Lighting equipment: bounce or diffuse?

LiveAwake

Hey all,

I'm not normally a wedding photographer, but a friend of mine has asked me to do her wedding and I'd like to do it right! I do more shooting outdoors than in, so I'm still figuring out my best practices with the flash.

First of all, the equipment I have already: I'll be shooting with my Nikon D300 and a variety of lenses (50mm 1.4, 105mm 2.8, 18-200 3.5-5.6). I have an SB-800 as my main flash. I can also use the pop-up for a little extra fill, and if needed I can even throw in my SB-R200 units if needed (though that sounds like a lot of gear to carry around at once).

My main question has to do with the difference between using a bounce diffuser like the lumiquest Pocket-Bounce or Big-Bounce, vs. a soft box diffuser like the Lumiquest Softbox series.

Which will allow more light to reach the subject?
What are significant difference I will see in the pictures?
Anything else I should know?

Finally, are there any good techniques for compensating for the fact that I have only two hands? Ideally I want the main flash OFF the camera and held to one side, to give a nice side-shadow on most of the pics. But then I only have one hand to control/steady my camera . . . how do people do this?

Thanks!

ziggy53

I moved this to the Technique forum, since it really is more related to "how" a wedding is done photographically.

First, don't try to shoot with a single camera or single flash or a single anything. A wedding ceremony and the formals will not wait if there's a problem. Have backups for everything. Borrow or rent if you must but find a way.

I always have several different flash modifiers with me too. I use a "scoop" as primary and a couple of "bounce" methods for low ceilings.

You can create your own light modifiers (DIY). A couple that I can recommend are:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

http://abetterbouncecard.com/

Joe Demb also makes an interesting device for sale (reasonable):

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/

I own a FlipIt product and it works well and is very well made.

A site showing various modifiers in use:

http://www.the-meissners.org/2006-small-albums/2006-flashmod/index.html

I normally also use a flash bracket and I will occasionally move the flash to a position high and one side or the other of the lens, but much of the time height is more important.

Be especially careful with groups and shadows. Plan the group so that shadows fall behind but not onto anyone standing behind. If the flash is off-side then it's easy to accidentally have the shadow hit people in the next row back.

adbsgicom

Also check out Neil van Niekirk's site as well as his book on bouncing for wedding photography.

zoomer

If you want to get nice side light you can use your on camera flash and bounce off the walls/ceiling.
I use a demb diffuser and put it across the front of the flash as it points at the ceiling that gives a nice diffused light in the room, then without changing anything I can adjust the flash to point at one of the walls and provide a bounced side light.
I prefer to use a bracket.
Really easy system.

Most good wedding photographer use the bounce method for their on camera flash and without a bracket.

If you don't have helpers to carry adjust off camera lights that can really complicate things and since you have no experince with weddings...complicated is bad.

Practice with your flash in as close the same conditions as you can get. Flash take a lot of practice to get right.

LiveAwake

Thanks all for the suggestions and links. This definitely gives me a good starting point. I have a few months to experiment and prepare, so hopefully I can get a good system and a few tricks up my sleeve by then.

pathfinder

Take a gander at zoomer's galleries for how well done wedding shots. He has some very lovely work here - http://alloutdoor.smugmug.com/galleries Pay attention to his use of lighting and color balance.

Make friends with the Maid of Honor, or whoever is in charge of moving the wedding along. You will need someone to help corral family members for the family shots after the ceremony also.

Qarik

bounce diffusers all the way.

LiveAwake

Can anyone suggest a good flash bracket that hinges for landscape/portrait? The RRS WPF-1 looks really slick, but even if I decide it's worth it to shell out $150 for a bracket, all of my current gear is Manfrotto/Bogen, so this one wouldn't even fit without switching everything over to RRS (not going to happen, I'm afraid - I haven't won the lottery lately).

Is there a comparable bracket that will work with my gear?

zoomer

Stroboframe Press T.
Lightweight, sturdy, inexpensive, that is what I use.

Pathfinder, thanks for the shout out, I appreciate it!

pathfinder

Art Scott

Talking Flash brackets.................
I am moving away from stroboframes they have served me well but with a change to digital I find the bracket upright is in the way for my style.....
I am moving to Newton Brackets at B&H ......The one I will order (as soon as I get refund on Dotline that I am returning to BH) is the Di100FR2 ......Scott Quier was touting it as really well built and working very well.....and it folds up for storage into almost nothing...................

