Mouse For Photo Editing

CyberSteak

Any recommendations on a mouse for photo editing? Something pin point accurate and smooth to use. I got a Microsoft Blue Track mouse with the laptop I picked up. Not sure how well it will work and figured I'd pose this question before opening it up. Let me know and thanks in advance.

Sam

Mouse....NO!

Pen Tablet.........Yes! Yes! Yes!

Sam

CyberSteak

Sam wrote:

Mouse....NO!

Pen Tablet.........Yes! Yes! Yes!

Sam

Hmmm...never thought of that. Any particular one?

Sam

Wacom

Sam

cmason

I have my eye on this: http://www.wacom.com/bamboo/bamboo_pen_touch.php

CyberSteak

cmason wrote:

I have my eye on this: http://www.wacom.com/bamboo/bamboo_pen_touch.php

That one seems fairly reasonably priced. I seen a few last night from Wacom that were in the $200+ range. I'd be a total noob to the technology of tablets. How much do you have to spend on one that is both good for now, and the fair bit into the future?

Ric Grupe

CyberSteak wrote:

That one seems fairly reasonably priced. I seen a few last night from Wacom that were in the $200+ range. I'd be a total noob to the technology of tablets. How much do you have to spend on one that is both good for now, and the fair bit into the future?

JFYI...I had a tablet and prefer a mouse for photo editing.

The logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo WavePro works great for me. The mouse is easily the best I've ever used. The battery lasts very well between charges.

DeVerm

Okay, I'll give it another try in this thread... ;-)

If you want a mouse with precision and excellent build quality, you must buy a "gaming" mouse. I have a Logitec G5 but there are all new types now. The type always starts with that "G".

Now, if you use a pen tablet because you found that a mouse doesn't do the job but never tried a gaming grade mouse... same thing, you must buy one and find that for at least 50% of the work you did with the pen tablet, you will switch to using that mouse because of improved workflow efficiency / comfort.

The reasons these mice are so good is that they have small buttons under your fingers for adjusting the mouse DPI resolution. This is easiest explained with this example: let's say you want to move your mouse cursor one pixel to the left. You move your mouse a little to the left and the cursor moves 6 pixels instead of just one. Now you remember the DPI setting and adjust it to precision. You move the mouse a little to the left and the cursor doesn't move at all because you need to move the mouse further to get the cursor moving: it's precision is like that of a tablet. After the precision work you switch back in the blink of an eye so you can move around fast again to reach menu's buttons etc.

Also: all the components of these mice are top notch and so is the build quality. The laser is not comparable to consumer class mice and for example my G5 has a magazine with little weights that can be ejected from the mouse to adjust the weight (mix&match weights and insert the magazine again) and the cord has a braided polyester cover like a high tech rope.

The catch is that they cost a multiple compared to consumer mice but you just found out that that junk isn't going to do the job anyway and it sure is cheap compared to a good lens ;-)

Other gaming components worth of consideration: keyboards and wifi routers. Same story: better quality, usefull options, more expensive. Look at it as the "L" class of Canon lenses for your computer.

ciao!
Nick.

Jane B.

Ric Grupe wrote:

JFYI...I had a tablet and prefer a mouse for photo editing.

The logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo WavePro works great for me. The mouse is easily the best I've ever used. The battery lasts very well between charges.

+1 but never had a tablet. Don't like a real pen so do everything I can on computer with a keyboard.

Although I am no where near the expert that Ric is and the mouse that I use is so old that it has to be connected through an adapter! So, no help there as to what to get now.
Jane B.

Ric Grupe

Jane B. wrote:

+1 but never had a tablet. Don't like a real pen so do everything I can on computer with a keyboard.

Although I am no where near the expert that Ric is and the mouse that I use is so old that it has to be connected through an adapter! So, no help there as to what to get now.
Jane B.

It's a personal thing....no right or wrong to it. What fits you is what you should use...and the only way you're ever going to know that is to try the different options out.

I have large hands with long fingers...so what I use is suited for me after trying many other options out. I could not control the pen as well as a mouse and cared not for the extra room a tablet took up in my work space.

colourbox

The thread so far hasn't touched on the two biggest differences between mice and tablets: how they position, and their sensitivity to pressure and other inputs.

