Mimicking Natural Light

divamum

As many of you know, I'm a huge fan of the shallow dof, natural light portrait style so popular with current actor headshots, eg here, or the style of our very own Mitchell.

No problem understanding how to use reflector to get it etc etc. BUT... what if there just isn't enough natural light to do the job?

I have a few things coming up where I know this is the look that will be desired, but the weather is variable enough (and schedules complex enough) that I know I'm not always going to be able to rely on nature to give me the light I want. I'm guessing I can bounce flash onto a big reflector, plus a second reflector to fill in shadows? Any other ways of "cheating" when reality doesn't cooperate?

I'm not looking for advice on fill flash, really, which I don't think will give me the look I want (unless I'm missing something - by all means share if there's a way of doing that to give me what I need!) - I'm looking for ways of creating that reflector+natural light "glow" on the face.

Mitchell

I'll take a stab at this.

I don't think you can mimick the effect of natural light. Having said that, I think you may be overestimating the amount of natural light you actually need to have an effective portrait.

Overcast days can be wonderful. Sure you need to bump up the ISO, but with today's cameras, I have little fear of any noise with a properly exposed portrait. I shoot in the garage, but you can achieve the look you want with a large window with nice indirect light. I don't do this often, but white foam core reflectors indoors are necessary to control and direct your light.

You've got the cropping and the style down. You just need to experiment a bit more with the natural light available to you. The only time you don't have enough natural light is at night.

divamum

Thanks Mitchell. THing is... I think even OVERCAST down south you get better quality light by dint of where you are (there's a reason that the film industry went to Hollywood and other warm, bright climates!)

I have two big living room windows, but they only get indirect morning light (east facing, lots of trees). But it has to be bright enough to capitalize on it - when I used it unenhanced for that shoot the other day, I couldn't eke enough lumens out of a crop-sensor camera to keep shutter speeds reaonsable without bumping up the ISO to 800 or 1600, which I think is simply too high for a shot which will be printed, at least with my current bodies. I can get decent natural light shots in there, eg the one below, but sometimes the light just won't play nice, hence why I'm trying to figure out any techniques i can use to make it work no matter what.

(and yes, this one is a tad too shallow DOF, but it was just me footling around to see what I could come up with a few months back)

LiquidAir

Here is something to try: hang a scrim (like a white bed sheet) over those windows and the fire a couple of stobes at them from outside the house using a radio slave. The natural daylight will then act like a modelling light and the pop from the strobe will let you shoot at a more reasonable ISO.

There are a couple of interesting properties of indirect natural light. The first is that often they are quite large: the best way I have found to create very large sources is using scrims. The other property is that often natural light has very complex color because it bounces of a variety of surfaces so the shadows will have a diffent color than the highlights and often different parts of the highlight will take on subtlely different colors. Some of this you can reproduce by tinting your scrims but is will definitely take some experimentation to get the effect you want.

aktse

LiquidAir wrote:

Here is something to try: hang a scrim (like a white bed sheet) over those windows and the fire a couple of stobes at them from outside the house using a radio slave. The natural daylight will then act like a modelling light and the pop from the strobe will let you shoot at a more reasonable ISO.

This is exactly what Joe McNally does, with or without the scrim.

Actually, i think one of his favorite flash gadget is a stolen hotel bed sheet.

1. He's a 911 firefighter; he lost soooooo many friends on 911


Note: I might have pressed the shutter for this shot, but I didn't setup this photo. Joe set it up and this is SOC. I learned that you can get decent SOC frames if it's lit correctly.

This was shot in from a darkhall way and it was cloud/rainy outside



Joe shooting:


I forgot what WB he recommended, but it added the yellow sunlight tone. I think it was cloudy (???) -- need to check my notes.

Or, he'll shoot through a window (bunch of speedlights outside), and through a stolen bedsheet:


If you don't have the windows or space, the light on the stick works well.

For the most part, the idea is to turn a small light source, and make it big and soft.

divamum

You guys are brilliant. thumbthumb

Since I now have a large 5-in-1 reflector that includes a translucent panel, it's a no-brainer to set it up and fire through it on the same side as the window, which boosts everything just enough that I can SS up and ISO down. A small reflector under the chin or on the other side, and I'm good to go. I just tried it, and works beautifully - opens up LOADS of options regardless of how gloomy a day it is.

That reflector kit was clearly a better investment than expected it to be - yay!!!

aktse

divamum wrote:

Since I now have a large 5-in-1 reflector that includes a translucent panel, it's a no-brainer to set it up and fire through it on the same side as the window, which boosts everything just enough that I can SS up and ISO down.

1. V.A.L. holding a speedlight (to a powerpack) through a trigrip.


I tri-grips

If I see them on sale again, I'm picking another one.

2. Light through a 6x3. I don't own this, but want it.

Qarik

LiquidAir wrote:

Here is something to try: hang a scrim (like a white bed sheet) over those windows and the fire a couple of stobes at them from outside the house using a radio slave. The natural daylight will then act like a modelling light and the pop from the strobe will let you shoot at a more reasonable ISO.

