Flash recommendation for the Canon 20D

JimM

Anyone have a good flash recommendation for the 20D? I would like to be able to do rear-curtain syncs as well as normal flash.

Thanks!

dragon300zx

Don't know about the rear curtain sync's as I haven't done them myself but these two flashes are the ones typically used with that canon dslr's especially the 20D.

Canon 580EX or Sigma Super DG500.

Red Baron

I have the 420EX and the 580EX - both work just fine, however, if you can afford it, go for the 580EX. I'm not a flash wizard by any means but the pictures I've been able to get with my 580EX I've never been able to produce with any other flash.

In addition to the great pictures the 580EX produces, I like the following features of this flash:
1. one button swivel for both vertical and horizontal adjustment
2. fast recharge times
3. efficient battery usage
4. on-flash FEC - push the set button, turn the rotating dial on the flash, set again and you're done
5. LCD
6. The built-in catchlight panel (I'd add the wide angle panel as well, although, I've never used it).

Others have complained that their 20Ds underexpose with the 580EX usually by 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop. This is no big deal in my mind and easily fixed with FEC if need be.

The only thing I really don't like is the flimsy feeling batter compartment door but this is common to other Canon flashes too.

mercphoto

Red Baron wrote:

Others have complained that their 20Ds underexpose with the 580EX usually by 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop.

I've heard this complaint before as well, and I've seen it myself, but only in close indoor photography, such as in a living room. However, I've found it easy enough to fix by NEVER FLASHING DIRECTLY AT A CLOSE SUBJECT. So I tilt the flash head up 45 degrees, extend the built-in bounce shield, and voila... nice pictures. I sometimes even dial-in a little negative FEC. For outdoors (such as my kart racing) the flash head is straight ahead and -2/3 FEC.

I have the same feeling about the flimsy battery door too.

JimM

Do you know if any of the older Canon flashes will work well with the 20D? The price tag of the 580 is a little steep.

dragon300zx

Jim thats what makes the sigma such a sweet deal. Pretty much the same spec's as the 580 half the price. The EZ series flashes are something everyone says stay away from. The 420EX is a cheaper solution. But doesn't have the ETTL-II that the 580 and dg super 500 have.

ScottMcLeod

Woah woah woah...

The Sigma 500 can do everything the 580 Can do?

I hate to hijack, but does anyone here have a Sigma 500 that would be willing to chat with me in another thread about it?

JimM

keep it coming in this thread, I would like to know more about it as well...

also, it has been a long time since I was shopping for a flash, what does "ETTL-II" stand for?

dragon300zx

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Woah woah woah...

The Sigma 500 can do everything the 580 Can do?

I hate to hijack, but does anyone here have a Sigma 500 that would be willing to chat with me in another thread about it?

Now I didn't say it could do everything. But look up the specs on em they are pretty damn close to the same. And it's not the regular sigma 500 its the super 500. Iv'e got one of them. Gotta read posts word for word skimming leads to assumptions, and assumptions leads to, :moon

ScottMcLeod

Will it fire strobe? (multi-fire?)

pathfinder

Red Baron wrote:

I have the 420EX and the 580EX - both work just fine, however, if you can afford it, go for the 580EX. I'm not a flash wizard by any means but the pictures I've been able to get with my 580EX I've never been able to produce with any other flash.

In addition to the great pictures the 580EX produces, I like the following features of this flash:
1. one button swivel for both vertical and horizontal adjustment
2. fast recharge times
3. efficient battery usage
4. on-flash FEC - push the set button, turn the rotating dial on the flash, set again and you're done
5. LCD
6. The built-in catchlight panel (I'd add the wide angle panel as well, although, I've never used it).

Others have complained that their 20Ds underexpose with the 580EX usually by 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop. This is no big deal in my mind and easily fixed with FEC if need be.

The only thing I really don't like is the flimsy feeling batter compartment door but this is common to other Canon flashes too.

The 580ex is the best electronic flash I have ever experienced for all the reasons listed above. I am able to get shots that do not look like electronic flash much of the time. And using Fill Flash is SO easy I do it almost all the time with the flash.

If the Sigma is as good as the 580ex, it must be great, but I have no experience in this regard. It would be most interesting to hear from someone who actually owns and uses the 580ex and the Sigma Super 500. I would pass on the 420ex. The 580ex is really that much better than the 420. YMMV

Yeah, the battery doors is hokey on all the Canon flashes - I use rechargeable NIMhs in mine.

dragon300zx

ScottMcLeod wrote:

Will it fire strobe? (multi-fire?)

yeah.

photobug

All "EX" flashes work with 20D

JimM wrote:

Do you know if any of the older Canon flashes will work well with the 20D? The price tag of the 580 is a little steep.

