CFL bulbs

fredjclaus

I see at my local camera store that they are selling Daylight Balanced CFL bulbs. I have two questions about these bulbs. 1) what white balance would you use? CF, or Daylight? 2) the color temps are all different on these bulbs. What temp should they be for true daylight balance? Would it be 6400 or something higher? Does it matter if they are only 5800 or 6000?

jnsuffolk

I believe 6500k is daylight

jnsuffolk

oh by the way you can get them at home depot. Probably alot cheaper

colourbox

fredjclaus wrote:

I see at my local camera store that they are selling Daylight Balanced CFL bulbs. I have two questions about these bulbs. 1) what white balance would you use? CF, or Daylight? 2) the color temps are all different on these bulbs. What temp should they be for true daylight balance? Would it be 6400 or something higher? Does it matter if they are only 5800 or 6000?

Sounds like a trick question. Light bulbs come in so many different temperatures now, even just within fluorescents themselves, and who knows how closely actual units match what the label says, and all bets are off if someone installed a mix of bulbs in a single room. It seems like the right thing to do is point the camera at a piece of white paper and set a custom white balance so that whatever the color temp of the specific unit is, the camera will figure it out. Then tweak it up or down a little whether you want warmer or cooler.

fredjclaus

I did see them at Home Depot but I didn't realize they were the same thing. The ones at the camera store were some photographic named company. I guess you learn something new each day. Thanks for the tip.

gramps50

The ones I use came from Lowes and what I did was then use a custom WB by placing a white card in the tent and keying off it.

One tip: Let them warm up before setting the WB or using them. depending on the temp it will take a few minutes fro them to come up to full lumince.

Gramps

ziggy53

Daylight balanced compact fluorescent are OK now for objects that don't require tight color balance, but I don't think they are quite ready for most portraiture or other applications which require more subtle and accurate tonality. The reason is that inexpensive daylight balanced compact fluorescent phosphors are still not a complete continuous spectra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lights#Phosphors_and_the_spectrum_of_emitted_light

Compare this to a true daylight spectra:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#Life_on_Earth

For some product lighting I have used compact fluorescent bulbs with a fairly high CRI (Color Rendering Index) rating (CRI 95 or better). The color isn't perfect but for subjects that don't need perfect color it can work pretty well.

Here's an example:

http://dgrin.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24548&d=1217963525

njg

Maybe I can help

fredjclaus wrote:

I see at my local camera store that they are selling Daylight Balanced CFL bulbs. I have two questions about these bulbs. 1) what white balance would you use? CF, or Daylight? 2) the color temps are all different on these bulbs. What temp should they be for true daylight balance? Would it be 6400 or something higher? Does it matter if they are only 5800 or 6000?

In my day job, I often replace up to 100 light bulbs/tubes per week. If the CFL light bulbs or fluorescent tubes just say "Daylight" or "Daylight Ballanced", you can't trust their colour -> they may range from 4100K to 6500K. 4100K is also refered to as 'warm white' while the bulbs labeled 6100K or 6500K are called 'cool white'. If you want the CFL light to mimick a bright overcast daylight ( or match your Speedlight ) be sure the box specifically states 5000k or 5500K. Your home reno store will often carry CFLs up to about 26 watts ( equivalent to about 150 watt incandescent ); commercial lighting suppliers can order CFLs up to about 150 watts ( about 600 - 750 watts incadescent ) althought these monsters have the larger (mogul) base. I hope this helps.

fredjclaus

Color is important. I've been asked to photograph some products for a lady who owns a T-shirt business. What type of lighting should I use if I have to photograph them indoors? I was looking to use CFL bulbs with Acytate screens to shoot through.

Also has anyone attempted to photograph products outside in bright sunlight? What sort of setting do you use?

Wil Davis

I use CFL bulbs with my light tent. They're "daylight" bulbs and the colour temp is 5500 K.

You've been given some good tips on setting WB already, but if you're taking pics of T-shirts, you might like to be reminded that modern detergents often contain "whitening" agents which make the whites look "whiter than white" (in other words more blue than red) and this might need to be taken into consideration (FWIW)

HTH -

- Wil

ziggy53

Electronic flash tends to be best for consistent, accurate color. A flash tube that has a UV coating and daylight color balance can be extremely color accurate.

You should also color calibrate your system and, ideally, use color calibration targets and color sampling in the image processing cycle. Correcting "by the numbers", instead of relying on visual color cues from the monitor, will get you much better results than any other method.

Ultimately, when you can photograph the color calibration target and can reproduce the image of the target accurately in print, you will have achieved your goal.