There are a couple of interesting properties of indirect natural light. The first is that often they are quite large: the best way I have found to create very large sources is using scrims. The other property is that often natural light has very complex color because it bounces of a variety of surfaces so the shadows will have a diffent color than the highlights and often different parts of the highlight will take on subtlely different colors. Some of this you can reproduce by tinting your scrims but is will definitely take some experimentation to get the effect you want.

was just going to suggest this

sweet caroline

So here was my recent attempt at mimicking natural light. I placed my flash in a large umbrella with a diffuser and positioned in on the same side of the subject as the window. I simply did not have enough light coming through the window at that time of day to make the shot work without a boost from flash.

divamum

Test shot, SOOC. Nothing special as a photo (understatement ), but it shows the light setup in the catchlights.

Flash fired through translucent reflector used as scrim camera left, in front of the existing double windows (in other words, boosting the actual light). Small reflector camera right. I think it will work nicely!

divamum

sweet caroline wrote:

So here was my recent attempt at mimicking natural light. I placed my flash in a large umbrella with a diffuser and positioned in on the same side of the subject as the window. I simply did not have enough light coming through the window at that time of day to make the shot work without a boost from flash.

What a lovely shot, Caroline!

LiquidAir

divamum wrote:

You guys are brilliant. thumbthumb

Since I now have a large 5-in-1 reflector that includes a translucent panel, it's a no-brainer to set it up and fire through it on the same side as the window, which boosts everything just enough that I can SS up and ISO down. A small reflector under the chin or on the other side, and I'm good to go. I just tried it, and works beautifully - opens up LOADS of options regardless of how gloomy a day it is.

That reflector kit was clearly a better investment than expected it to be - yay!!!

I have a couple of the 5-in-1 reflectors and the are great. However when I want the Mitchell Open Garage Door Look (tm) they aren't big enough.

A few years ago I bought a cheap 10'x10' white muslin which turned out to wrinkle far too much to use as a backdrop so now I use it as a diffuser instead (with a paper backdrop). It works great.

divamum

Liquid Air, I can see what you mean on the size, but fortunately I'm only doing headshots, so I think it will work for that. It's pretty big, too - 45" which is a decent size until full body, I think.

Question for you all: while I understand that the light source is bigger+softer the closer it is, how far "should" the flash be from the diffuser it's shooting through for maximum wash effect? It seems to me if it's too close it will generate a hotspot, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Thoughts?

LiquidAir

divamum wrote:

Liquid Air, I can see what you mean on the size, but fortunately I'm only doing headshots, so I think it will work for that. It's pretty big, too - 45" which is a decent size until full body, I think.

Question for you all: while I understand that the light source is bigger+softer the closer it is, how far "should" the flash be from the diffuser it's shooting through for maximum wash effect? It seems to me if it's too close it will generate a hotspot, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Thoughts?

I usually take a picture of my diffuser (you'll need to stop down to not blow it out) to see how good the coverage is.

A good starting point is to zoom your strobe out to 28mm or 35mm and place it about as far from the diffuser as the diffuser is wide. So in your case you'll want to put the strobe about 45" from the diffuser. The frenel lenses in hotshoe strobes vary quite a bit so there you'll need to play around with it a bit to tune the setup to your strobe. One place where cheap strobes perform poorly is they tend to have a brighter hotspot with more falloff for an overall less even lighting pattern. When I need even light, I use my Canon strobes in preference to my cheap 3rd party knockoffs.

kidzmom

Wow this discussion has been great Diva! I am intrigued by this... I can see that this would be the perfect way of "replicating" natural light===or as close as you can get. Really great ideas here. THANKS! A lot of ideas to play with!

D'Buggs

Thought.

If you wanna soften it up even more and lose some of the 'hot', try double diffusing. The 1st diffuser will 'spray' light over a broader region of the second, making the net result 'more open'....Tis why softboxes (better ones) are "double diffused".

divamum

D'Buggs wrote:

Thought.

If you wanna soften it up even more and lose some of the 'hot', try double diffusing. The 1st diffuser will 'spray' light over a broader region of the second, making the net result 'more open'....Tis why softboxes (better ones) are "double diffused".

'Splain please, Lucy.

In my case, perhaps use a fong and then shoot through the diffuser? Only thing there might be batteries since it would probably mean bumping up FEC....

The first of these shoots is tomorrow and it is stormy and DARK even in the afternoon; the only possible help is going to be that the clocks go forward tomorrow so at least I'll have daylight for a little longer even if it isn't any *brighter*. I'm glad I thought to raise this question earlier in the week, because I can see for certain I'm going to need to help nature along!

D'Buggs

Da Fong should help, never tried it.

I was merely suggesting using a second scrim, perhaps a 3rd of the distance from the flash --> main diffuser (1st panel closer to source). And yes, you'd need to power up but seeing as you're shooting for thin dof, it *should* be very do-able.

Give it a try with a basketball (or???) on a table, both ways... See whatchya think.

