Opinions Needed - Did I Handle This Right?

CyberSteak · February 3, 2010

Ok so I'm only starting out. Doing free-bies for experience and exposure. I took some engagement pics for a couple I know. Again free of charge. They've decided to use one of my pics to make their invitations with.

At first they were just going to get someone to do it for free. I didn't like how butchered the image seemed to be getting so I offered to help them design a card, again free of charge. They checked into a local print shop while I was doing this and got a price on a designed invite using the picture I took. I couldn't help but feel a little pissy.

Ignoring the time that I was putting in trying to help them design and invite, and not knowing that they were taking their business to a print shop while I was doing so, the fact that a local business was going to make money off of my image, rubbed me wrong.

They've asked for a higher quality photo so that they can use it for the invite. I told them that I didn't mind helping them out with that. But if they used my image, that it was my wish that the watermark stay intact. The only payment I'm getting from this is exposure and experience. And that watermark is the only thing that gets me exposure.

Assuming they follow my wish, my name will be discreetly watermarked on the front of the invite. Was that the right thing to do or is it tacky? I'm not sure how else I can get recognition for a photo I took without any monetary payment. This likely woudn't have bothered me so much if someone else wasn't making money off of the photo. But as it stands...it does.

Sam · February 3, 2010

Since you ask.......no you didn't handle it right. (At least in my opinion)

You offered to take photos of a couple you know for FREE. You gave them the images for FREE. Nothing was said up front about usage, etc.

Depending how you asked, I could go for the a small watermark.

The print shop isn't "making money" off your photo. They are only using a photo their client, couple, is providing. The couple could use a different photo, but they like the one you gave them.

This is a very minor issue. Seriously if you have any concerns about your image usage, just spell it out upfront.

You said you were doing this for the experience. Well you got what you wanted, experience, the couple got what they wanted a photo.

Sam

termina3 · February 3, 2010

Why not, instead of placing a potentially marring watermark on your image, make sure that the couple includes a small note on their invitation recognizing that the photo was your work?

Something like "Thanks to our friend abc for the photo you see on the front! If you like his work, you can reach him at 012-345-6789" on the back would be great. Or, shorter "Photo by ABC."

SimpsonBrothers · February 3, 2010

I agree with Sam.

Once you gave them the photo for free it is their choice what happens after that.

All they have to give you is a "Thanks for pushing the button."

You got exactly what you offered.

BradfordBenn · February 3, 2010

I have to agree with Sam and the others, once you said you were going to do it for free without any explicitly spelled out restrictions or renumeration they can do what they want with the photo. Was it impolite for them to have the print shop do the layout for them. Perhaps, but if the print shop is doing it for free to assure the quality of the printing that they are doing the print shop is doing the right thing for both the customer and your picture.

Also there is the other side of the coin, people put less of a value on something that is "free". I have seen this quite often at work. When we include services for free with our products, it is taken for granted. When we do the same service but put a cost on the invoice with a credit/discount underneath it, the customer gives the service a value.

A little proactive communication would have probably avoided this situation.

angevin1 · February 4, 2010

Without having a watermark there, and without you uttering a sound, people always ask HER Who took your photo. How will she respond?

CyberSteak · February 4, 2010

Hmmm. Guess I missed some detail. When we started the shoot I did tell them that I wouldn't be expecting any payment. But would be watermarking the photos as a form of payment (advertising/exposure). They had no issue with this at all. The only reason I mentioned the watermark again is that the first person who they had trying to put something together had completely hacked off the watermark by cropping it in a diamond shape.

So yeah it's not like I said, 'hey I took these photos for you and want nothing in return.' I was pretty clear that they'd be watermarked and that I would want them to keep them that way whenever they reproduced them. Does that make a differece?

And I wouldn't be oppose to something on the back of the card even saying "Photo done by..." That'd be acceptable to me also.

Sam · February 4, 2010

Steven,

I will stick by my original comments.

You say " I was pretty clear that they'd be watermarked and that I would want them to keep them that way whenever they reproduced them."

Pretty clear? To you or them?