Mice are relative positioning; if you pick up a mouse off the desk and put it back down on a different part of the desk without rolling it, the cursor doesn't move. Tablets use absolute positioning; if you pick up a stylus off a tablet and put it down on the lower right corner of the tablet, the cursor jumps to the lower right corner of the screen. This is neither good nor bad and can give you more or less control depending. In a sense it is more precise because stylus motion is not subject to nonlinear mouse acceleration. Where you put the stylus is exactly where it goes, right down to the pixel. But some tiny movements are easier with a mouse or trackball.

The much larger difference is, when you paint with a mouse, it's on or off. That's it. A stylus is pressure-sensitive, so you can set up your software so that pressing harder makes a darker line, a wider line, or both. The majority of the options in Photoshop's Brushes panel are there to support stylus control features. A technical photographer who never retouches may not care, but a painterly photographer or someone who creates masks all day would really want a stylus.

Now cheap vs expensive tablets. Today's sub-$100 Wacoms are at least as good as the pro models of yesteryear. So what do you get for $300+? More resolution and more levels of pressure sensitivity, if you're the type that would notice. The tablets themselves are more programmable and versatile, with buttons and touch strips you can assign to shortcuts. But they also have more features like sensing stylus tilt angle and barrel rotation. If you only use buttons and sliders in your software, tilt and rotation mean nothing. But if you are a digital painter who wants the stylus to work like a real world flat brush that changes how it lays down paint as you turn and angle it, then this is critical because it's simply not possible with a mouse. Also, the expensive ones can take alternative pointing devices like crosshair pucks for architects.

One nice thing about tablets is they just don't break. I can't kill the ones I have. I have an old one that I throw in my backpack with my laptop and even though it gets abused in there it still won't die.

If you're just pushing sliders around in a raw editor, a mouse is fine and no stylus is needed. If you want control over retouching or painting, a stylus is mandatory. Or you can turn into someone like me who hardly uses mice at all anymore because the stylus feels better and causes less hand strain (to me; that's not an absolute and varies by person).

Sam

Good explanation colourbox.

Less wordy mouse.....NO

Pen Tablet...............Yes, Yes, Yes

( A pen tablet is one of my must haves, even above ice cream)

Sam

CyberSteak

colourbox wrote:

The thread so far hasn't touched on the two biggest differences between mice and tablets: how they position, and their sensitivity to pressure and other inputs.

Mice are relative positioning; if you pick up a mouse off the desk and put it back down on a different part of the desk without rolling it, the cursor doesn't move. Tablets use absolute positioning; if you pick up a stylus off a tablet and put it down on the lower right corner of the tablet, the cursor jumps to the lower right corner of the screen. This is neither good nor bad and can give you more or less control depending. In a sense it is more precise because stylus motion is not subject to nonlinear mouse acceleration. Where you put the stylus is exactly where it goes, right down to the pixel. But some tiny movements are easier with a mouse or trackball.

The much larger difference is, when you paint with a mouse, it's on or off. That's it. A stylus is pressure-sensitive, so you can set up your software so that pressing harder makes a darker line, a wider line, or both. The majority of the options in Photoshop's Brushes panel are there to support stylus control features. A technical photographer who never retouches may not care, but a painterly photographer or someone who creates masks all day would really want a stylus.

Now cheap vs expensive tablets. Today's sub-$100 Wacoms are at least as good as the pro models of yesteryear. So what do you get for $300+? More resolution and more levels of pressure sensitivity, if you're the type that would notice. The tablets themselves are more programmable and versatile, with buttons and touch strips you can assign to shortcuts. But they also have more features like sensing stylus tilt angle and barrel rotation. If you only use buttons and sliders in your software, tilt and rotation mean nothing. But if you are a digital painter who wants the stylus to work like a real world flat brush that changes how it lays down paint as you turn and angle it, then this is critical because it's simply not possible with a mouse. Also, the expensive ones can take alternative pointing devices like crosshair pucks for architects.

One nice thing about tablets is they just don't break. I can't kill the ones I have. I have an old one that I throw in my backpack with my laptop and even though it gets abused in there it still won't die.

