stock and a dust jacket. I was surprised to discover that the book itself has no printing on it at all (no title) , so you do have to keep the dust jacket with the book.
Now the question is whether this quality will be the exception or the rule for future printings.
Still, it makes me hopeful that perhaps we can pull off the PJ forum book project. My book may not be top of the line art book quality, but it is good enough for the modest purpose for which it was made. That seems to me a good goal for this group's collection.
Virginia
Will you post a link so we can admire your creation?
The use of a camera is similar to that of a knife. You can use it to peel potatoes, or carve a flute. ~ E. Kahlmeyer
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
I've been distracted, but Richard poked me about the state of this project.
Look, it's a little disheartening to see so little enthusiasm for the book. 8 people said they'd buy it. I got 10 emails with addresses in response to my request. OK, there are 3 others who know I know their addresses and me. But there are 60 entries in the gallery, 20 photographers, and only 13 cared enough to drop me a line.
I'm thinking I might scale this thing back a bit. Firstly, I'd only use the pictures of the people who have actually emailed me. That seems only right. Secondly, sadly, I might drop the color shots. This is not because I hate color, the reverse is true. It's because what I understand about Blurb makes it seem a lot more difficult to get consistent repeatable color than B&W. I haven't done the math yet, but I will today and see how many images this leaves. It takes me about 10 minutes per image to convert and process B&W from raw or SOTC jpegs. In some cases, no work is required, but this is an outside bound. So that gives you an idea.
Pulling the images together into a book is another issue. Using Blurb's software makes this pretty easy, I guess. But that means I can't use CMYK which I think will have a better chance of getting good reproducible results. To make CMYK, one needs to use Adobe InDesign or QuarkExpress. Does anyone have one of these and know how to use it? And there is even one more point. I'm good with Photoshop and prepress, but not particularly good at graphic design. Is anyone out there a graphic designer? Would you like to collaborate?
I've been distracted, but Richard poked me about the state of this project.
Look, it's a little disheartening to see so little enthusiasm for the book. 8 people said they'd buy it. I got 10 emails with addresses in response to my request. OK, there are 3 others who know I know their addresses and me. But there are 60 entries in the gallery, 20 photographers, and only 13 cared enough to drop me a line.
I'm thinking I might scale this thing back a bit. Firstly, I'd only use the pictures of the people who have actually emailed me. That seems only right. Secondly, sadly, I might drop the color shots. This is not because I hate color, the reverse is true. It's because what I understand about Blurb makes it seem a lot more difficult to get consistent repeatable color than B&W. I haven't done the math yet, but I will today and see how many images this leaves. It takes me about 10 minutes per image to convert and process B&W from raw or SOTC jpegs. In some cases, no work is required, but this is an outside bound. So that gives you an idea.
Pulling the images together into a book is another issue. Using Blurb's software makes this pretty easy, I guess. But that means I can't use CMYK which I think will have a better chance of getting good reproducible results. To make CMYK, one needs to use Adobe InDesign or QuarkExpress. Does anyone have one of these and know how to use it? And there is even one more point. I'm good with Photoshop and prepress, but not particularly good at graphic design. Is anyone out there a graphic designer? Would you like to collaborate?
I might also consider just using the jpeg
According to Blurb, PNG files produce better tonal consistency than JPG. Go figure.
Eliminating color will reduce the interest, I think, and leave out some wonderful shots. Maybe I'm missing something but I thought that Blurb was more dicey with B&W.
Well you know I want a copy of the book--but I would like everyone who participated to be included regardless of color vs b&w.
When they posted shots into the gallery, weren't they in essence saying "yes use my picture"?
Also you may have only gotten a few responses but I bet you more people would buy the book then those who are saying it. I have said I'd buy one--but I'd probably wind up with more for my Dad in Bolivia etc.
Eliminating color will reduce the interest, I think, and leave out some wonderful shots. Maybe I'm missing something but I thought that Blurb was more dicey with B&W.
No, I think the sad message is that it's dicey even in B&W. I owe everyone a little math. Let me see which ones I actually have email for. Right now, Richard, your bus is the only color I'm sure is still in if I eliminate the people who haven't emailed me. And because the color is reflected in on the bus, it will be a little more tolerant of casts from unpredictable inks. Also, it's one that I won't redo from scratch for sure!
I'd still love a graphic artist collaborator for this project.
Right now, Richard, your bus is the only color I'm sure is still in if I eliminate the people who haven't emailed me. And because the color is reflected in on the bus, it will be a little more tolerant of casts from unpredictable inks. Also, it's one that I won't redo from scratch for sure!