All Canon "EX" flashes will work with the 20D (you just won't get E-TTL II exposure except with the 580EX)

I used a 420EX with the 20D until I got the 580EX and it worked fine. (A $20 Stofen OmniBounce diffuser is a great option for either of them, for much softer, diffused lighting) I'd bet that you could pick up a very good used 420EX in the $100-$130 range (try eBay or perhaps Amazon).

= bug.

BigAl

photobug wrote:

All Canon "EX" flashes will work with the 20D (you just won't get E-TTL II exposure except with the 580EX)

Interesting, in the 20d manual (p97) it says "The camera can execute ETTL II autoflash with any EX-series speedlite". This same sentence occurs in the 350d manual (p101).

Is ETTL II a function of the camera, the flash or a combination of the two?

regards
alan

pathfinder

BigAl wrote:

Interesting, in the 20d manual (p97) it says "The camera can execute ETTL II autoflash with any EX-series speedlite". This same sentence occurs in the 350d manual (p101).

Is ETTL II a function of the camera, the flash or a combination of the two?

regards
alan

If my understanding is correct, it is a function of both in a sense. ETTL ii was introduced with the debut of the 1DMkll and continued with the 1DsMkll and the 20D. It is built into the camera body firmware. See this article http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/eosfaq/ettl2.html

But ETTL II is also only functional with certain flash units that provide the needed PreFlash before firing the flash for the illumination. The 580ex, the 550ex, the 420ex, and apparently the 220ex are all ETTL and ETTL II capable . See this article http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/eosfaq/ex_speedlites.html


addendum: As per the article by Bob Atkins linked above - NOT ALL Canon lenses will input distance focus data to the camera body for use in ETTL-II - for instance the 50 f1.4 and the 85 f1.2 L do not. MOST USM motor lenses do, most non-USM motor lenses do not. SO not only do the body and flash need to support ETTL-II - but to achieve the very best result with the distance data point incorporated, the appropriate lens also needs to be used.

Red Baron

My understanding is that ETTL II is a function of the camera and not the flash for reasons noted by Big Al. This makes sense to me, otherwise, how could the 420EX "become" a ETTL II compatible flash when used on the 20D and yet not be ETTL II compatible on the 10D?

dragon300zx

Hmmm, I just don't see why the companies would then advertise the 580EX and DG SUPER 500 as being ETTL II compatible while only advertising their other flashes as being only ETTL compatible. Canon especially would bill it in their product specs to make their flashes seem worth the extra cost of the canon name.

Red Baron

Good point to which I have no answer. Looking at the Canon flash bible (http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/) it says:

there are two important points to keep in mind. First, E-TTL II does not require any changes to either the flash units or lenses used with an E-TTL II camera - the changes are all basically internal to the camera body.

The article then goes on to say:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Camera units which support E-TTL II:
EOS 1D mark II, EOS 30V/33V/7S/Elan 7N/Elan 7EN, EOS 20D/20Da, EOS 350D/Rebel X Digital/Kiss N Digital.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Flash units which support E-TTL II:
All EX series Speedlites: 220EX, 380EX, 420EX, 550EX, 580EX, MR-14EX, MT-24EX.[/size][/font]

The above comments confuse the matter in my mind, however, it's my understanding is that you must have an ETTL II compatible body to take advantage of ETTL II. This would explain why a 420EX is ETTL II compatible on a 20D whereas an ETTL II compatible flash like the 580EX cannot take advantage of ETTL II on a 10D (the 10D not being a ETTL II supportable body)

Can anyone else shed some light on this issue?

dragon300zx wrote:

Hmmm, I just don't see why the companies would then advertise the 580EX and DG SUPER 500 as being ETTL II compatible while only advertising their other flashes as being only ETTL compatible. Canon especially would bill it in their product specs to make their flashes seem worth the extra cost of the canon name.

gtc

i read it the same way-EX range=ETTL-II

Red Baron wrote:

Good point to which I have no answer. Looking at the Canon flash bible (http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/) it says:

there are two important points to keep in mind. First, E-TTL II does not require any changes to either the flash units or lenses used with an E-TTL II camera - the changes are all basically internal to the camera body.

The article then goes on to say:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Camera units which support E-TTL II:
EOS 1D mark II, EOS 30V/33V/7S/Elan 7N/Elan 7EN, EOS 20D/20Da, EOS 350D/Rebel X Digital/Kiss N Digital.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Flash units which support E-TTL II:
All EX series Speedlites: 220EX, 380EX, 420EX, 550EX, 580EX, MR-14EX, MT-24EX.[/size][/font]

The above comments confuse the matter in my mind, however, it's my understanding is that you must have an ETTL II compatible body to take advantage of ETTL II. This would explain why a 420EX is ETTL II compatible on a 20D whereas an ETTL II compatible flash like the 580EX cannot take advantage of ETTL II on a 10D (the 10D not being a ETTL II supportable body)

GTC WRITES:
It reads to me the the same way that you understand it-camera functionality must incorporate ETTL II for an ETTL II compatible flash to communicate-so EX flashes are ETTL II compatible because ETTL II was introduced to later models cameras and Canon designed it to be backwards compatible with the existing range of EX flashes.