NEWTON BRACKETS HOME PAGE .......Mr. Newton is a very nice and helpful person and even suggested I buy thru B&H since I was returning a bracket to them already..................

My style of shooting has always consisted of me holding the camera with the right hand and firing normally as one would without a bracket.....left hand steadied the camera and zoomed the lens......normally a 70-210 or 24-70 f2.8.......my nikon lenses are built in such a way that the upright is in the way for clean zooming...........so a change is in the air for me........I even took oput a film camera (35mm and med format) and checked to see if i was actually doing anything different with them than I was with the D300's and nope but the DX lenses are shorter than my film lenses.....in fact my sigma Lens on my Konica Minolta 7D works fine also.....so I imagine if I bought all FX Nikon lenses I could still use the Stroboframes.....much less expensive to get a Newton Bracket.............................

ziggy53

zoomer wrote:

Stroboframe Press T.
Lightweight, sturdy, inexpensive, that is what I use.

Pathfinder, thanks for the shout out, I appreciate it!

I use and like the Stroboframe Pro-T. It is slightly taller than the Press-T but otherwise very similar.

I like to be able to position the flash at odd angles if needed, and the Pro-t design allows that geometry. (Specifically above and right in landscape orientation and above and left in portrait orientation.)

If I don't want to use a bracket, I can still get pretty good height from a "scoop" modifier alone.

rpcrowe

Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro

LiveAwake wrote:

Hey all,

I'm not normally a wedding photographer, but a friend of mine has asked me to do her wedding and I'd like to do it right! I do more shooting outdoors than in, so I'm still figuring out my best practices with the flash.

First of all, the equipment I have already: I'll be shooting with my Nikon D300 and a variety of lenses (50mm 1.4, 105mm 2.8, 18-200 3.5-5.6). I have an SB-800 as my main flash. I can also use the pop-up for a little extra fill, and if needed I can even throw in my SB-R200 units if needed (though that sounds like a lot of gear to carry around at once).

My main question has to do with the difference between using a bounce diffuser like the Lumiquest Pocket-Bounce or Big-Bounce, vs. a soft box diffuser like the Lumiquest Softbox series.

Which will allow more light to reach the subject?
What are significant difference I will see in the pictures?
Anything else I should know?

Finally, are there any good techniques for compensating for the fact that I have only two hands? Ideally I want the main flash OFF the camera and held to one side, to give a nice side-shadow on most of the pics. But then I only have one hand to control/steady my camera . . . how do people do this?

Thanks!

The Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro ( www.dembflashproducts.com ) provides excellent lighting when used with a hotshoe flash either on a flash bracket or attached to the camera.

When shooting with the flash on the camera, I prefer to have the long end of the flash pointing towards the subject (90 degrees to the camera face as shown in the attached image - the image shows only a Flip-It attached, the Flash Diffuser Pro incorporates a diffuser shield at the end of the flash opposite to the Flip-It). This actually provides pretty darn nice lighting for most situations in either portrait or landscape position. As you will notice in the image, the Flip-It reflector portion is adjustable for the distance to the subject as well as the ceiling (if any) height. The diffuser portion of the rig is placed on the edge of the flash closest to the subject.

A flash bracket will improve the lighting slightly and the Joe Demb Flash Bracket is lightweight and easy to use. However, the major lighting improvement is in using the Flash Diffuser Pro, rather than in using a flash bracket with the DFD equipped flash.

I have owned and used multiple reflector/diffusers including the Stofen, the Lumiquest Mini Softbox, the Gary Fong Whale Tail, as well as several units fabricated from cardboard and... oh yes, the trusty 3x5 index card taped to the flash unit. None of these have given me the lighting quality nor the versatility of the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro.

I am not connected to Joe Demb in any way except being a satisfied customer.

LiveAwake

Thanks all for these great suggestions. I think I will need to see if I can get my hands on a few of these options and try them for myself to see what works best for me.

As to the DFD Pro, I'm surprise to hear that it gives you better results than so many others . . . mostly because the bounce surface doesn't look that large, which I thought was the key to nice soft shadows. It does look versatile/easy to use, but I would expect softer light from some of the others out there. . . . ??

