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CRT vs. LCD Monitor
hawaiiski
Registered Users Posts: 20 Big grins
I'm currently using an 8 yr. old Dell 17" CRT monitor. Should I upgrade to an LCD for photo editing? What would be the advantages of doing so, & is there an ideal size that photo editors recommend? Thanks.
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You might start here:
http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/s-ips-lcd-list.php
As for the size... get the biggest one you can afford
Well, you have limited choices. CRT computer monitors are no longer manufactured but can be found via online resellers or via eBay.
The world has transitioned to, for the most part, TFT LCD's for computer monitors.
Better quality LCD's are every bit the match for a better quality CRT. Don't expect a $200 24" LCD to equal the image quality of a 21" $1000 CRT last made 5 years ago.
Both 22" and 24" wide screen 16:10 ratio monitors are popular at the moment but there are also some good 22" or 23" 16:9 available or coming.
24" 1920x1200 16:10 resolution (native)
23" 1920x1080 16:9 resolution
22" 1680x1050 16:10 resolution is typical
(Edit) PS... some people prefer the 22" 1680x1050 resolution over the 24" 1920x1200 resolution as they find it easier to view the fonts. LCD's should only be viewed at their native resolution as at lower resolutions the image will be degraded due interpolation - edges won't be as sharp and sometimes there can be stair steps on curved edges. I'd think there would be color issues as well.
*** There are a couple of key points to buying a TFT LCD for image editing and viewing use. ***
Once you answer the question on the second point I'll provide a list of monitors to consider.
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1. Panel Panel Panel !!!
In terms of image quality for photo editing, these are the TFT LCD panel types from best to worst:
IPS (newer variants are S-IPS, AS-IPS, H-IPS, e-IPS, etc)
PVA (newer variants are S-PVA, c-PVA)
MVA (newer variants are A-MVA, P-MVA, S-MVA, etc)
TN
If you would like some background on these panels, read this article:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm
The current darling of the graphics and image editing crowd is the H-IPS panel. Very good viewing angles with little shift in gamma/color from one side of the monitor to the other or vertically - typically stated so that the angles add up to 178 degrees. They show a little more detail in dark areas than a S-PVA panel will but their blacks, historically, have not been quite as deep/dark as S-PVA panels.
S-PVA panels are also very popular with graphic artists and image editors with very good color rendition and viewing angles. These panels, although not currently as favoured as H-IPS panels, have been the mainstay of high end monitors from Eizo and Lacie for several years. Excellent blacks and so images appear to perhaps have better contrast but this is in part because they are known to "crush" the blacks when viewed straight on. When using a S-PVA panel monitor, if you move your head to the side a bit, you will see detail emerge from dark areas. With a properly calibrated monitor, this is not too big a deal and as alluded... if it was good enough for Eizo, it is probably good enough for most users.
MVA panels are somewhat similar to PVA panels in appearance but I suspect that the MVA production lines have closed down some time ago. I have not seen a new MVA panel monitor from a well known manufacturer is 2 or 3 years.
TN are the worst for image editing. Their biggest strength is that they are inexpensive and have been built so that they have a very fast screen refresh rate and low input lag so gamer children will get their parents to buy these. They have serious issues with color/gamma change at off angles. All current TN panel monitors on the market are 6bit (256,000 colors) and use electronic techniques to simulate an 8bit panel (16.7 million colors). You will see a number of current TN panels stating 16.7 million colors in their specs. Some state 16.2 million. Check the viewing angles and if they add up to 160 degrees horizontal, or 170 degrees with some newer models, then it is a TN panel monitor. Some larger TN's will, especially if you sit close, to have a band at the top and bottom almost as if you are viewing with those sunglasses that are mirrored top and bottom but not in the middle. Another way to check is look at the monitor from below - if the panel has the appearance of a film negative, then it is a TN.
The review sites I list below will, in more recent reviews, show screen shots at various angles - these will show you how TN's shift at off angles.
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2. What color space do you work in?
If you do any work with images in the AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB color spaces, then you should be looking for what is called a "wide gamut" monitor. These will offer a color gamut covering close to 100% of sRGB and 100% AdobeRGB.
If not, and you work in sRGB which is what is required for web sites and most commercial printers that you might have make up prints, then that's it, simply a monitor with a color gamut offering close to 100% of the sRGB color space.
For many people wide gamut monitors are problematic. You need to view images with "color managed" software or else the reds and greens will appear too vibrant. Photoshop CS3/4 is color managed. ACDSee Pro v3 is color managed. Internet Explorer v8 is not. Hence, viewing web images via IE8 will not be ideal as reds and greens will appear over saturated.