Hackbone

Look where the fireman is standing in the fireman post. I realize they are using flash but when using window light most people place them in the middle of the window area. This creates harsh shadows. The best placement is toward the back edge of the window as in the fireman pose or a litte further back and the lighting gets soft and beautiful.

Scott_Quier

divamum wrote:

Liquid Air, I can see what you mean on the size, but fortunately I'm only doing headshots, so I think it will work for that. It's pretty big, too - 45" which is a decent size until full body, I think.

Question for you all: while I understand that the light source is bigger+softer the closer it is, how far "should" the flash be from the diffuser it's shooting through for maximum wash effect? It seems to me if it's too close it will generate a hotspot, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Thoughts?

There is another consideration: the closer your lightsource is to your subject, the faster will be the light fall-off. Moving your light source too close to your subject (no matter how it's modified) can easily result in 3 or more stops of light fall-off across the width of a model's face - producing in a photo with deep shadows on one side of the face and hot-spots on the other.

There are a couple (or more) approaches to solving this.

• Key light very close to the subject --> nice soft light, but rapid fall-off producing deep shadows. So add a second light (or reflector) for fill.
  
  
• With only a single light, move it further from the subject but use a much larger modifier (umbrella, screen, whatever) to make the light source look larger (from the perspective of the subject).

D'Buggs

So, Diva,,,,, Where ya able to pull out a rabbit???

divamum

D'Buggs wrote:

So, Diva,,,,, Where ya able to pull out a rabbit???

I'm working on it!!

This may be the DUMBEST assignement I've ever accepted. No, let me rephrase that: the assignment isn't dumb, but my acceptance of the terms offered was I did the first 6 yesterday afternoon. Really nice kids, but boy... I'm whupped. There are twenty in total - TWENTY!!... and all for a flat fee that is less than 10% of what I would normally charge for my not-expensive-to-begin-with "starving student special" pkg. Do(n't lecture me on undercharging... circumstances dictated the situation and I was kind of trapped on this one because it's for the college and I felt obliged... This will be my last time doing it for this price, however!!!!!)

In any case, I'm wading through yetserday's shoot. Lightingwise, great - very pleased with the lighting which wound up being a mixture of natural, reflected and fill flash with various modifiers, BUT some kind of weirdness going on with the AF means that about half the shots are tossers. I am SO FRUSTRATED!!!! (I think I cooked my own goose by messing with microfocus adjust and not doing a good enough job, DESPITE having - I thought - done enough test shots to be sure I was accurate. I think I may revert to "default settings for the next batch... Because I often shoot shallow DOF, it shows in some shots :cry )

In any case, blahblahblahramblebletherblah. I'm hoping to get a few of them posted later. I could use some fresh eyes, to be honest, since it was 4 lonnggg hours, and I've been looking at them onscreen ever since which =
Square-Eyed-Diva :oogle :uhoh

D'Buggs

DM2.

So, you're into a job for the "Love of It". No bigggie - It isn't the 1st and it won't be the last, I'm sure.


Step away from the Computron!!!
Come back to them tomorrow and let your *vision*, refocus.

aktse

Joe has a blog post perfect for you -- Making Window Light

It's pretty much one of his regular setup flash (3 speedlights in this case) through something to soften it (3x3 for this, bedsheet is another fave) to the subject.

ChatKat

Diva - you mentioned quality of natural light. The light outdoors in the southern states is much harsher than up north. The reason Hollywood was chosen for film is that we don't get snow or cold weather but our light is terrible from June-September and all year from 10am to 2pm.....

North anywhere is a much prettier light . It's farther from the equator.

As for a light source when you are looking for a daylight look indoors, the Westcott Spiderlights are beautiful. The bulbs are daylight balances, no flash component. I am using that for a dance school project I am doing and the light is magnificient! No flash popping either which is great for the eyes and the children.

divamum

ChatKat wrote:

Diva - you mentioned quality of natural light. The light outdoors in the southern states is much harsher than up north. The reason Hollywood was chosen for film is that we don't get snow or cold weather but our light is terrible from June-September and all year from 10am to 2pm.....

North anywhere is a much prettier light . It's farther from the equator.

As for a light source when you are looking for a daylight look indoors, the Westcott Spiderlights are beautiful. The bulbs are daylight balances, no flash component. I am using that for a dance school project I am doing and the light is magnificient! No flash popping either which is great for the eyes and the children.

Thanks Kat. Yes, I suppose you're right about the harshness - I guess I was thinking about *quantity* rather than quality, especially since Mitchell's Magic Garage makes use of that bright light indirectly and you have sunshine most of the year (it's been gloomy and very dark here in the east this cold, long winter).

Thanks for the tip on the Spiderlights, too. I managed nicely with a combo of window+reflector+occasional pop of fill for these shoots (image threads here and here), but great to know there are other options too. THank you!

kombizz

divamum wrote:

Test shot, SOOC. Nothing special as a photo (understatement ), but it shows the light setup in the catchlights.

Flash fired through translucent reflector used as scrim camera left, in front of the existing double windows (in other words, boosting the actual light). Small reflector camera right. I think it will work nicely!

Nice capture better than the first one