Grappler's Quest

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

Shot a friend's matches at Grappler's Quest this past weekend. Also shot the superfight tournament they had there. Here are some shots...

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You can find the full series here.

johng · March 25, 2010

Hey Rick,
Interesting stuff. Don't think I've seen strait grappling for adults before - Judo, yes. MMA, yes. Considering there are arm bars and such are they using rules similar to judo? Anyway, on to the photos. Again, my critique is a little harder because I see you're running a professional site and selling these for profit.

shot 1: Nice action but way too much dead space and too much blur in the face of the primary subject. You need to be able to crop down and be able to see the face. If the photo can't survive the crop it probably shouldn't survive the digital trash bin.

shot 2: the legs to the right are a huge distraction. no need for them to be there. Get rid of them. Otherwise, not peak action but still decent - something interesting is going on.

shot 3: while it's a nice arm bar, there's nothing compelling about the photo - no faces. Just as with amateur wrestling you need faces. Sure you can't switch positions a lot but that also means you can't photograph everything that happens and come away with a winner. Also the action is the arm bar and the faces - not the lower half of the guy in the bar. Even with a better angle you want tighter on the bar and faces.

shot 4: nothing compelling here at all. You've got the back of the dominant wrestler and the half guard isn't that compelling from this angle.

shot 5: again not much compelling. The ref is a distraction as is the camera guy and the framing is a bit off. He's starting a move but right now it's just not good action.

shot 6: you've got a face filling a good portion of the frame and that's good. But the image doesn't work. First from a business standpoint the guy on the bottom certainly isn't going to buy it and the guy on the top is unrecognizable. The foot is distracting. But overall, even though you can capture a face there's just nothing compelling going on here.

shot 7: photog in the background is a huge distraction. I think this shot has potential since that's very unorthodox approach on the mat. But there's still no action. And from a sales standpoint no reason for either participant to be interested in the shot.

shot 8: Now we've got somewhat nice action here. That's good. But you have too much motion blur. You need faster shutter speeds or need to be using flash if allowed. Again, the photog in the background is destroying the sale potential of this shot. That is absolutely something if you want to be a pro you need to discuss with that guy. He needs to be sitting down

shot 9: most compelling shot so far. Crop it tighter so you crop out more of the crowd and some space to the left.

shot 10: framing doesn't work. First it's a bit crooked. Since this is from the back, both competitors and the ref just aren't interesting. The only interesting part is the tattoos and the arm being raised. That needs to be the subject of the photo. The rest of the ref and the other wrestler are irrelevant.

shot 11: I like the concept. But way too much uninteresting dead space in the frame. The background is too much of a distraction.

that's all I have time for - sorry. You've got exposures pretty good and focus is pretty good and WB is decent. But most still aren't compelling images, much less saleable - at least if I was one of the competitors I couldn't see spending the money on them. You have to understnd your customer. If you're working for media you want compelling action which most here don't have. If you want to sell to participants you want them in a very positive light and recognizable (not blurred or not from the back). So I think you understand your equipment well - with the exception of too much motion blur when you do have action. People don't want to buy a shot with their face blurry. You just need to work on making compelling images. Keep at it. Sports shooting is more difficult than it looks. And a sport like this can be difficult to get compelling images because of your position or just what action takes place.

Macushla · March 25, 2010

Hey Rick - The color is really nice and the white balance looks good. (that is something I'm continually struggling with). I've never seen this sport before, those guys are huge! #7 is my favorite he looks like he's meditating. Can you share your equipment and settings?

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

johng wrote:

Hey Rick,
Interesting stuff. Don't think I've seen strait grappling for adults before - Judo, yes. MMA, yes. Considering there are arm bars and such are they using rules similar to judo? Anyway, on to the photos. Again, my critique is a little harder because I see you're running a professional site and selling these for profit.

shot 1: Nice action but way too much dead space and too much blur in the face of the primary subject. You need to be able to crop down and be able to see the face. If the photo can't survive the crop it probably shouldn't survive the digital trash bin.

shot 2: the legs to the right are a huge distraction. no need for them to be there. Get rid of them. Otherwise, not peak action but still decent - something interesting is going on.