If you're just pushing sliders around in a raw editor, a mouse is fine and no stylus is needed. If you want control over retouching or painting, a stylus is mandatory. Or you can turn into someone like me who hardly uses mice at all anymore because the stylus feels better and causes less hand strain (to me; that's not an absolute and varies by person).

Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful indeed. I'm looking at the intuos4 (?) I believe. If I can get it at a good price...I'll definately give this a try.

CyberSteak

DeVerm wrote:

Okay, I'll give it another try in this thread... ;-)

If you want a mouse with precision and excellent build quality, you must buy a "gaming" mouse. I have a Logitec G5 but there are all new types now. The type always starts with that "G".

Now, if you use a pen tablet because you found that a mouse doesn't do the job but never tried a gaming grade mouse... same thing, you must buy one and find that for at least 50% of the work you did with the pen tablet, you will switch to using that mouse because of improved workflow efficiency / comfort.

The reasons these mice are so good is that they have small buttons under your fingers for adjusting the mouse DPI resolution. This is easiest explained with this example: let's say you want to move your mouse cursor one pixel to the left. You move your mouse a little to the left and the cursor moves 6 pixels instead of just one. Now you remember the DPI setting and adjust it to precision. You move the mouse a little to the left and the cursor doesn't move at all because you need to move the mouse further to get the cursor moving: it's precision is like that of a tablet. After the precision work you switch back in the blink of an eye so you can move around fast again to reach menu's buttons etc.

Also: all the components of these mice are top notch and so is the build quality. The laser is not comparable to consumer class mice and for example my G5 has a magazine with little weights that can be ejected from the mouse to adjust the weight (mix&match weights and insert the magazine again) and the cord has a braided polyester cover like a high tech rope.

The catch is that they cost a multiple compared to consumer mice but you just found out that that junk isn't going to do the job anyway and it sure is cheap compared to a good lens ;-)

Other gaming components worth of consideration: keyboards and wifi routers. Same story: better quality, usefull options, more expensive. Look at it as the "L" class of Canon lenses for your computer.

ciao!
Nick.

Thanks for this also. I caught some talk in another thread regarding gaming mouses. Those are often easy to come by on sale so I'll keep a heads up for a good deal there.

BradfordBenn

I also agree with both the tablet solution for the pressure sensitive tools; however I still keep a mouse handy for some things, like text editing. I will say that the sizing of the tablet is the challenge. I found that I needed a smaller one than I thought. I bought an Aiptek large (about 10" x 10" IIRC) and it tired me out - I ended up taking it to work to use. The Bamboo Medium was the right solution for me and very affordable.

The more time you can try it before you buy it, the better.

CyberSteak

Well I went with the majority, and picked up a Wacom Intuos4 Small tablet last night. It was lightly used but it's only costing me $200 delivered from the States to Canada. Buyer agreed to mark it as a gift and claim the value less then what I paid. That'll save me on taxes and Duty. Had I bought new from anywhere else it would have cost me another $70 or so, so I think I made out quite well.

Thanks for everyone's help. I'm expecting to really like editing this way, but will update everyone once I get a chance to play with it.

Dan7312

I have a wacom Intuos 8x10 tablet. I haven't used it for photo editing but did use it for a quite a while for making technical illustrations with Illustrator and making PowerPoint slides with lots of diagrams. It was a bit better than a mouse, but except for tracing things I didn't find it to be all that much better than a mouse. However this

http://www.wacom.com/cintiq/cintiq-21ux.php

looks like the real deal to me, but I've never been able to justify the cost.

The problem I found with the tablet was the same issue I have with the mouse, you are not working on the image itself, the action at a distance, human pantograph thing, at least for me, is about the same for a tablet as for a mouse. Maybe my eye/hand coordination isn't good enough to pull it off .

A lot of Wacom's come with both a pen and a mouse. The mouse is great, but I think that defeats the spirit of having tablet.

I know some people really like tablets and are productive with them, but I also know people with tablets in the closets. If you can find a way to try one for while before you commit bucks to it, do it.

CyberSteak wrote:

Hmmm...never thought of that. Any particular one?