You can purchase entire color management systems if needed, but they tend to be costly.

You can often find a color management professional at a commercial printing company and it might be worthwhile to hire them for some basic assessments and recommendations.

Don Kondra

That's good advice Ziggy but I doubt anybody considering CF bulbs is willing to spend what it would take to do it your way

And to be clear, the Home Depot lights Are Not Photo bulbs.

When I was shooting continuous I used bulbs from Alzo Digital. They are designed for photo use @ 5500k and come in sizes up to 85w/equivalent to 300w tungsten.

http://alzodigital.com/online_store/replacement_lamps.htm

Cheers, Don

ziggy53

fredjclaus wrote:

... Also has anyone attempted to photograph products outside in bright sunlight? What sort of setting do you use?

The concept of shooting products outdoors is not so much a matter of a simple camera setting but things like:

1) Controlling the light. In direct sunlight highlights and shadows are going to be both hard and harsh. Contrast and dynamic range are probably going to exceed the dynamic range of any imager/camera. Diffusion and indirect lighting are important methodologies that need to be employed, but they are complicated by the sun's movement.

2) White balance and color temperature. Shooting outdoors you are subject to clouds that might move in front of the sun, clouds that act as sky based reflectors, ambient reflectors like grass and buildings which may contribute colored light, and the very movement of the sun which will change from mid-day to the morning and evening hours.

3) Unpredictability. The outdoor weather, including wind and rain as well as the way sunlight and weather interact, all contribute to make outdoor shooting a challenge for product sessions. Some products need to be shot outdoors and even "in use" in an outdoor setting, but outdoor sets always complicate rather than simplify.

4) Security. If you deal with product that needs security considerations, or product that needs privacy considerations, indoors affords better control than outdoors.

All of the above elements, and more, are valid reasons why indoor shoots are generally desirable for product photography.

gramps50

ziggy53 wrote:

Daylight balanced compact fluorescent are OK now for objects that don't require tight color balance, but I don't think they are quite ready for most portraiture or other applications which require more subtle and accurate tonality. The reason is that inexpensive daylight balanced compact fluorescent phosphors are still not a complete continuous spectra.

I am taking pics of auto parts so if I get the WB okay they my parts look fine and sometimes better than in real life which is not good. I shoot them in a homemade tent with a sheet over it for a filter and 3 CLFs top and each side.

ziggy53

gramps50 wrote:

I am taking pics of auto parts so if I get the WB okay they my parts look fine and sometimes better than in real life which is not good. I shoot them in a homemade tent with a sheet over it for a filter and 3 CLFs top and each side.
...

What I found when I used the inexpensive CFLs of CRI 92, which I thought might be good enough, is that some color tones would "punch up" while others would be subdued. It was not successful enough for accurate color rendition of anything important that I would shoot.

The CFL products with a CRI of 98 were better, but electronic flash is still noticeably the best.

A light tent is almost always a requirement with shiny stuff and makes shadow removal a lot easier for any product. A product table with a transparent top and a sweep under is another big time saver.

At my previous employer I had a room approximately 12' x 24' and it was constructed with white walls and white ceiling tile, along with white-ish floor tiles. (The opposite of what most product studios use with a "blackout theme.) I used the walls and ceiling to bounce the studio flash and give me a very large effective source. Then I used light tents close to the objects to be photographed, which were often polished brass and polished chrome. I would often still have to paint out the camera lens reflection from the object, but the lighting itself was nicely diffused.

fredjclaus

Zig, you seem to be the resident expert on this subject, and I appreciate your information. I'm learning a lot by talking to you. The objects that I am photographing vary. I could be photographing jewlery for a new client, or t-shirts for a website store, or snowmobile engine parts for a local racing company. My day job right now is as a marketing consultant for Conagra Foods, so I'm also working on getting a contract to do Slim Jim's photography.

My current set up is just a small table with a white paper background and a window for available light. I've done some good work using the light from the window and a few reflectors, but I want to get better results so I can look more professional and get the larger contracts. Would you recommend I continue with the white seamless paper, or look into a light tent?

Also eventually I want to have a more professional studio, but lighting has always been a big issue that I'm struggling to learn. If I am reading your initial reply correctly you recommend I use Studio strobes. So if I take the umbrella lights from my portrait studio and use them the same way in product photography I would have better results with the product? I used CFL's because my current studio lights don't have a constant on setting so the CFL's help me find the shadows faster.