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Otherwise, you will no doubt come across specs like "refresh rate", "input lag", and "contrast ratio". Totally ignore the first two and with "contrast ratio" be skeptical of anything claiming 30,000:1 CR. It is always a dynamic contrast ratio which is usually only available in one viewing mode on the monitor. For image editing you'll be using a mode which supports a static contrast ratio which after calibration which likely not exceed 800:1. You'll see this to be true when you dig into the reviews on Prad.de or TFTCentral.
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Here's some good review sites:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php
A site for comparing various monitors -these link will show screen shots:
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=477&p1=4862&ma2=88&mo2=218&p2=2098&ph=8
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Here are pages that will help you find what panel is used in a monitor:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/panelsearch.htm
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/panels.php
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This is a good general thread to read on TFT LCD monitors - most people call it the "Anand LCD Thread":
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226
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I strongly suggest that if possible, you also acquire a hardware colorimeter to calibrate your monitor. Almost all monitors are not well calibrated per factory default and over time they do drift off spec - especially with brightness. For print matching and avoiding dark prints from edited images, getting the brightness right is a key point.
I usually suggest:
Colorvision Spyder3 Elite
Xrite i1 Display2
Both of these offer the ability to measure and set brightness to a specific value in addition to setting gamma, temperature, and RGB. Lesser models do not offer measured brightness and fewer options for the other variables.
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http://nikonic1.smugmug.com/
If your CRT can still hit your calibration target values, you can keep using it. If not, then a new good LCD will be an upgrade. To add to the info above, here is a continuously updated buying guide to all IPS monitors.
http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/s-ips-lcd-list.php
I use Elements 8 for simple editing & uploading to my site, so that would be sRGB, correct?
I have yet to calibrate my monitor...still trying to decide which calibrater to purchase. After ordering some test prints from my own site, I was disappointed at how much darker they were than what I was viewing on my monitor. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to correct this.
Thanks for all the links. I'll check them out when I get a chance.
http://www.spectacular-skies.com/
That usually happens when a monitor brightness is set too high. Monitors are shipped at a very high crowd-pleasing brightness level, a brightness that paper won't ever match unless paper starts emitting its own light. This is even worse with LCDs because LCDs can be brighter than CRTs. One benefit of a calibrator is it helps you set a monitor to a reasonable brightness value for print matching, and that value is a lot lower than most people think.
Dark prints! :eek1
As colorbox stated, usually that results from editing images and adjusting levels by eye where your monitor is too bright for the room you edit in. Something that is not as common with CRT's unless you edit in a pitch black room. It can also result from using the wrong ICC paper profile for your printer. Example: using a matte profile when printing on high gloss paper. But you have said you ordered these prints from your site (Smugmug?).
Here's a quick synopsis of the monitor brightness issue.
Most LCD users using a colorimeter will calibrate RGB to the sRGB standard, with 2.2 Gamma, 6500K Temperature, and a White Luminance of 120 cd/m2. The white luminance is the means by which you measure and control brightness.
There is no one "right" white luminance value - it is a function of the ambient light in the room in which you edit. You're balancing the light from the backlit monitor with the reflective ambient light of the room against the perceptual bias of the human eye.
If the monitor is too bright for the room, your eye will be tricked into lowering the levels (brightness) of the image to make it look right. Prints will be dark.
A monitor calibrated to 120 cd/m2 might be the right brightness level for a small den with a single 60w bulb reflecting off its' neutral white ceiling.
However, with the light turned off it will be too bright and white luminance may have to be reduced to 90 cd/m2.
In a commercial office where light levels have to meet workers health & safety regulations, 120 cd/m2 may not be bright enough. The best white luminance value may be as high as 140 to 160 cd/m2.
The two colorimeters I mention at the end of my last post both offer ambient light sensors that when used with the their software will suggest a white luminance value and temperature to use for calibration. Even with this, the only true test for dark prints is to print an edited image. If you print a well exposed image fresh from a camera (unedited) and it comes out dark, you know your problem likely lies somewhere in the printing software.
Most LCD's come from from the factory with brightness in excess of 250 cd/m2, some as high as 400 cd/m2. Some models are very difficult to reduce brightness down below 120 cd/m2 without skewing the monitors internal RGB settings far from optimal (can cause banding or unwanted tint). As an option you can increase the brightness of the room when you cannot bring the monitor's brightness down far enough.
You haven't mentioned a $$ budget or a preference for 24" over 22". Any info on this you can share?