shot 3: while it's a nice arm bar, there's nothing compelling about the photo - no faces. Just as with amateur wrestling you need faces. Sure you can't switch positions a lot but that also means you can't photograph everything that happens and come away with a winner. Also the action is the arm bar and the faces - not the lower half of the guy in the bar. Even with a better angle you want tighter on the bar and faces.

shot 4: nothing compelling here at all. You've got the back of the dominant wrestler and the half guard isn't that compelling from this angle.

shot 5: again not much compelling. The ref is a distraction as is the camera guy and the framing is a bit off. He's starting a move but right now it's just not good action.

shot 6: you've got a face filling a good portion of the frame and that's good. But the image doesn't work. First from a business standpoint the guy on the bottom certainly isn't going to buy it and the guy on the top is unrecognizable. The foot is distracting. But overall, even though you can capture a face there's just nothing compelling going on here.

shot 7: photog in the background is a huge distraction. I think this shot has potential since that's very unorthodox approach on the mat. But there's still no action. And from a sales standpoint no reason for either participant to be interested in the shot.

shot 8: Now we've got somewhat nice action here. That's good. But you have too much motion blur. You need faster shutter speeds or need to be using flash if allowed. Again, the photog in the background is destroying the sale potential of this shot. That is absolutely something if you want to be a pro you need to discuss with that guy. He needs to be sitting down

shot 9: most compelling shot so far. Crop it tighter so you crop out more of the crowd and some space to the left.

shot 10: framing doesn't work. First it's a bit crooked. Since this is from the back, both competitors and the ref just aren't interesting. The only interesting part is the tattoos and the arm being raised. That needs to be the subject of the photo. The rest of the ref and the other wrestler are irrelevant.

shot 11: I like the concept. But way too much uninteresting dead space in the frame. The background is too much of a distraction.

that's all I have time for - sorry. You've got exposures pretty good and focus is pretty good and WB is decent. But most still aren't compelling images, much less saleable - at least if I was one of the competitors I couldn't see spending the money on them. You have to understnd your customer. If you're working for media you want compelling action which most here don't have. If you want to sell to participants you want them in a very positive light and recognizable (not blurred or not from the back). So I think you understand your equipment well - with the exception of too much motion blur when you do have action. People don't want to buy a shot with their face blurry. You just need to work on making compelling images. Keep at it. Sports shooting is more difficult than it looks. And a sport like this can be difficult to get compelling images because of your position or just what action takes place.

Awesome critique! Just what I'm looking for! Thank you so much! Just starting out so I'm open to ALL suggestions!!!

Oh, yes, there are LOTS of these types of tournaments. I actually compete but I have a bum shoulder right now.

I did shoot flash, however, I'm just learning and it seems I had my shutter speed too low and the ambient light was affecting my shots too much. Flash photography has been very confusing to me but I'm trying to learn.

My cropping has always been something I'm not confident in. I seem to not know when to crop tight and when to leave space.

Again, thank you sooooo much for the comments. They are extremely helpful to me.

Oh, one thing, that photog in some of the photos, he's their, "official," photog. How many shots did you see him taking a picture in? I have a LOT more photos with him standing there holding his camera, too. I've seen his work and, even with the problems I still have, I'm already better than him. I'm trying to get better and will go to them and try and work my way in, "officially," if you know what I mean. Just not there yet (as you see).

Thanks again.

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

Macushla wrote:

Hey Rick - The color is really nice and the white balance looks good. (that is something I'm continually struggling with). I've never seen this sport before, those guys are huge! #7 is my favorite he looks like he's meditating. Can you share your equipment and settings?

Thanks. I've been practicing on wrestling while my son was wrestling. So my WB has gotten MUCH better. The lighting in there was also quite good (for a gym), which helped.

I shoot with a Canon 50D. Used a Canon 28-70mm f2.8 L (at f2.8) and a 580 EX II flash (diffused). ISO ranged from 300-500 and shutter speed was 1/60 (my motion blur problem).

The guy with the belt is my friend. He's a heavyweight. I compete at super heavyweight and we make those guys look small.

It's very different than wrestling. Not always as explosive as wrestling but it can be at times. Even more about thinking through situations than wrestling.

johng · March 25, 2010

GadgetRick wrote:

I seem to not know when to crop tight and when to leave space.
.

