Canon 7D Poor IQ - Banding

toadlet

Is anyone experiencing any banding/lines when post processing their images from the Canon 7D? I have been seeing lines/banding shooting at ISO100 and this are very apparent in many images in the sky/cloud areas. I never had this issue with a cheaper entry level camera. Is it normal, or a fault?

Here are some examples, all shot at 100ISO RAW, processed in Canon DPP. They were shot to expose to the right, and then underexposed and contrasted added to bring out the texture of the cloud detail.

DsrtVW

Has it always done that or did it just start. Dont have any idea what would be causing it

toadlet

DsrtVW wrote:

Has it always done that or did it just start. Dont have any idea what would be causing it

It has done it from the beginning, it is only 2 weeks old.

colourbox

Definitely shouldn't be happening under the shot specs you said, ISO 100 exposed to the right and darkened.

The only thing I can think of is if Auto ISO is on and it wasn't that bright out and the camera actually hiked up the ISO on you. But if you mean it says ISO 100 on the EXIF recorded with the images, I have no idea. If this is pervasive the camera might have to be looked at by a tech.

toadlet

colourbox wrote:

Definitely shouldn't be happening under the shot specs you said, ISO 100 exposed to the right and darkened.

The only thing I can think of is if Auto ISO is on and it wasn't that bright out and the camera actually hiked up the ISO on you. But if you mean it says ISO 100 on the EXIF recorded with the images, I have no idea. If this is pervasive the camera might have to be looked at by a tech.

No auto ISO in these shots, all at base level. Such a shame as it's not that old:)

GadgetRick

My friend has a 7D and his is at Canon Service right now for this very issue. He's done a lot of research. Unfortunately, it seems like it's a bit of a design, "flaw," and I'm not sure it is something which can be, "fixed," if you know what I mean. He's a member here, I'll see if he is around to post his findings...

toadlet

GadgetRick wrote:

My friend has a 7D and his is at Canon Service right now for this very issue. He's done a lot of research. Unfortunately, it seems like it's a bit of a design, "flaw," and I'm not sure it is something which can be, "fixed," if you know what I mean. He's a member here, I'll see if he is around to post his findings...

Thanks for your reply and of your friends similar issues. Would be great if you could find some of his old posts on the issue. I have seen this issue raised on other forums etc and it seems like a catch 22 as a return or new camera may not yield any better results? Maybe a firmware fix in the future could resolve the issue?

ziggy53

All Bayer imager based images can be made to produce color banding if you push the tones around too much with contrast and/or saturation. The visual effect will be greatest in regions with little expected color, like neutral clouds. You might try masking those regions and reducing the saturation to taste. Some noise reduction algorithms can also help.

If you shot RAW you can also try a different demosaicing algorithm as that's often part of the problem. I believe that the algorithm in Canon's DPP bundled software is different from Adobe's ACR. RAW Therapee has 3 algorithms* from which to choose and test.

*(EAHD and HPHD and VNG-4)

GadgetRick

I don't know all of the details but have been following my friend's problems. It's actually an acknowledged problem (sort of) by Canon. Also, I think Ziggy is on the right track, I think it's got something to do with whatever you use to bring the RAW file in as I believe he got slightly different results depending on how he imported the images.

It is definately there as I've seen it on many images and it tends to only happen at 100 ISO. Some people say it's because it's an 18MP camera and the res is too high which causes this. I'm not sure I buy that one.

He's also heard Canon intentionally dumbed down the 7D (ever so slightly) to distinguish it from the higher-end cameras. Not unheard of with consumer electronics (ok, the camera isn't so much consumer electronics but the company is) but, again, not sure I totally buy that one either. The 7D is a pro-level camera. I find it hard to believe they'd cripple it in that way.

Other people have said it's bad QC. It could be defective units but they're not admitting to it. Still may be the case but we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Awais Yaqub

Shot at ISO 1600 with no banding. But my Xti use to exhibit banding occasionally, then i think after updating DPP to latest version solved the issue. Banding is also mentioned in Canon 7D manual, but i have not experienced it so far.

toadlet

Awais Yaqub wrote:

Shot at ISO 1600 with no banding. But my Xti use to exhibit banding occasionally, then i think after updating DPP to latest version solved the issue. Banding is also mentioned in Canon 7D manual, but i have not experienced it so far.

On what page in the manual does it talk about banding?

gecko0

page 62 of the pdf manual mentions (horizontal) banding, but says it may occur at high ISO, not low ISO like the OP.

toadlet

I will wait and hear what Canon has to say about it.

canonthen

toadlet wrote:

Thanks for your reply and of your friends similar issues. Would be great if you could find some of his old posts on the issue. I have seen this issue raised on other forums etc and it seems like a catch 22 as a return or new camera may not yield any better results? Maybe a firmware fix in the future could resolve the issue?