Qarik

LiveAwake wrote:

Thanks all for these great suggestions. I think I will need to see if I can get my hands on a few of these options and try them for myself to see what works best for me.

As to the DFD Pro, I'm surprise to hear that it gives you better results than so many others . . . mostly because the bounce surface doesn't look that large, which I thought was the key to nice soft shadows. It does look versatile/easy to use, but I would expect softer light from some of the others out there. . . . ??

Change your understanding..the bounce surface is HUGE. The ceiling. The attached reflector is just throw a bit of light forward to fill in any shadows under the nose, chin, eyes, etc

LiveAwake

Qarik wrote:

Change your understanding..the bounce surface is HUGE. The ceiling. The attached reflector is just throw a bit of light forward to fill in any shadows under the nose, chin, eyes, etc

Yes indeed - IF the ceiling is low and white. Unfortunately I can't count on that always being the case. How does this thing perform in banquet halls with high ceilings?

Qarik

LiveAwake wrote:

Yes indeed - IF the ceiling is low and white. Unfortunately I can't count on that always being the case. How does this thing perform in banquet halls with high ceilings?

in my experience you can bounce easily off say 20 foot ceilings..if we are talking 30 foot ceilings and reasonable ambients then it may tax your flash wrt recharge times and battery life but still possible. This will depend on your flash (ie sb600 vs 900) and if you have battery pack for example.

zoomer

I used to use the Demb, but I took off the bounce piece and now I only use the diffuser. I like it a lot better that way.
Indoors I just point the flash straight up at the ceiling and put the diffuser between the subject and the flash, works great.
If I had a ceiling that was to high I would point the flash towards the subject and still just use the diffuser.
I shoot on high iso 3200 indoors so the flash in never my only main source of light.

LiveAwake

in my experience you can bounce easily off say 20 foot ceilings..if we are talking 30 foot ceilings and reasonable ambients then it may tax your flash wrt recharge times and battery life but still possible. This will depend on your flash (ie sb600 vs 900) and if you have battery pack for example.

Wow. Obviously I've not done as much of this, but I'm surprised to hear that you can get a reasonable amount of light bouncing off of 20 ft. ceilings. I have the SB-800, which should be pretty powerful, though I don't have a battery pack . . . maybe I'll have to get one so I can boost the power and not worry too much about replacing batteries mid-ceremony.

zoomer wrote:

I used to use the Demb, but I took off the bounce piece and now I only use the diffuser. I like it a lot better that way.
Indoors I just point the flash straight up at the ceiling and put the diffuser between the subject and the flash, works great.
If I had a ceiling that was to high I would point the flash towards the subject and still just use the diffuser.
I shoot on high iso 3200 indoors so the flash in never my only main source of light.

What camera do you use? On my D300 I start to notice a moderate amount of grain around iso 1600 so I tend to try to keep it below there. 800 or less when I can, 1600 when I just have to have the extra stop. I think 3200 would be too grainy/noisy.

zoomer

The d300 will go to 1600 ok if you make sure the take your shots at a nice bright exposure. If you have to lighten them in processing they will get noisy in a hurry.
The d700 d3 can shoot at 3200 and even a little higher with a good exposure.
At 1600 there is almost no grain, I will shoot there if I can get away with it.

As mentioned 20 foot ceilings are nothing. As long as you have your ISO up to extend the range of your flash.

LiveAwake

zoomer wrote:

The d300 will go to 1600 ok if you make sure the take your shots at a nice bright exposure. If you have to lighten them in processing they will get noisy in a hurry.
The d700 d3 can shoot at 3200 and even a little higher with a good exposure.
At 1600 there is almost no grain, I will shoot there if I can get away with it.

As mentioned 20 foot ceilings are nothing. As long as you have your ISO up to extend the range of your flash.

Great, thanks for the tips. I'll be visiting the space in the next couple of weeks, so I'll do some experimentation with what I have, and decide then what I need.

Can you give me some pointers on how to go about the flash power? I've played a little with using either manual mode and estimating or using TTL and then using flash compensation. Seems like the TTL is easier/safer to reduce extra variables, so . . . if bouncing on the ceiling, should I just use TTL mode and then flash compensation to boost it a bit?