OK, that's not too difficult ON THE MAT - frame TIGHT ALWAYS. Frame tight then crop tighter. Sports action photography isn't like landscape type work. you want the action to fill the frame. In 95% of the shots the background will add nothing to the shot. The other 5% you're intentionally including the background because there's something specific which adds context. The best example of this is a shot recently I saw from Ohio Div I wrestling finals - kid won state title and was yelling - great shot - but even better because it was a bit wider and you saw the coach yelling with arms up in the background.

When they're on the mat, think about what is actually interesting - and zero in on that. A lot of the time legs aren't.

Now, when you're shooting for print sales you want photos where the subject is visible. The other guy in pain is a nice bonus but not good enough. Now, if you were doing newspaper work then one guy in pain could be good - it's still a story. So, at the start of a match get close ups of the individuals - right in on the faces to show intensity. That's a safety shot. After that you want shots that are showing the face of your subject doing something interesting. For this, don't be afraid to stand up. Unlike normal wrestling, if someone has another in an arm-bar for instance, getting up a little bit so you can see the face is a good thing. Traditional wrestling you're not going to have 2 faces pointing up very often.

So, work on your technique on the mat, getting the face of your subject with your subject shown in a positive light and shoot tight on the action. The good thing is - with wrestling and grappling there's time. You're usually waiting on the action and then you have a couple seconds.

It's much more difficult to capture throws. That's difficult because you want things tight enough to show detail but when bodies change position you don't want to crop off body parts. Tough.

A 70-200 2.8 should be your lens of choice so you can get in tight and show faces.

And by the way - not surprising that you can do better than "the pro". Lots of people have cameras. The challenge is - event photography is tough business. It's tough to make a decent profit. Got multiple mats going you need multiple shooters. Then it's a matter of return on investment. Bottom line is - even when a person has the skills to be good it doesn't mean there's enough money to be made to make it worth while. so lots of shooters come and go.

I'm not trying to discourage you - just stating why we so often see poor 'pros' working events. People love to look at photos, having them BUY photos in sufficient amounts to make it worth your while is another matter entirely.

Case in point, one of the team moms for the local HS called me a couple months back and wanted to know if I wanted to be the official photog for their wrestling invitational. Basically no up front money, just advertising. My money would be made off print sales. Long story shorter I declined because I didn't want to hire and be on the hook for all the shooters I'd need (12 mats I think). I talked to her about shooting just the kids in that school at districts or duals - whatever. Just get shots for them to buy - she wasn't interested. My point is: they wanted a photographer just so the event had one - BUT they themselves didn't value photos enough to want me shooting only them for a given tournament. Which was my experience from the past with that school. That's not saying every place is like that. Just saying that sometimes there just isn't a market enough to support photography business. Spending all weekend (plus the editing time)to make $200-300 profit isn't worth it. Not after a while.

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

johng wrote:

OK, that's not too difficult ON THE MAT - frame TIGHT ALWAYS. Frame tight then crop tighter. Sports action photography isn't like landscape type work. you want the action to fill the frame. In 95% of the shots the background will add nothing to the shot. The other 5% you're intentionally including the background because there's something specific which adds context. The best example of this is a shot recently I saw from Ohio Div I wrestling finals - kid won state title and was yelling - great shot - but even better because it was a bit wider and you saw the coach yelling with arms up in the background.

When they're on the mat, think about what is actually interesting - and zero in on that. A lot of the time legs aren't.

Now, when you're shooting for print sales you want photos where the subject is visible. The other guy in pain is a nice bonus but not good enough. Now, if you were doing newspaper work then one guy in pain could be good - it's still a story. So, at the start of a match get close ups of the individuals - right in on the faces to show intensity. That's a safety shot. After that you want shots that are showing the face of your subject doing something interesting. For this, don't be afraid to stand up. Unlike normal wrestling, if someone has another in an arm-bar for instance, getting up a little bit so you can see the face is a good thing. Traditional wrestling you're not going to have 2 faces pointing up very often.

So, work on your technique on the mat, getting the face of your subject with your subject shown in a positive light and shoot tight on the action. The good thing is - with wrestling and grappling there's time. You're usually waiting on the action and then you have a couple seconds.

It's much more difficult to capture throws. That's difficult because you want things tight enough to show detail but when bodies change position you don't want to crop off body parts. Tough.