Art Scott

CyberSteak wrote:

That one seems fairly reasonably priced. I seen a few last night from Wacom that were in the $200+ range. I'd be a total noob to the technology of tablets. How much do you have to spend on one that is both good for now, and the fair bit into the future?

I spent less than $50 on a used Wacom.......ebay usually has ton of graphics tablets for sale.....this link takes you to one almost like I use..but mine nver had an overlay to protect the tablet, but then I have never need it......i also agree that a tablet is the way to go.....if you decide not to go tablet....then Logitech Wireless trackball ........this is the one I just ordered, I have used the wired version for over 4 yrs now, the wireless is for my laptop.......I will never ever use a mouse again after I used a trackball.

CyberSteak

Art and Dan thanks for your contributions. Much appreciated. You'll notice in my last post I ended up picking up a Wacom Intuos4 tablet so I think the search is over. Atleast until I get the tablet in and get to see if I like it or not. Will definately consider gaming mice and trackballs though if the tablet doesn't work out so well.

photorelive

before i used to use any mouse in photo editing , but when i used microsoft its really different the white normal one :

it makes me finish same photos in less time

1. very smooth
2. very sensetive to any move
3.the right click ( does a click sound )
4. the left click ( doesnt make any voice or click sound )

very smart mouse :ivar

mr peas

Until it broke on me (I think its driver issues), I used to use a Razor Diamondback, which is essentially a gaming mouse. One cool feature on it is the ability to change resolution or mouse tracking speed on the fly via buttons on it's right side. This was useful for gaming but more useful for photo editing in that if I needed the mouse to go slower to move it far by hand and it moves slow on the monitor, it just takes 2 clicks down and 2 clicks up returning to normal.

I also suggest using a larger mouse-pad, you can have a super nice mouse but not have the pad to match it.

Now I use a cheaper Logitech wireless mouse. Its not adjustable, but its cheap, tracks fine and its very durable.

You don't need the most expensive mouse to go at it, just get something you're comfortable using and paying for.

dennismullen

Trackball
I have always used a Logiteck Trackman Wheel. It's a thumb controlled marble so you only move your thumb not your whole arm when using it.

Set the acceleration in the driver settings to max so you can zip across a page when moving fast but slow down for precise control.

Cheers,

Rhuarc

I have the Wacom Bamboo tablet, but I am finding that because I use Lightroom for much of my editing the pressure sensitive nature of the tablet does nothing for me. It is still nice to be able to naturally follow curvers and such using natural movements of my hand, but unless LR3 comes out with pressure sensitive support for the brush mode then it really doesn't add much over a mouse.

Photoshop on the other hand...instant win!!!

Nikonic1

I used the Wacom Intuos4 Medium product at a recent Kelby conference and it was AWESOME! Pinpoint accurate, smooth, intuitive and fun to use. I would love to have one but at $369 I don't see that happening.

http://www.wacom.com/intuos/medium.php

TonyCooper

I use a mouse, a trackball, and a Wacom tablet. All three are always connected. In an editing session all three might be used for various functions.

I'm left-handed, and the trackball sits at my right and the mouse and tablet at my left. I'll switch back-and-forth between the trackball and the mouse just to give my shoulders a break. I use the tablet for precision work.

The mouse, by the way, is a $5.00 corded mouse. I'm more precise with the trackball than the mouse, but most precise with the tablet.

pinkymaling

wacom

cmason wrote:

I have my eye on this: http://www.wacom.com/bamboo/bamboo_pen_touch.php

Thats a great tablet. We have several styles ourselves. If you are interested....we are selling one that works directly on screen. It is the Cintiq 12wx with interactive pen display. It has only been used about 5 times and is new:) (love these smiley characters)

Art Scott

CyberSteak wrote:

Art and Dan thanks for your contributions. Much appreciated. You'll notice in my last post I ended up picking up a Wacom Intuos4 tablet so I think the search is over.

Well it has been a few months since you said you purchased the Wacom I4..........

Tell us how you like / dislike it.........when / if I upgrade to win 7 and CS4/5 I will have to upgrade my tablet..........