If you leave out the left half, I'm really going to be pissed.
Seriously, though, I would miss a number of other shots. There's only one I can think of where skin-tone is important, so I don't think that minor color shifts are important. It certainly isn't important in that shot of mine.
OK, I did the arithmetic. Of the people who have sent me email (or who are exempt), there are 39 submissions. And 21 from people who didn't send email (a couple of surprising omissions and at least a few images I liked a lot.)
I also divided the images into three categories:
B&W
Insensitive color -- no realistic skin tones, skies, water. No neutrals which must reproduce neutral
Sensitive color -- color that has to be right to look good
The breakdown is 26/9/4 among the ones where I have emails and 16/2/3 in the ones that haven't contacted me.
B&W is easiest. There is just on challenge: how to use the ink to get good blacks. Insensitive color is easiest. If the photographer decided to leave a cast, introduced a cast, partly desaturated, whatever, it won't matter if the inks aren't perfect. It's like rock & roll music playing on a car stereo. It doesn't have to look real to look good. The last category is the hardest. Color balance on skin can be pretty sensitive to a slight change in color if the inks aren't just so...
Comments
Maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but I was a beta reader for Dan Margulis' PP5E and he goes into quite some depth about compensating for expected press variances. Perhaps Blurb is way off the scale? I don't trust my eyes very much in preparing prints and so far it's worked well for me with good inkjets. I was thinking the same idea might work with Blurb. I suppose the real danger of my approach with them danger is over inking.
Custom CMYK: if you convert to custom CMYK, PS shows you an inking curve. Pretty entertaining.
Cheap. If at least all the photographers would sign up to buy one, we might consider a different press. And think of the glory if I can figure out a good prepress technique for such a sloppy press.
Actually, there is one more point. Most of the images for this book are B&W and of the color shots, most of them are not really what I'd call accurate. I think the B&W challenge might be surmountable with clever use of the color inks and a little betting on the safe (cool) side. Most of the color shots will look OK even with slight press variances. There are two or three where we might be sorry.
It’s not that Blurb is off the scale, it’s any printer with these presses. They can print excellent quality, but only by controlling the numbers game, just as you read from Margulies. But we just don’t have the numbers. And they can’t give us the numbers since they don’t know where your books will print. Which plant? Which press?
As far as I know, all you can do is what you're already doing.
It’s a difficult situation. To the best of my knowledge, the control you want just isn’t available without a profile. And when you start guessing at dot gain amounts for each color, that way madness lies.
Any chance Blurb has someone here?
Jim
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
http://www.jimwhitakerphotography.com/
With that few takers, maybe there is a better alternative to Blurb: an edition of high quality prints. I can print on my own printer and/or we can make available from smugmug somehow. There might even be a way to get a portfolio to hold them.
Opinions?
Others in the community may want copies besides to entrants. IMHO
Don
'I was older then, I'm younger than that now' ....
My Blog | Q+ | Moderator, Lightroom Forums | My Amateur Smugmug Stuff | My Blurb book Rust and Whimsy. More Rust , FaceBook .
B. D. just got his copies of his book - a hard cover and a paper back - and is deeply, seriously, disappointed. While the cover image on both copies is quite good, if a bit on the blue side, the images inside the book look as though they were drowned in ink. Every image is waaaaay too dark - talk about blocked shadows. Comparing the printed version to the on-screen version - or, for that matter, the cover image with the same image inside the book - is really shocking. I'm in the midst of a back and forth with Blurb now, and obviously want the book reprinted. What worries me is that I would guess that every copy is a crap shoot.
I am somewhat surprised as I've had Blurb do wedding books and they've worked out quite well. The color images have been reasonably close to what they should be,and while the black and whites all had a tint, they were good in terms of the tonality. But this? Awful!
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
FWIW, I think this is a really good idea. Custom made inkjet prints are hard to beat. They will blow the socks off of the photo book prints. I wish someone had invented an affordable desktop binder, as that would seal the deal. Kinko’s has GBC or Wire-O binding and it’s not too expensive. The downside is they look kind of like corporate office binding. The missing link is binding OR a portfolio that fits the prints and presents them well.
But most important of all, it gives you back control over the tones in the prints. And that is worth its weight in gold, in my opinion.
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
http://www.jimwhitakerphotography.com/
I have now had a number of back and forth's with Blurb, corresponding with people at two different levels, and this appears to be the bottom line:
It's a crap shoot.