If it wasn't backwards compatible then ETTL-II,to be functional ,would require later model camera owners to buy a new range of flashes which haven't been made yet...oh...hold on... I think my brain has exploded...not to worry, I wasn't using it much anyway.

Anyway-for macro it appears that a smaller secondhand EX flash would have ETTL-II capability and probably give me enough light until I can spend up and buy a nice new Sigma with ETTL-II capability.Thanks guys-a very valuable thread which has saved me some buck$.

gtc

marketeers?

dragon300zx wrote:

Hmmm, I just don't see why the companies would then advertise the 580EX and DG SUPER 500 as being ETTL II compatible while only advertising their other flashes as being only ETTL compatible. Canon especially would bill it in their product specs to make their flashes seem worth the extra cost of the canon name.

maybe its due to marketeers trying to con those who must have the latest and greatest of everything into buying the most expensive flash in the range?

blackwaterstudio

I've got a sigma super 500 ETTL-II for my 20D and it works great. Many reviews have placed it up there with the 580ex at half the price.

KA0TVO

JimM wrote:

Anyone have a good flash recommendation for the 20D? I would like to be able to do rear-curtain syncs as well as normal flash.

Thanks!

Jim,
I have the Sigma 500 and it has worked well for me. I guess I have over 600 flashes on it without any difficulty. easy on the batteries as well.

ginger_55

Stupid question: I noticed that one Canon flash, cheaper than the 580 EX, it was for lenses not wide and not long.

With the 580 EX, I don't notice the lens length making a difference.

Does it?

ginger

does anyone use this stuff for birds?

pathfinder

ginger_55 wrote:

Stupid question: I noticed that one Canon flash, cheaper than the 580 EX, it was for lenses not wide and not long.

With the 580 EX, I don't notice the lens length making a difference.

Does it?

ginger

does anyone use this stuff for birds?

Some flashes fall off in the corners with wide angle lenses - the 580 seems ok with my 28-75mm zoom. I have not really tried it with a 16mm lens, so no comment. I ma sure it is pretty good at 21mm on a 20D

I use fill flash with a Better Beamer for birds. Without the Beamer, it is probably a waste of time at greater than 15-20 feet.

The more you do to imrove your pictures, the more gadgets you have to juggle. Fill Flash is great for lots of shots, but a Better Beamer is large, and has to be assembled each time you go out, so I don't always use it. It also depends on whether the birds side facing the lens is in the shade. It can be a big help in pics in the deep shade due to foilage.

ginger_55

http://www.adorama.com/SG500EOSDG.html


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=352109&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


Which is better, I want to order it tomorrow, Saturday. What about the bracket? I read from Moose, the wildlife photographer that the flash has to be off of the camera. ???? And I know you all said Super, but you all said something else, too, that Adorama does not say. I am kind of confused.

FM does give this good reviews, whichever one it is..............

Or maybe I am just totally nuts??? I read on this stuff, and I am not sure what I am reading. I need the flash for baptisms, but not enough to "pay" for it, I could keep using the on camera flash. And family gatherings: the same story.

But if it helps with birds, well, I can't afford the super long lenses, I just thought this might help????

ginger

pathfinder

ginger_55 wrote:

http://www.adorama.com/SG500EOSDG.html


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=352109&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


Which is better, I want to order it tomorrow, Saturday. What about the bracket? I read from Moose, the wildlife photographer that the flash has to be off of the camera. ???? And I know you all said Super, but you all said something else, too, that Adorama does not say. I am kind of confused.

FM does give this good reviews, whichever one it is..............

Or maybe I am just totally nuts??? I read on this stuff, and I am not sure what I am reading. I need the flash for baptisms, but not enough to "pay" for it, I could keep using the on camera flash. And family gatherings: the same story.

But if it helps with birds, well, I can't afford the super long lenses, I just thought this might help????

ginger

I looked at both links Ginger, and they seem like the same flash to me. But the B&H link is about $75 bucks cheaper and apparently dedicated for the Canon EOS system, Eg: if probably won't work on a Nikon or a Sigma cameras. The B&H link also specifies that it is ETTL-II funtional which is preferable. I think it will work fine for you.