When they asked for a high rez file to print i could see saying something like:

That's great! I am really pleased you choose one of my photos for your invitations. If you can give me more info I can make sure the crop, color space etc is done for your card, and how would you feel about a small watermark on the image with my name (studio)?

No push, no I was pretty clear, no negativity.

It's hard to see them say no. No alcohol, no drugs, not even chocolate and everybody is happy.

Sam

CyberSteak · February 4, 2010

Sam I think I've left you with an impression that I was being pushy about the watermark. When I took the photos initially I told them that I'd like to process them with a very discreet watermark on the corner and asked if that'd be ok, they said that'd be fine. They agreed that this would be ok. But apparently it wasn't.

When asked for a higher quality image I was very acommodating and yes, asked what size it would be so that I could crop accordingly. This is what I had told them regarding the watermark...

The only other thing I would like to request is that if you're using this image to take to _________, that my watermark remain intact. I took these pics as a favour to you and _____ as well as for the experience. But it doesn't feel right to have done these for free, only for a business to come along and make money off of the picture. Credit for the photos is the only form of payment I'm requesting. That credit would come from the watermark. Let me know if that's going to be a problem.

Haven't heard anything back. And again I only made this request because it was so obvious with what the other person had tried to put together that the watermark was being very obviously cropped out. If the watermark was agreed to as far as payment, should I expect anything less?

Obviously this is a learning experience and I've already decided (one session in) that I'm not going to do feebies anymore. I'll definately be setting something up a little more concrete next time as far as payment, usage, and expectations goes.

Sam · February 4, 2010

Sorry about any unwarranted impressions. I swear I am going to give up trying to communicate via the internet.

On second thought. If the printer cut off your watermark, and / or offered to print the image without getting some verification of rights he / she is definitely negligent. Of course your friend could have told the printer he had the rights needed, and this is after all a small issue.

It did / does seem like a lot to do over a small thing. I wouldn't get bent about the print shop making money on your photo for reasons stated previously. Since no mention of money / payment was made at the time the photos were taken I guess it seems to rub me the wrong way to even bring that up. (Don't know any other way to say it)

Asking is great. Why they would say no is beyond me but if they say no, well then live and learn.

One philosophy I have and use is if I am willing to give / release, money / photo services / items / favors, etc without anything in writing I am willing to walk away from it empty handed and not loose sleep over it. I make that decision up front. If I think to myself..............self I would really be POed if this went south. I get it in writing.

Don't be bitter, don't abuse the Jack Daniels

and good luck.

Sam

Seefutlung · February 4, 2010

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the watermark (period). The couple received free images and you get a bit of advertising.

Watermarks are used by most/all studio photogs on their products ... so why not you?

Watermarks also carry a "I am a professional" sorta label, (while we all here know better ... it still has a tendency to carry that kind of weight with the general population).

I think it's a win-win for all parties. As for you being a bit pieved that the printer is cashing in while you're not ... well hey ... you made and agreed to the terms ... (don't you hate people who move next to an airport then start complaining about the noise ... don't be one of those people).

CyberSteak · February 7, 2010

Well the wheels fell off of this one...

i just wanted to thank you for all your help and work. we have had another picture done we are going to use. if i can still get the remainder of the pictures you have from that photo session on cd that would be great.
thank you

What? Huh? So the first opportunity they had to give me credit for the photos, they bailed. There wasn't even a discussion. I left it open saying if it was going to be a problem let me know. But instead they decided to go with another photo. It leaves me with exactly 0 motivation to finish these photos off for them. Why am I going to spend another dozen hours editing pics when I'm likely not going to get out of this what I wanted...exposure. Maybe I'm being too sensitive. But it really makes me want to just delete the whole file and tell them it just isn't worth it to me anymore.