They acknowledge using a number of different printers, which means you never know which printer or press is doing your book, did the one before, or the one after;
They acknowledge that they have real difficulty printing images with deep shadows;
They say that the best way to avoid color shift is to submit the images as PNG files(!);
They say you should purchase a "proof" book before deciding to order multiple copies - which is to say buy a book at full price to see if it's any good. If it isn't, good luck;
They point out that what you see on the screen will NOT match what you see in print;
They say that the cover print and the print inside of the same image will NOT match up because the two use different paper and different presses.
Actually, I'll let them say it...
"Umayyah's asked me to take a look at your incident to see if I can offer some additional feedback for you.
You asked "where do you tell people that printing books with you is a total crap shoot?" and I think that's something I can try to clarify a bit. We use the HP Indigo 5500 for most of our print work. This is a digital printer, not the traditional offset printer you might use if you were able to print runs of several thousand copies. Admittedly, traditional offset will be superior print quality.
What Blurb can offer, is a print quality that is close to, but won't match traditional offset, and we can do it in a matter of days, instead of weeks. Because we can run a very large volume of orders with short turnaround, we're able to offer prices to print one or two completely customized bound "real" books that would have been unheard of just 5 years ago. Print on demand technology has improved dramatically in a short time and become significantly more accessible, making it a great option for the most basic consumer to advanced and pro users.
That said, there are significant limitations.
1. We use four color printing, not black and white printing. Getting a perfectly calibrated balance of cyan, magenta and yellow for all shades of gray is a major challenge. If not getting a perfectly neutral black and white image is a deal breaker for you, Blurb may continue to disappoint.
2. HP allows for a "Delta 3" variation in any print. That means that there is an allowable tolerance of variation in lightness or darkness, warmth or coolness from the original to the print, or from one print to another. Bottom line, we can't guarantee an exact match. That doesn't mean that you should expect to get purple grass and green skies, but it does mean that the print production isn't stopped before every single one-book order to re-calibrate the printer.
3. With any variation, there's always a possibility for error. There will always be a chance that you'll receive a book that's been printed outside our expected tolerances. If you don't tell us, though, we won't know, and we can't give that feedback to our printers, or give you an opportunity to reprint.
I wouldn't call it a "total crap shoot" but I will admit that we have allow for some variation in our process. If you're ever in doubt, please check with us to determine whether a book was printed outside of tolerance. It appears that you have printed a handful of books with Blurb now, so you should have some idea of how frequently the printed product does or doesn't meet your expectations, or for how much the books match your originals on screen.
We definitely want you to be satisfied with your Blurb experiences, but we also don't want to set you (or us) up for failure. If, in your experience, Blurb can print a satisfactory product for your expectations, please just let us know when you receive something that fails to live up to that.
I see that you have already re-ordered the books you reported to Umayyah, so I hope this new set will turn out to your liking. "
So they made a "one time exception" and gave me a "credit" equal to the cost of the two books I'd had printed. I resaved each page as a PNG file and I adjusted the shadows and midtones, opening them up anywhere from 13 to 39 percent. I have now ordered the new books, and will let you know what they look like. The new version can be viewed on line, and looks quite a bit brighter than it should - but I expected that as I now that the print version will definitely look much darker than the on-line version.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
All of this is true - but let's be frank here: What are we going to do with an edition of, what, 100 prints, of photos by our friends? An inexpensive little book is one thing, a box of 100 custom prints is another.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
To be totally honest--I would like a book--yes it's a matter of bragging and showing off for me--plus I get to show everyone I know what I've been up to and introduce them to dgrin and the PJ community. I'm very proud to be part of it--so I would like the book, specially if it has some sort of intro and the names of the people who shot the photos.
B.D. reading what you said about blurb though, I imagine my high contrast black and white will break their printing machines:)
_________
I sure do wish I had known about the PNG option for black and whites. The only thing I read was a request that the pictures be submitted in sRGB for better black and white results.
I was sooo excited, too. About my little project and about the PJ book.
Va
"A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Email
I've always wanted to learn a foreign language
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
patti hinton photography
They say you should purchase a "proof" book before deciding to order multiple copies >>>
There’s the rub.
They suggest you buy a “proof book”, which may or may not represent what you’ll get on the next order, which makes a “proof book” well … kind of irrelevant.
Actually, that person from Blurb was forthcoming and pretty honest, at the least. Kudos for that. And they’re right that offering one book on demand for a reasonable price represents a leap forward which wasn’t available 5 years ago.