RRS an others - Wimberly, Kirk, etc make flash extension brackets to raise the flash up above the telelphoto lens - this is to avoid red eye if you were shooting people. But if you add a flash extension bracket then you also need a flash extension cord from Canon to connect the body to the flash. See here --http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=12972&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation



An alternative to an off shoe cord like above is the wireless transmitter the Canon ST-E2 infra-red transmitter, which is very sweet , but expensive. See here - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=164264&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

ginger_55

They can't be the same flash, that is why I am confused. Somewhere in this thread it specifies that the flash HAS to be the SUPER. Adorama, with the super, as you pt out more expensive, it also has the one B&H has. Just not as much info.

Adorama is just deficient in info. My concern is throwing enough light for the birds. And that is why I think I am crazy, but the men who write books are going into using flash more and more for their birds. But who knows, they might all be at the gator farm, right next to the birds to be shot.

The reason I am kind of in a hurry is that I am going to a family get together next weekend. Oldest grandson's going to college after grad from high school party. Kind of a big deal, and I want a flash, a regular flash for that. If that is all I am going to use it for, I would get the cheaper one for sure.

The reason I was thinking about a bracket, and I can't really afford it, but one of the bird guys says that one MUST have a bracket to make the birds look right. I get the impression that this bird/flash thing is kind of new and complicated.

thanks for responding. am tired, going to bed.:D

ginger

Steve Cavigliano

ginger_55 wrote:

http://www.adorama.com/SG500EOSDG.html


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=352109&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


Which is better, I want to order it tomorrow, Saturday. What about the bracket? I read from Moose, the wildlife photographer that the flash has to be off of the camera. ???? And I know you all said Super, but you all said something else, too, that Adorama does not say. I am kind of confused.

FM does give this good reviews, whichever one it is..............

Or maybe I am just totally nuts??? I read on this stuff, and I am not sure what I am reading. I need the flash for baptisms, but not enough to "pay" for it, I could keep using the on camera flash. And family gatherings: the same story.

But if it helps with birds, well, I can't afford the super long lenses, I just thought this might help????

ginger

Ginger,
I have the EX580, so you'll have to rely on feedback from Sigma flash users as to which of the above is best. I know that the "Super" is much more powerful and I believe it would work better with a Better Beamer. I'm not sure how wide of angle they each cover though. I know the 580 head zooms in and out (within limits) depending on the focal length of lens being used.

As you point out, they all seem to get decent reviews. If you are using the flash for weddings and baptisms, I think either of the Sigmas or even the EX420 would cover you. For multiple use, like for birding, the stronger the flash, the better (like the Sigma Super, or the 580).

I'm clueless on brackets. If you do lots of people shooting, it's probably a good idea to use one. It will give you more options and it will help to reduce red-eye.

The Better Beamer helps a little with birds. Mainly ones in mixed lighting or for underwing shots. As PF wrote, mostly used as a fill. As he also points out, it's a PITA to set up and use unless you know it will be required. It makes the camera a bit bulky and the BB can fall off if you move your cam quickly and the BB isn't attached solidly. FWIW, I like to keep mine a bit loose for ease of attachement/removal

Sorry I can't help here Ging. All I can say is that I'm really happy with the EX580, but it sure was expensive :uhoh IMHO, for a person on a budget, the Sigmas and the 420 would sure be worth looking into. Plus, if you are thinking of picking up the 580 somewhere down the road, you can control the 420 with it and use it as a slave


Steve

dlove

ginger_55 wrote:

http://www.adorama.com/SG500EOSDG.html


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=352109&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


Which is better, I want to order it tomorrow, Saturday. What about the bracket? I read from Moose, the wildlife photographer that the flash has to be off of the camera. ???? And I know you all said Super, but you all said something else, too, that Adorama does not say. I am kind of confused.

FM does give this good reviews, whichever one it is..............

Or maybe I am just totally nuts??? I read on this stuff, and I am not sure what I am reading. I need the flash for baptisms, but not enough to "pay" for it, I could keep using the on camera flash. And family gatherings: the same story.

But if it helps with birds, well, I can't afford the super long lenses, I just thought this might help????

ginger

The more expensive one is the DG Super, and the other is the DG ST. The DG Super is the one you want

ziggy53

"E-TTL II"

Red Baron wrote:

Can anyone else shed some light on this issue?

After reading what information there is about "E-TTL II", and how it is different from "E-TTL", I think what is happening is that the pre-flash for the E-TTL II has to occur before the exposure and the camera has to interpret the information against the exposure mode of the camera and lens settings, and then information is sent back to the flash taking all that into consideration. At that point, E-TTL takes over, and the flash still communicates with the camera through the exposure, moderated by the E-TTL II information.

The camera and the flash have to coordinate and communicate to a degree that's not possible if either one does not support full E-TTL II.

I would compare it to two devices in communications: Half-Duplex (Simplex) occurs unless both devices can communicate full Duplex.

ziggy53