Noob Shoots Wrestling

Macushla

OK so I just got my first SLR camera last week. I don't know much about photography but I'm reading everything I can and trying to get the hang of it.

I shot middle school wrestling today. I used the aperture priority mode and had the camera set to F3. (camera and lens in sig) I do not have an external flash. The camera was on a tripod and I'm sitting in the first row of the stands. I really can't get much closer because the lens is 70-210. Even at 70 I can't get the boys if they are really close to where I'm sitting. I was afraid to set is to manual because I really don't know what I'm doing.

The last meet I used shutter priority 1250 and all the photos came yellow and grainy. These are closer to a natural color and some are almost in focus.

Here are the best shots:






I took about 150 shots here are some of the less blurry ones.
http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/Wrestling#

I would love some feedback and suggestions. Next meet is on Sunday.

DeeCajun

Great subject there.. don't be afraid to use Manual.. If I can do it ( I have dyslexia! ) anyone can...

Practice as much as you can on different settings then take note on the ones you like..

I would use fast shutter speed and larger aperture for lighting... but I am no expert..

Kudos for not using auto!

Macushla

Thanks Dee - I think I'm going to give it a shot!



I'm seriously looking for feedback. I can handle the truth.

johng

Given the camera body you're using and lack of flash I think you did very well. You're nice and tight and you learned how important faces are. So you did well.

The biggest issues are about what you'd expect right now: noise, shadows, motion blur.

If you haven't run these through noise reduction then I suggest looking into NOiseware (my choice), noise ninja or neatimage noise reduction software. I looked in your gallery and for whatever reason the ISO value is N/A for all the photos so I couldn't see what setting was used. Shots 2 & 3 really illustrate the shutter speed issue - stationary subject is pretty sharp (thanks to tripod) but the other wrestler has blur - especially in #2.

Depending on what ISO value you used and whether or not you already used noise reduction you may be able to bump up ISO to get faster shutter speeds. If not, then it's a matter of accepting these issues until you can afford an external flash.

But, good job so far!

ole doc

you got the most important thing right, you get good views of the face of the kid on top. No sales for the kid on the bottom.
I think your pictures are sharp enough. You should get a hot shoe flash ASAP. They give plenty of coverage for the average high school wrestling venue. Then I would crank the shutter speed up to an acceptable motion stopping value, say 1/200 sec and kick up the ISO until your f stop is in range for your lens. As my pictures before which you commented on show I use shutter priority but need to try full manual the next time as has been suggested here. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of in this group of pictures.
Nick

Macushla

johng wrote:

The biggest issues are about what you'd expect right now: noise, shadows, motion blur.

If you haven't run these through noise reduction then I suggest looking into NOiseware (my choice), noise ninja or neatimage noise reduction software. I looked in your gallery and for whatever reason the ISO value is N/A for all the photos so I couldn't see what setting was used. Shots 2 & 3 really illustrate the shutter speed issue - stationary subject is pretty sharp (thanks to tripod) but the other wrestler has blur - especially in #2.

Depending on what ISO value you used and whether or not you already used noise reduction you may be able to bump up ISO to get faster shutter speeds. If not, then it's a matter of accepting these issues until you can afford an external flash.

But, good job so far!

I think the ISO was set to 1000. Does that make sense? If I switch to manual for next time and set the Aperture to 3 should I try to set the ISO to 1250 or 1600. Will that help? Am I making any sense???

I don't have any noise reduction software - I've never even heard of it before. I did enhance these a little bit using the standard editing software that came with my mac (iPhoto). I also have photoshop elements for Mac. If I get noiseware is at a stand alone program or some type of plug in for photoshop? Is it hard to use?

Macushla

ole doc wrote:

you got the most important thing right, you get good views of the face of the kid on top. No sales for the kid on the bottom.
I think your pictures are sharp enough. You should get a hot shoe flash ASAP. They give plenty of coverage for the average high school wrestling venue. Then I would crank the shutter speed up to an acceptable motion stopping value, say 1/200 sec and kick up the ISO until your f stop is in range for your lens. As my pictures before which you commented on show I use shutter priority but need to try full manual the next time as has been suggested here. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of in this group of pictures.
Nick

Nick - For some reason I have a Cannon hot shoe flash but my camera is Nikon. It does not work. I can definitely get one if it is going to help. I am standing at least 12 feet from the mat so depending on where the boys are they are always at least 15 feet from me. Sometimes much more if they are in the center or far end of the mat. Is a hot shoe flash going to reach that far? Any suggestions for an inexpensive one online for the Nikon D70?