Art Scott · February 8, 2010

CyberSteak wrote:

Well the wheels fell off of this one...

i just wanted to thank you for all your help and work. we have had another picture done we are going to use. if i can still get the remainder of the pictures you have from that photo session on cd that would be great.
thank you

What? Huh? So the first opportunity they had to give me credit for the photos, they bailed. There wasn't even a discussion. I left it open saying if it was going to be a problem let me know. But instead they decided to go with another photo. It leaves me with exactly 0 motivation to finish these photos off for them. Why am I going to spend another dozen hours editing pics when I'm likely not going to get out of this what I wanted...exposure. Maybe I'm being too sensitive. But it really makes me want to just delete the whole file and tell them it just isn't worth it to me anymore.

Finish the job.....shows professionalism......put an almost transparent watermark thur the middle of all photos....literal watermark - © 2010 studio name - with it in the middle they can't just crop it out......also a text file (in a separate folder) added to the disk that explains the original agreement and expectations.....by putting the text file and als othe photos in separate folders it forces the printer(s) to notice the text file ( named aptly copyright agreement or something similar).......and also offer them a gallery at your site if you can sell off that site....if not don't mention to them.
But finish the job.....it won't be the last time someone tries to take advantage of you in this biz.

Sam · February 8, 2010

The issue here is that the agreement between the two of you is not clear. You have one interpretation and they have a different understanding.

I really recommend you finish processing the images and provide them. (I belive both parties agreed to this)

I would put a small watermark on the bottom, but absolutely would not put one in the middle. Putting one in the middle will provide them with an image they can't use so what would be the point? It will only aggravate them and produce unkind rumors about you. You admitted there was no intent to sell images.

Remember: No good deed goes unpunished! I can assure you a few of my good deeds have cost WAY more than a little process time and disappointment.

A very cheap lesson.

Relax, no one died, you still have your camera gear.

Sam

Tawnya · February 8, 2010

Your spending a dozen hours on processing?

I'd tweek them in Lightroom, and hand them over.

Pupator · February 9, 2010

CyberSteak wrote:

Well the wheels fell off of this one...

i just wanted to thank you for all your help and work. we have had another picture done we are going to use. if i can still get the remainder of the pictures you have from that photo session on cd that would be great.
thank you

What? Huh? So the first opportunity they had to give me credit for the photos, they bailed. There wasn't even a discussion. I left it open saying if it was going to be a problem let me know. But instead they decided to go with another photo.

I'm not trying to be rude but I do want to answer your request for feedback. If I'd gotten the e-mail from you that you posted above I would have found other pictures to use too.

Read what you sent to the client, especially this part:

But it doesn't feel right to have done these for free, only for a business to come along and make money off of the picture. Credit for the photos is the only form of payment I'm requesting. That credit would come from the watermark.

It sounds petty. It sounds like you might later become even more petty.

Look at the way Sam made the same request:

That's great! I am really pleased you choose one of my photos for your invitations. If you can give me more info I can make sure the crop, color space etc is done for your card, and how would you feel about a small watermark on the image with my name (studio)?

The difference may seem small at first blush but to a customer (who doesn't understand the world of photography) the difference is night and day.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on you here - we ALL make mistakes like this. The goal is that this would be a learning experience.

I agree with what others have said also, you need to take the rest of the pictures, spend 20 minutes tweaking them in Lightroom, put your watermark on all of them, and give the couple a high-rez CD. You're going to get some word-of-mouth advertising out of this. All that's left to determine is whether it will be good or bad.

Blaker · February 9, 2010

I hope you learned at least 2 things from this experience:

1) Don't work for free

2) Spell out *everything* in a contract

Pupator · February 9, 2010

Blaker wrote:

I hope you learned at least 2 things from this experience:

1) Don't work for free

2) Spell out *everything* in a contract

:nah Nah. Arrangements like this can work without a fee and without a contract. You just have to be clear up front about what your expectations are and you have to maintain excellent customer service throughout.

zoomer · February 10, 2010

Once you start down a path you are kind of committed to it.
I would have continued to help them out and not changed the deal at the end by insisting on a watermark.
But that is me, you did not do anything wrong certainly.

The word of mouth you would have gained from the couple telling their friends about how great you were to help them out and that they should call you, would have been worth a lot more that having your watermark on their announcements....which nobody would read anyway.

Just my opinion.

Opinions Needed - Did I Handle This Right?

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