ChatKat

Westcott
Westcott Spiderlights are Color Balanced at 5500K. I am really happy with my TD5 and softbox. I bought it to do on location kids and it's great for toddlers because they aren't waiting for the flash/strobe to pop.

ziggy53

fredjclaus wrote:

... The objects that I am photographing vary. I could be photographing jewlery for a new client, or t-shirts for a website store, or snowmobile engine parts for a local racing company. My day job right now is as a marketing consultant for Conagra Foods, so I'm also working on getting a contract to do Slim Jim's photography.

My current set up is just a small table with a white paper background and a window for available light. I've done some good work using the light from the window and a few reflectors, but I want to get better results so I can look more professional and get the larger contracts. Would you recommend I continue with the white seamless paper, or look into a light tent?

...

I hope you get some more contracts, but do make sure you know the expectations both for the photography and deliverables.

White seamless is a great background for a lot of subjects. It does little to diffuse light. A light tent allows for "much" softer shadows and less specular highlights and it's almost always an advantage. For shiny objects it also simplifies reflections. If you want to compete with other product photographers, an assortment of light tent type devices is a vital necessity for the shiny stuff.

A product table, typically with a transparent top or translucent top, helps to simplify the job of shadow removal if that is required for the job. An appropriate sweep is used under the table and it's lit separately.

fredjclaus wrote:

... Also eventually I want to have a more professional studio, but lighting has always been a big issue that I'm struggling to learn. If I am reading your initial reply correctly you recommend I use Studio strobes. So if I take the umbrella lights from my portrait studio and use them the same way in product photography I would have better results with the product? I used CFL's because my current studio lights don't have a constant on setting so the CFL's help me find the shadows faster.

If you want the best color control, CFLs are not going to provide it. If the demands from the client don't require a complete spectra, CFLs may be fine. Run some test images and let your clients decide. As long as the clients are happy, the color from CFLs is fine.

The other problem is control over lighting proportions. Studio flash are generally much easier to set lighting ratios. If you are unconcerned about lighting ratios, and if your customers are happy with your results, CFLs are fine.

The "Spiderlights" that ChatKat mentioned do allow some light output control in that some use multiple CFL bulbs and switch "banks" of the lights off and on.

fredjclaus

Ziggy,

Thanks for answering my questions on this subject. It truely is nice to have a group like this where a working photographer can ask questions and have other working photographers answer them honestly.

I did take your advise, and I ordered a 30" Light tent to start with, I have a few more sizes in mind but I ordered one to start. I just have another question. I saw a sample of a photograph shot with bare bulb lighting on white seamless paper, then the same item shot in a light tent. I do see the difference. Light tents though seem to be made of rip stop nylon mostly. Would there be any difference between photographing in a light tent, verses photographing on seamless paper in the open, with bare bulbs diffused through a taught piece of rip stop nylon?

ziggy53

fredjclaus wrote:

... Would there be any difference between photographing in a light tent, verses photographing on seamless paper in the open, with bare bulbs diffused through a taught piece of rip stop nylon?

Don't get too concerned about commercial "light tents". Any diffusion method which provides omni-directional light diffusion around the object may be considered a light tent. The concept is to provide the light diffusion universally around the object.

Smaller diffusers work better on smaller objects that are shot at higher magnifications too. Double-diffusion is also used for the shiniest objects.

For objects with a very coarse surface you might use a lot less diffusion than with an object that has a shiny surface. Don't get stuck in thinking that a single solution fits all problems.

While you may have a fairly standard lighting setup, the actual placement of the lights will be object and project goal driven. The diffusion method and extent will also be object and goal driven. It will ultimately come down to your control of the lighting and your positioning of the object as to how successful the products are photographed. Lens choice and tripod positioning, ambient light and even floor vibration control will all play a part in the final image.

fredjclaus

thanks again for your advise Ziggy, you are a great mentor for so many people who wish to become more professional in this field of photogrpahy. Do you have any tips on where I can learn more about controling light for product photography? I like Prophotolife.com (by the way, your avitar looks an awfull lot like Jim's profile picture) but are there any others?

ziggy53

Mostly get control of the lighting. This takes a lot of practice to learn how to place the shadows and highlights where you want, and then add the diffusion to make everything look smooth and fit in the dynamic range of the imager (unless you choose to do otherwise).

Some good links to different techniques to practice and apply:

http://www.photoflexlightingschool.com/Equipment_Lessons/Soft_Boxes___Continuous/SilverDome/Bike/index.html

http://www.ehow.com/video_4985173_product-photography-lighting.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvbqktQ4NSw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqmOQK6odM&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zARqGgHjNc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-oyv8zQFUQ&feature=related

Whenever you see lighting or proprietary products in these examples, feel free to substitute with what you have or with a more appropriate component for your needs.