I've been looking at flashes online and I could definitely use some advice. All of my other equipment is used so maybe that is the best way to go. Can you use any external flash with the D70? I checked out ebay but I'm not sure what to look for.

My local camera shop has these used - are they any good?
Nikon Sb-24 Ttl Flash Exc- $59.95
Nikon Sb-25 Ttl Flash Exc $99.95
Nikon Sb-25 Ttl Flash Exc $69.95
Nikon Sb-25 Ttl Flash Exc- $59.95

Man, I'm a needy person. Sorry. : )

Macushla

I purchased the Noiseware extension for Photoshop elements. Here is my first attempt at fixing photos. I think they do look a lot better.




Any suggestions?

johng

Dial back a little bit on it. It definitely takes some practice. Whenever you remove noise you also remove detail. And when you remove too much detail then things start to have a plastic look to them.

That's one of the reasons why flash is so beneficial for wrestling - because of the shadows. Shadows are where noise is more prevalant. Try to remove all that shadow noise and you remove too much detail.

For example look at the ref's arm - you've lost all the detail of the hair as well as detail in the face of the boy in shot 1. A little bit of noise is better to me than too much lost detail. But that's personal preferance.

Macushla

Thanks for the feedback, I totally agree. I'll have to play with it. I'm off to purchase an external flash. Cash is flying out of my wallet.

johng

Macushla wrote:

Cash is flying out of my wallet.

Welcome to the joys of sports photography

ole doc

regarding the flashes mentioned, I am not familiar with them . I Googled them and they appear to be much older ones. It seems the D70 is compatible with them, however. You need to worry about old flash units as they put too much juice through the contacts and can fry the camera's computer.
I suspect you would be happier with a modern Nikon or third party strobe. There are good manufacturers out there that will sell a very functional flash for not much more than the ones you quoted. Go to a shop that you trust and see what they have to offer.
You will be so much more pleased with these pictures once you get enough light.
Nick

ian408

Macushla wrote:

Cash is flying out of my wallet.

Ha ha! Wait till you lust after prime long glass

Macushla

ian408 wrote:

Ha ha! Wait till you lust after prime long glass

I don't even know what that is - but I want it.

Macushla

ole doc wrote:

regarding the flashes mentioned, I am not familiar with them . I Googled them and they appear to be much older ones. It seems the D70 is compatible with them, however. You need to worry about old flash units as they put too much juice through the contacts and can fry the camera's computer.
I suspect you would be happier with a modern Nikon or third party strobe. There are good manufacturers out there that will sell a very functional flash for not much more than the ones you quoted. Go to a shop that you trust and see what they have to offer.
You will be so much more pleased with these pictures once you get enough light.
Nick

Nick - You're advice is spot on again. I ended up opening my wallet and purchasing the SB-600.

Now I just have to figure out which mode to put the camera in. I am thinking of shutter priority mode, shutter 250 (that is the maximum sinc for the flash) Setting the IPO to 1000 and the Aperture at 3. Does that sound like a good plan. I'm shooting basketball tonight and wrestling on Sunday.

Any suggestions for better settings, I'm all ears.

johng

Macushla wrote:

Kick - You're advice is spot on again. I ended up opening my wallet and purchasing the SB-600.

Now I just have to figure out which mode to put the camera in. I am thinking of shutter priority mode, shutter 250 (that is the maximum sinc for the flash) Setting the IPO to 1000 and the Aperture at 3. Does that sound like a good plan. I'm shooting basketball tonight and wrestling on Sunday.

Any suggestions for better settings, I'm all ears.

I wouldn't use shutter priority. Use manual. Set shutter for 1/200, aperture at 3 if that's what you like and set ISO so the camera is metering at about -1 to -2 below proper. You'll have to experiment for which you prefer. But don't go over ISO 800. Leave the flash in TTL mode and it will adjut.