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I don't want to spend much more than $300 for a monitor. I don't have much of a size preference.
I guess I'll order one of the calibraters you recommended & see what I can do w/ my CRT.
Thanks again for all the info.
http://www.spectacular-skies.com/
OK.... now we're getting to where I can suggest a monitor. $300 is pretty much the bottom end for a decent LCD monitor with either an IPS or PVA type TFT panel. But there are some good products there that are very usable. In particular, the Dell 2209WA has been getting rave reviews the past year. It is probably the best bang for the buck monitor out there for image editing and viewing.
The following are strictly sRGB monitors (except the last as noted) and none have a TN panel.
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Dell 2209WA
..... ~ $309 USD MSRP (usually discounted every 2 or 3 months)
..... was $50 off on Dell USA website earlier this week
..... recently available for $208 CAD from Dell Canada
..... some users report calling Dell CSR can get $220 USD.
..... e-IPS panel
..... 22 inch
..... 1680x1050
..... true 8bit screen
..... 100% sRGB color space
..... don't confuse this with other Dell monitors, i.e. the S2209W
..... http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=2209WA3
..... http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-dell-2209wa.html
..... http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1248173915
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NEC EA231WMi
..... ~ $379 USD MSRP @ NEC ($319 on Buy.com recently)
..... eH-IPS panel (per NEC, same tech as the Dell 2209WA panel I believe)
..... 23 inch
..... 1920x1080
..... true 8bit screen
..... 100% sRGB color space
..... note that some reviews and user comments point out possible brightness uniformity issues from the backlight
..... http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-nec-ea231wmi-bk.html
..... http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_ea231wmi.htm
..... http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1265977876
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HP ZR22w
..... now available for order; no reviews as yet
..... List $289 USD (this is the first day pricing has been on HP web site)
..... probably replaces LP2275w
..... IPS type panel
..... 22 inch
..... 1920x1080
..... true 8bit screen
..... 96% sRGB
..... http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-3884471-4101127.html
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And this next monitor is a wide gamut model but as it is probably being discontinued, you may find some hot pricing on it soon:
HP LP2275w
..... ~ $346 USD @Buy.com (maybe discontinued soon)
..... S-PVA panel
..... 22 inch
..... 1680x1050
..... true 8bit screen
..... 95% sRGB, 91% AdobeRGB (wide gamut)
..... some reports of banding or lines on screen
..... http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-hp-lp2275w.html
..... http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/hp_lp2275w.htm
..... http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1234870190
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Also check Amazon.com for deals on both the monitors and the colorimeters. B&H has both brands/models of colorimeters for around $200 ea.
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http://www.spectacular-skies.com/
And timely too.
I am about to build a new system. One of the components I am GOING to buy is a new Monitor. From what little I know and what (much) I had read, I thought I ought to plan on spending about 12 or $1300.00 for a LaCie.
Am I wrong on this? Yes, my budget is allowing for it. Will I truly gain anything buy going in this direction versus going with some of your suggestions?
My Needs:
1. I want to be able to edit my photos and be assured as I can be, that I am on target. And of course, when enjoying making purely aesthetic changes, I want to know that my changes render as desired.
2. I'd like a Monitor that has Longevity: ~10 years.
I'd most assuredly rather spend the $change on something a bit more fun, but felt it prudent to make a wise purchase in this realm.
All help well appreciated in advance. I will go and read the reviews you posted, but would rather hear from folks with experience, thanks~
Do you need wide gamut?
With a $1200-1300 budget, you might want to consider this monitor...
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_pa241w.htm
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362474,00.asp
lol.... 10 years? no guarantees on that one.
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I don't know, but I "think" I do based on being able to visually differentiate color depth!??
Great links...thanks so much!
...yeah, right!
Do you shoot with your DSLR set to the AdobeRGB mode or extract images in the AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB color space from RAW files?
If you do, then you need a wide gamut monitor.
If you don't then perhaps you can save $700 and get a nice 24" sRGB only monitor (the HP ZR24W) that may suffice.
You could always get a wide gamut monitor but to get the most out of it requires you use a full suite of color managed software on your desktop. Very few programs are color managed. Viewing images with non-color managed software is not a pretty sight. Reds and greens in particular are overly vibrant, appearing too saturated.
A lot of people struggle with the wide gamut issue.
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Yes. Exactly! All of my cameras are set to AdobeRGB, I transfer RAW files into LR2 then work from there all in color managed space.
Thanks for the simple down to earth info! It is so easy to get lost in the marketing hyperbole, and hard to discern someones bias~
cheers,
OK...