Thanks again everyone for your help. It's nice to have some pointers and things to think about before I go to the space for experimentation and buy new gear.

zoomer

I always shoot indoor flash in manual. Set it and leave it...tweak a few test shots, remember the distance from the subjects in your head and try to maintain that distance. Ride your exposure dial and distances or lighting condition change a little from shot to shot. Expose to the right try to stay right at the edge of the blinkies going off. If they go over a bit you can save it in processing, if you go to far under and have to increase your exposure in processing it adds a lot of noise.
Don't trust your monitor on the back of your camera indoors with flash, if you go by what your monitor looks like without checking your histogram you will have a mess of underexposed shots.

LiveAwake

zoomer wrote:

I always shoot indoor flash in manual. Set it and leave it...tweak a few test shots, remember the distance from the subjects in your head and try to maintain that distance. Ride your exposure dial and distances or lighting condition change a little from shot to shot. Expose to the right try to stay right at the edge of the blinkies going off. If they go over a bit you can save it in processing, if you go to far under and have to increase your exposure in processing it adds a lot of noise.
Don't trust your monitor on the back of your camera indoors with flash, if you go by what your monitor looks like without checking your histogram you will have a mess of underexposed shots.

Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely have to experiment a bit with this. Do you really maintain the same distance from your subjects for an entire wedding? It's hard for me to imagine that not completely cramping my style or making me miss great shots.

I will definitely watch the histograms and blinkies, though.

I just saw pictures of the inside of one of the rooms we will be in. It has slanted wooden ceilings, which will make for some interesting bounce options . . . .

Qarik

I on the other hand always shoot TTL for candids and adjust FEV. Just too much variation going from shot to shot. Zoomer is very expereinced so I am sure he does fine with manual. If you have the luxury of posing and setup shots where distance and light conditions are not chaninging much then manual can work and is probably the better choice. If you don't have that luxury and don't have as much expereince then I would reccomend TTL all the way.

zoomer

I used to shoot ttl and everytime you are focused on a white or black item, like dress or tux you get wild swings of exposure.
Sometimes I still shoot ttl, always use single point focus on the face when possible and and adjust focus points as necessary..that way you get a fairly consistent exposure.
With manual flash you can quickly adjust via the exposure wheel if you are closer or further away than the common distance you have your exposure set up for.
Yes most of the time I can maintain the same distance because I see what is coming up and plan ahead, then when things do happen fast sometimes I just adjust the exposure compensation as required quickly with my thumb if I am closer or further than the common distance I have the flash set up for.

I imagine every photographer manages their flash differently. I am completely self taught so have no idea how other people do it, I just know what works for me. I live by the blinkies and ride the exposure wheel, in manual I use the shutter speed wheel to adjust exposure on the fly, to keep the exposure right at the edge of blown out then adjust as necessary in processing.

Justiceiro

ziggy53 wrote:

First, don't try to shoot with a single camera or single flash or a single anything. A wedding ceremony and the formals will not wait if there's a problem. Have backups for everything. Borrow or rent if you must but find a way.

I agree. This is absolutely critical. In addition to losing shots while you switch lenses (and you will lose shots) you will also have to worry about getting dust on the sensor as you switch the lenses. You won't be able to check it efficiently on the lcd, and if you try you'll be wasting valuable seeing time.

The people who are getting married won't have the same quality expectations that you have. That is to say, they won't be scanning the photos for razor sharpness at high magnification- they'll want good shots of events or moments they find important, rather than a set of perfectly exposed and lit shots that don't include these moments. Non-photographers often see, and value, pictures differently than we do.

LiveAwake

zoomer wrote:

I used to shoot ttl and everytime you are focused on a white or black item, like dress or tux you get wild swings of exposure.
Sometimes I still shoot ttl, always use single point focus on the face when possible and and adjust focus points as necessary..that way you get a fairly consistent exposure.

Are you shooting with spot-metering then? I wouldn't expect this issue unless you're set to spot-metering, which I cannot imagine using for any kind of shoot where I didn't have time to carefully set up each shot.

Either way, I'm intrigued to try both methods and see which one fits me better.

zoomer

Yes I always spot meter when using flash, and focus and meter on the face.