Macushla

johng wrote:

I wouldn't use shutter priority. Use manual. Set shutter for 1/200, aperture at 3 if that's what you like and set ISO so the camera is metering at about -1 to -2 below proper. You'll have to experiment for which you prefer. But don't go over ISO 800. Leave the flash in TTL mode and it will adjut.

Manual? I don't know if I'm ready, but since I seem to be jumping into the deep end with the whole photography thing I'll give it a shot. I'll post results. It is basketball tonight.

MT Stringer

Macushla wrote:

Manual? I don't know if I'm ready, but since I seem to be jumping into the deep end with the whole photography thing I'll give it a shot. I'll post results. It is basketball tonight.

If you are using the flash on auto, then switch the camera to manual. Set your shutter speed at 1/200, set your lens at f/3 (as you like), ISO at 640-800 or there abouts, and shoot away. The flash will take care of the exposure. If it is a little dark, increase the flash exposure compensation (or whatever Nikon calls it).

A quick question for you. Will the officials, coaches allow direct flash? I will be shooting a tournament next week and we were told no direct flash. We use strobes bounced off the ceiling and that is OK. I shoot basketball the same way. NOTE: I do not normally shoot the free throw shooter out of courtesy. I do sometimes after the ball has left their hands, but then again, the light is coming from the ceiling and not being shot directly at them.

Good luck.
MIke

Macushla

MT Stringer wrote:

If you are using the flash on auto, then switch the camera to manual. Set your shutter speed at 1/200, set your lens at f/3 (as you like), ISO at 640-800 or there abouts, and shoot away. The flash will take care of the exposure. If it is a little dark, increase the flash exposure compensation (or whatever Nikon calls it).

A quick question for you. Will the officials, coaches allow direct flash? I will be shooting a tournament next week and we were told no direct flash. We use strobes bounced off the ceiling and that is OK. I shoot basketball the same way. NOTE: I do not normally shoot the free throw shooter out of courtesy. I do sometimes after the ball has left their hands, but then again, the light is coming from the ceiling and not being shot directly at them.

Good luck.
MIke

Thanks for the suggestions. I've got the camera set to manual and used the settings you and John suggested. The BB tournament is a bunch of 10 year olds, there are no flash restrictions. I'm off.

Macushla

These were shot at f3 ISO 800 and shutter 200. They didn't come out that great and I don't know why. They were a bit yellowish. Maybe I should have changed the white balance. I did shoot some test shots but the screen on this camera is very small and I have trouble telling what is wrong.







Here are the rest of them:
http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/BrendanBB#
I edited they very quickly using just iPhoto.
(the ones above I edited in Photoshop). All suggestions welcome.

ole doc

there are some keepers in the bunch. The others suffer from focus, noise (focus and/or underexposure) and composition. BB is a foot sport so you need to drop back on the action shots to get feet and sometimes simultaneously, extended arms and ball. I think the flash did good for you. I don't see the yellow cast on my monitor but could be reflection from the floor. I see an artifact(?) on the boys' legs like tiger stripes.
You done good! You have tried to put together a lot of new things at once and did a credible job at it.
Nick

Macushla

I forgot to mention I was using the flash. I thought it might be easier to tell me what I'm doing wrong if you guys saw the photos before editing. Here is what they pretty much all looked like.


They clean up ok in photoshop but they are yellow. Is it the white balance?

Macushla

ole doc wrote:

there are some keepers in the bunch. The others suffer from focus, noise (focus and/or underexposure) and composition. BB is a foot sport so you need to drop back on the action shots to get feet and sometimes simultaneously, extended arms and ball. I think the flash did good for you. I don't see the yellow cast on my monitor but could be reflection from the floor. I see an artifact(?) on the boys' legs like tiger stripes.
You done good! You have tried to put together a lot of new things at once and did a credible job at it.
Nick

Nick I am having trouble getting the kids in focus. I only uploaded 60 photos online. There were about 150, the rest were completely out of focus. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

I agree about the leg thing. I really can't get good shots because the camera only goes to 70mm. So when the boys are on my side of the gym I can't get their entire body. When they are on the other side they are too far away so the flash doesn't work. And they would be facing the wrong way.