You should then be considering one of these:
Dell U2410 ~ $450 to $600 USD
- 24" 16:10 1920x1200 H-IPS TFT panel
- about 100% sRGB and AdobeRGB color space coverage
- there have been issues with green on left and red on right tints showing on white or gray backgrounds; dithering in sRGB mode in the first gen firmware, and a couple of other points. I've read a number of posts on various sites of buyers going through 3 units before finding one that is acceptable. Dell will not permit returns of this monitor for the "tint" issue calling this a normal screen characteristic. You can return for bad pixels though which a lot of these users find on them oddly enough (nudge nudge wink wink). I've also read of a number of users finding their first and only unit entirely acceptable.
HP LP2475W ~ $500 - 600
- 24" 16:10 1920x1200 H-IPS TFT panel
- about 100% sRGB and AdobeRGB color space coverage
- there have been issues with green on left and red on right tints (uses a LG supplied panel very similar to the U2410)
NEC PA241w ~ $1079 MSRP
- 24" 16:10 1920x1200 p-IPS TFT panel
- about 100% sRGB and AdobeRGB color space coverage
- new advanced 3D LUT
- internal addressable LUT to hold calibration profile
- companion colorimeter and SpectraView software will be available soon for about $200 to calibrate and write to internal LUT; can also be calibrated with standard Xrite i1 Display2 or Colorvision Spyder3 system but these cannot write to the internal LUT.
Dell U2711 ~ $1099 MSRP
- 27" 16:9 2560x1440 H-IPS TFT panel
- about 100% sRGB and AdobeRGB color space coverage
NEC PA271w
- coming soon; pricing?? maybe ~ $1400-1500
- 27" 16:9 2560x1440 p-IPS TFT panel
- like the Dell U2711 but with the features of the PA241w
From this point on in terms of $$$ you'd be looking at Eizo or Lacie units. I suspect you will find that 24" and larger units from them outside of your budget - I believe in most cases they come with a colorimeter/software bundle which somewhat justifies their higher price.
FYI... Eizo, as part of its' quality control, tests their panels at 25 points. Not sure about Lacie. In contrast, Dell tests its' panels at one point - dead center of the panel.
Lookup these panels at the review sites I provided a couple of posts back.
You will require a good quality colorimeter to calibrate the monitors periodically - allow about $200 for one of these units:
Xrite i1 Display2 (aka EyeOne D2, i1D2)
Colorvision Spyder 3 Elite
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Thanks again for the super info and links~
ps: I've had a Spyder pro for about three years. But when I am through calibrating a POS, I still have a POS!
Three years? So that would be a Spyder1 or a Spyder2 but not the Spyder3.
You'll need to upgrade to a Spyder3 or the Xrite i1 Display2 if you buy a wide gamut monitor. That NEC also has its' own colorimeter available. I suggest the Spyder3 Elite and the i1D2 as these models have a full feature set and in particular their software allows for measuring and calibrating to a specific custom white luminance value which is the method by which you control your monitor's brightness. You will need to ensure your brightness is balanced against the ambient lighting of the space you edit in, in order to avoid dark prints.
The pucks on the Spyder2's and earlier are not "tuned" for wide gamut monitors and will cause you much grief if you try to use them with your new wide gamut acquisition.
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I'll do as you suggested simply because i have not been too happy with this Sypder 2,but it does do white luminence, and ambient measurement. In truth it is more probably just this POS I've been editing on. I'll look into which one would better suit. I did notice some of the Lacie eq came with their recommend piece, and I like the idea of a dedicated color measuring tool Specific for the Monitor. But, I also would at least like to be able to use it on other later acquisitions, should I desire to go with two monitors, etc.
Thats too bad hearing about the factory cal jobs on the Dells. makes me wonder, Why offer it~
Sometime in the next week or two, I'll round up all my info from folks like you and make a 'hopefully' better informed decision about all of this. These kind of expenditures, while necessary, represent a good chuck of change, so I'd rather get a piece that'll serve me well. And one I will enjoy working with~
Thanks~
Where do you look to see if the monitor is TN or IPS? I am looking at the specifications screen of a bestbuy page and I dont see any mention of this, but perhaps I am over looking it.
Well, it's nothing that you're doing wrong. It's very rare for a store, especially a big-box store, to list the panel type. Even manufacturers don't often tell you in their own spec sheets. Apple flogs it now (the iPad has IPS, which is remarkable), but they're the exception.
You more or less have to find a good list of IPS monitors and then shop for something on the list. This link was posted earlier in this thread:
http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/s-ips-lcd-list.php