A 70-200 2.8 should be your lens of choice so you can get in tight and show faces.

And by the way - not surprising that you can do better than "the pro". Lots of people have cameras. The challenge is - event photography is tough business. It's tough to make a decent profit. Got multiple mats going you need multiple shooters. Then it's a matter of return on investment. Bottom line is - even when a person has the skills to be good it doesn't mean there's enough money to be made to make it worth while. so lots of shooters come and go.

I'm not trying to discourage you - just stating why we so often see poor 'pros' working events. People love to look at photos, having them BUY photos in sufficient amounts to make it worth your while is another matter entirely.

Case in point, one of the team moms for the local HS called me a couple months back and wanted to know if I wanted to be the official photog for their wrestling invitational. Basically no up front money, just advertising. My money would be made off print sales. Long story shorter I declined because I didn't want to hire and be on the hook for all the shooters I'd need (12 mats I think). I talked to her about shooting just the kids in that school at districts or duals - whatever. Just get shots for them to buy - she wasn't interested. My point is: they wanted a photographer just so the event had one - BUT they themselves didn't value photos enough to want me shooting only them for a given tournament. Which was my experience from the past with that school. That's not saying every place is like that. Just saying that sometimes there just isn't a market enough to support photography business. Spending all weekend (plus the editing time)to make $200-300 profit isn't worth it. Not after a while.

I am absorbing everything you're writing like a sponge. Again, thank you so much. I haven't found others who are as interested in sports photos as I am. I have learned it's a tough gig so I've been branching into other areas. Luckily, photography doesn't have to pay the bills...at least not yet.

A 70-200 f2.8 is the next lens I plan to buy. I opted for the 28-70 f2.8 (just got it about a month ago) because I can use it for other things as well. Just didn't have the money for both at once. Hoping to have the money for the 70-200 in the next month or so.

I will be going back through all of the shots I took keeping everything you'd said in mind. I wasn't really shooting this one expecting to earn anything, I was doing it more for experience/practice than anything. If I sold a photo or two it would be a bonus. however, you're right in the amount of time it takes to go through everything. I've also read the same things you said about your experience as the, "official," photographer. So I don't have any delusions of grandeur. Honestly, I don't expect to get rich doing anything like that. So I guess I won't be disappointed when it doesn't happen. I enjoy sports and I enjoy taking pictures. Would be nice to make a few bucks if I can but it's not a requirement...at least not yet.

Again, I really appreciate the insight and suggestions you've given me. I realize you don't have to take the time to explain these things but I'm sure glad you did.

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

John:

I hate to bother you again as you've already spent so much time giving me suggestions and great advice but I have a question. This is regarding using flash. I was shooting at 1/60th and I believe I got blur because of the ambient light relative to my shutter speed. I'm guessing I need to increase the shutter speed to freeze the action better (although not the same as non-flash obviously as 1/250th is the fastest I can go.). Do I need to shoot at 1/250th or should I be able to shoot at a different speed? I was shooting f2.8 so I'd have to either lower my ISO (an option as I was at 300-500) and/or tune the flash down (I was at 1/8th diffused already). I know this seems like an elementary question but I'm really trying hard to learn flash photography for situations like this where the light is not quite good enough unless I bump my ISO way high.

I just want to be sure I understand action flash photography. I know, without flash, I won't be freezing action at 1/250th much of the time but, with flash, I should be able to freeze the action with the flash--at least that's how I'm understanding it. Am I way off on this?

Oh, btw, I made the changes you suggested as well as trimming the gallery WAY down taking your suggestions into mind. Thanks again! I've been working hard to get better. Criticism like this really helps.

johng · March 25, 2010

Rick the short answer to using flash to stop action is you want the camera's exposure to be about 2 stops below ambient. You can adjust ISO, aperture or shutter however you like but get your camera about 2 stops below ambient. Then the flash should freeze the action better.

GadgetRick · March 25, 2010

johng wrote:

Rick the short answer to using flash to stop action is you want the camera's exposure to be about 2 stops below ambient. You can adjust ISO, aperture or shutter however you like but get your camera about 2 stops below ambient. Then the flash should freeze the action better.

Ahhhh.... Ok, that makes sense now! I'll give that a shot the next time I'm shooting an event like this.

Thanks!

Grappler's Quest

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