I'd like to get a second lens for this camera that has a wider angle.

Thanks for your input!

MT Stringer

Macushla wrote:

Nick I am having trouble getting the kids in focus. I only uploaded 60 photos online. There were about 150, the rest were completely out of focus. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

I agree about the leg thing. I really can't get good shots because the camera only goes to 70mm. So when the boys are on my side of the gym I can't get their entire body. When they are on the other side they are too far away so the flash doesn't work. And they would be facing the wrong way.

I'd like to get a second lens for this camera that has a wider angle.

Thanks for your input!

I don't have Photoshop, but in PS Elements 6.0, I can open an image (.jpg) in Adobe Camera RAW, adjust the exposure and adjust the white balance, then open it in Elements for further tweaking if necessary.

About those out of focus shots, I get a number that are out of focus, or camera movement or whatever. I would estimate my keeper rate is under 50%. So shoot, shoot, shoot, then pick out the ones that are good and sharp and throw the others out the back door. :-)

Macushla

MT Stringer wrote:

I don't have Photoshop, but in PS Elements 6.0, I can open an image (.jpg) in Adobe Camera RAW, adjust the exposure and adjust the white balance, then open it in Elements for further tweaking if necessary.

About those out of focus shots, I get a number that are out of focus, or camera movement or whatever. I would estimate my keeper rate is under 50%. So shoot, shoot, shoot, then pick out the ones that are good and sharp and throw the others out the back door. :-)

I have photoshop elements 4. I am taking a class in two weeks so hopefully I'll get better with the editing also.

I'll keep clicking away and hope for 25% at this stage.

I'm off to shoot wrestling today. Wish me luck!!!

ole doc

now don't go thinking I am a sports photog or anything but taking BB you need to let the action come to you. Position yourself where you want to take the picture and in time the kids will be there. I am not familiar with the D70 at all so I don't know how fast the autofocus is and whether you can put it on continuous autofocus which is supposed to make these action shot easier. I remember taking BB pictures with a 4x5 speed Graphic years ago where you had to manually focus. There knowing where the kid would be was important. You never tried to follow the action with that monster even with a telephoto lens.
Nick
PS what do you mean your camera only goes to 70mm I thought you were using a 70-210 zoom. The speedlight may only show 70mm but the lens goes beyond that and there is usually enough light down field to take reasonable pictures.
Nick

johng

Not too bad. As far as AF - use center point only and focus it on a point of contrast on the chest or face. Make sure you track the moving subject for a second before firing. A second seems like a short time but it isn't - the D70 has a rather old focus system and you've got to give it time to acquire and track focus.

Macushla

johng wrote:

Not too bad. As far as AF - use center point only and focus it on a point of contrast on the chest or face. Make sure you track the moving subject for a second before firing. A second seems like a short time but it isn't - the D70 has a rather old focus system and you've got to give it time to acquire and track focus.

John - There is button on the exterior of the camera that locks the focus. I accidentally keep unlocking it and the focus keeps jumping to the one where there are 5 focus points. I am working on that one.

I could not get the flash to work at all today, I'm totally hopeless. I took the photos at Shutter 1/125, Aperture f/3, ISO 1600 and had it in shutter priority. (I got these settings because that's what the man next to me was using) Pathetic, I know.

I got one great photo all day. Unfortunately it's not my kid.

The focus is pretty good and I didn't even edit at all. The colors look good to me. There may be a glimmer of hope.

Here are the rest of them:
http://picasaweb.google.com/yohenrys/PatWrestTourn#

Macushla

I threw caution to the wind and upgraded the camera. I got the Nikon D90, hopefully I'll be able to get better pictures. Next meet Sunday Feb 7.

ole doc

congratulations. Now, since taking digital pictures is almost free, put the whole system together and take random pictures around the house making sure everything works together and you are comfortable with the controls and interactions of all the pieces before you get to the match.
good luck
Nick

slipkid

I have the D90 and use the AF-C focusing mode when shooting sports. It tracks the movement pretty well. You hold down the shutter button half way and follow the action, then press it all the way down to take the picture.