As for trackballs........I am hooked on the Logictech Trackman's.........I have a corded and wireless versions and really like them both....................

mutti_wilson

Ditto on the adjustable on the fly DPI. I use a Logitech G5 and constantly adjust between the low and medium settings. I'm not a painter so I don't think I'd benefit from a tablet. I'm a gamer as well so accuracy with the mouse is something that is not a problem at all. Tracking a moving target through my scope is harder that touching up a edge etc.

Jamez007Bond

Art Scott... Just reading up on this thread and I agree with you on your choice of trackball. I have had one of the cordless ones for several years and it works great. I did experiment with using the Microsoft brand one though and thought you may want to give it a try if you find one at a good price sometime.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=microsoft+trackball+optical&hl=en&prmd=ivs&resnum=1&biw=1280&bih=823&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4250123426356532448&ei=G5jiTLy9CoP_8Abxn9WzDw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CF8Q8wIwAA#

The price of this one is about DOUBLE what I paid for my new trackball about 8 years ago. The thing I like about the MS trackball is it's larger size. I can open my hand up more using it. I spend a lot of time on the computer doing precise work with web design and photo editing, and the larger MS Trackball is the only device I've found so far that doesn't bother my wrist for long hours of work.

The bad: I've had two of the MS Trackballs and even though the look identical, they are not. On one of them the ball turns & glides very smooth and on the other one it has more of a abrasive feel to the ball and I don't like using it causing it to not handle as precise. The Logitech trackball you have is wonderful for the smoothness of the ball, I really like that too.

The MS trackball has two extra slim programmable buttons that are right next to the right and left click buttons. These are so handy for browsing web pages or viewing photos in your generic photo viewer on the computer because you can program them to be your back and forward movement buttons.

I have also used an Intuos 3 tablet for several years now. I use it mainly in Photoshop in doing photo retouching. It's wonderful having precise control of pen pressure to vary the brush-strokes when masking and painting of various sorts.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=intuos3+tablet&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=3696068202574696770&ei=XZniTI7lHIT58AaRxJjkDw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEoQ8wIwAA#

I have briefly looked at the Bamboo stuff from Intuos but I don't know enough about it to know if it is worth the money to change from my current tablet. I could make use of more levels of sensitivity in a tablet.

It's been a few months since you posted on this thread, what has been your experience since your last post? Are you liking your new upgrades?

Micah

Art Scott wrote: »

Well it has been a few months since you said you purchased the Wacom I4..........

Tell us how you like / dislike it.........when / if I upgrade to win 7 and CS4/5 I will have to upgrade my tablet..........

As for trackballs........I am hooked on the Logictech Trackman's.........I have a corded and wireless versions and really like them both....................

Art Scott

Jamez007Bond.......I have not upgraded anything but to a Laptop with Win 7...still loving my trackman(s).....
the wireless is great on my desktop and the wired is great on my laptop when I travel......I will be getting a new
tablet in the near future but for now my old wacom is living well with the desktop (looking at a wacom Intuos 4
or would drop back to an used 3 but cannot find definitve answer to if it will work with Win 7).......but 99.9% of my
processing is done on desktop any way.........my hands are not really large and the trackman(s) fit my palm
perfectly but thanks for the link to the MS one tho.....i originally had an MS trackball but when the trackman
with the thumb ball came out.....i switched but I keep looking and trying them out at the stores......
Kensington has huge trackballs but si do not like the ball placement....but they do take a bit of time to get
used to.

RobSylvan

TonyCooper wrote: »

I use a mouse, a trackball, and a Wacom tablet. All three are always connected. In an editing session all three might be used for various functions.

I'm left-handed, and the trackball sits at my right and the mouse and tablet at my left. I'll switch back-and-forth between the trackball and the mouse just to give my shoulders a break. I use the tablet for precision work.

The mouse, by the way, is a $5.00 corded mouse. I'm more precise with the trackball than the mouse, but most precise with the tablet.

As another lefty (mostly) I do kind of the same thing, except I don't use a trackball. Pen tablet on the left side, mouse on the right, keyboard in the middle. Tablet when I'm doing anything with a brush of any sort, keyboard and mouse the rest of the time.