I hope no one thinks I'm down on Blurb or these presses. Not at all. I just thought it would be good to know exactly what it is you're buying.
Jim
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
http://www.jimwhitakerphotography.com/
Learn Italian and you can pretend you belong in Florence. Learn French and play bohemian on the streets of Paris. Learn printing and everyone will say you're right at home in ... a pressroom. Not nearly as sexy.
I don't want the cheese, I just want to get out of the trap.
http://www.jimwhitakerphotography.com/
Before you bury them too deeply in praise you should know that I had a back and forth with a lower level person, and in my last exchange with that person I pointed out that I teach at both Harvard and MIT, and am involved here at Dgrin, and that I have been recommending Blurb to my students, but given the results with this book...
And then, lo and behold, the latest email from someone further up the line.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
patti hinton photography
My book is 40 pages with black and white photos on black background. I see no color cast in the photographs and good details in the blacks, where there is detail in the originals. I haven't analyzed the photographs in detail, but the overall impact is pleasing to me.
I ordered the 8"x10" landscape size with the heavier paper stock and a dust jacket. I was surprised to discover that the book itself has no printing on it at all (no title) , so you do have to keep the dust jacket with the book.
Now the question is whether this quality will be the exception or the rule for future printings.
Still, it makes me hopeful that perhaps we can pull off the PJ forum book project. My book may not be top of the line art book quality, but it is good enough for the modest purpose for which it was made. That seems to me a good goal for this group's collection.
Virginia
"A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Email
Will you post a link so we can admire your creation?
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
patti hinton photography
Look, it's a little disheartening to see so little enthusiasm for the book. 8 people said they'd buy it. I got 10 emails with addresses in response to my request. OK, there are 3 others who know I know their addresses and me. But there are 60 entries in the gallery, 20 photographers, and only 13 cared enough to drop me a line.
I'm thinking I might scale this thing back a bit. Firstly, I'd only use the pictures of the people who have actually emailed me. That seems only right. Secondly, sadly, I might drop the color shots. This is not because I hate color, the reverse is true. It's because what I understand about Blurb makes it seem a lot more difficult to get consistent repeatable color than B&W. I haven't done the math yet, but I will today and see how many images this leaves. It takes me about 10 minutes per image to convert and process B&W from raw or SOTC jpegs. In some cases, no work is required, but this is an outside bound. So that gives you an idea.
Pulling the images together into a book is another issue. Using Blurb's software makes this pretty easy, I guess. But that means I can't use CMYK which I think will have a better chance of getting good reproducible results. To make CMYK, one needs to use Adobe InDesign or QuarkExpress. Does anyone have one of these and know how to use it? And there is even one more point. I'm good with Photoshop and prepress, but not particularly good at graphic design. Is anyone out there a graphic designer? Would you like to collaborate?
I might also consider just using the jpeg
According to Blurb, PNG files produce better tonal consistency than JPG. Go figure.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Eliminating color will reduce the interest, I think, and leave out some wonderful shots. Maybe I'm missing something but I thought that Blurb was more dicey with B&W.
Not determined.
When they posted shots into the gallery, weren't they in essence saying "yes use my picture"?
Also you may have only gotten a few responses but I bet you more people would buy the book then those who are saying it. I have said I'd buy one--but I'd probably wind up with more for my Dad in Bolivia etc.
_________
No, I think the sad message is that it's dicey even in B&W. I owe everyone a little math. Let me see which ones I actually have email for. Right now, Richard, your bus is the only color I'm sure is still in if I eliminate the people who haven't emailed me. And because the color is reflected in on the bus, it will be a little more tolerant of casts from unpredictable inks. Also, it's one that I won't redo from scratch for sure!
I'd still love a graphic artist collaborator for this project.
If you leave out the left half, I'm really going to be pissed.
Seriously, though, I would miss a number of other shots. There's only one I can think of where skin-tone is important, so I don't think that minor color shifts are important. It certainly isn't important in that shot of mine.
I also divided the images into three categories:
The breakdown is 26/9/4 among the ones where I have emails and 16/2/3 in the ones that haven't contacted me.
B&W is easiest. There is just on challenge: how to use the ink to get good blacks. Insensitive color is easiest. If the photographer decided to leave a cast, introduced a cast, partly desaturated, whatever, it won't matter if the inks aren't perfect. It's like rock & roll music playing on a car stereo. It doesn't have to look real to look good. The last category is the hardest. Color balance on skin can be pretty sensitive to a slight change in color if the inks aren't just so...
4 sensitive color shots. Not so bad, really.