Hey toadlet. I'm that friend gadgetrick mentioned. My 7D is just over a month old. I took it to Canon's east coast service center for evaluation and still waiting to hear their final word on the matter. I noticed noise and branding at ISO100 exactly like the samples you posted. There are lots of threads about noise with the 7D but not at ISO100. Most of the noise complaints seem to be at mid to high. If it's any help I only shoot RAW and mostly manual. I use Lightroom to import and process my RAW files. Just to rule out that the problem could be LR I tried Canon's software but the noise was still there.

Now, I just started to use LR3 Beta 2 and noticed my RAW files seemed cleaner as far as the noise is concerned. I am starting to think that the 7D RAW profile is not yet fully compatible with the software that's available now. I have not done enough testing to fully support this.

At this point I am just looking to get the camera back from Canon. I'm pretty sure they won't find anything wrong with it....then again maybe they will fess up to this problem. I sent them a nice comment to complement the survey they urged me to send in. I remember something along the lines of Toyota product quality.......

Out of curiosity have you tried shooting jpeg and looked to see if the noise and banding are still there?

toadlet

canonthen wrote:

Hey toadlet. I'm that friend gadgetrick mentioned. My 7D is just over a month old. I took it to Canon's east coast service center for evaluation and still waiting to hear their final word on the matter. I noticed noise and branding at ISO100 exactly like the samples you posted. There are lots of threads about noise with the 7D but not at ISO100. Most of the noise complaints seem to be at mid to high. If it's any help I only shoot RAW and mostly manual. I use Lightroom to import and process my RAW files. Just to rule out that the problem could be LR I tried Canon's software but the noise was still there.

Now, I just started to use LR3 Beta 2 and noticed my RAW files seemed cleaner as far as the noise is concerned. I am starting to think that the 7D RAW profile is not yet fully compatible with the software that's available now. I have not done enough testing to fully support this.

At this point I am just looking to get the camera back from Canon. I'm pretty sure they won't find anything wrong with it....then again maybe they will fess up to this problem. I sent them a nice comment to complement the survey they urged me to send in. I remember something along the lines of Toyota product quality.......

Out of curiosity have you tried shooting jpeg and looked to see if the noise and banding are still there?

Thanks for your insights and fist hand experiences. When did Canon say that they would be finished with your camera? Did they give you a rough date? Seems like quite some time that they have had your camera. I have also done some JPG images and from memory these have the same issues too.

canonthen

toadlet wrote:

Thanks for your insights and fist hand experiences. When did Canon say that they would be finished with your camera? Did they give you a rough date? Seems like quite some time that they have had your camera. I have also done some JPG images and from memory these have the same issues too.

I have no idea when it will be ready. They just give me the standard answer 7-10 business days. I'll keep posting any updates.

studio1972

Could it be too much light?
Just wondering, if you are exposing to the right at ISO100, that means that you are hitting the sensor with a lot of light, it's 'natural' ISO might be somewhat higher than ISO100, so when in ISO100 you probably have very little headroom. Maybe try the same technique in ISO200 and see if that makes a difference?

canonthen

studio1972 wrote:

Just wondering, if you are exposing to the right at ISO100, that means that you are hitting the sensor with a lot of light, it's 'natural' ISO might be somewhat higher than ISO100, so when in ISO100 you probably have very little headroom. Maybe try the same technique in ISO200 and see if that makes a difference?

Well if it makes any diferrence I campared my shots with a 50D. Every setting was exactly the same (same shutter and aperture). Result was 7D as noisy as toadlet's pictures and 50D with zero noise.

In case it matters I also tried difereent lenses just for the heck of it (Canon 24-105L and Sigma 30mm f. 1.4).

Still waiting to hear what Canon will conclude.

toadlet

canonthen wrote:

Well if it makes any diferrence I campared my shots with a 50D. Every setting was exactly the same (same shutter and aperture). Result was 7D as noisy as toadlet's pictures and 50D with zero noise.

In case it matters I also tried difereent lenses just for the heck of it (Canon 24-105L and Sigma 30mm f. 1.4).

Still waiting to hear what Canon will conclude.

Yes, agree with your comments, different lenses, ISO settings don't seem to make any difference.

GadgetRick

canonthen wrote:

Well if it makes any diferrence I campared my shots with a 50D. Every setting was exactly the same (same shutter and aperture). Result was 7D as noisy as toadlet's pictures and 50D with zero noise.

In case it matters I also tried difereent lenses just for the heck of it (Canon 24-105L and Sigma 30mm f. 1.4).

Still waiting to hear what Canon will conclude.

I could always trade you the 50D for the 7D. I'll deal with the noise...

NeilL

This is disturbing, and shakes one's faith in Canon's higher end products! You know, in another thread, people are debating the value of video in the 7D and 5D2. Some say it doesn't mean improved IQ for still photog is missing out. The 7D can take good enough video for it to be used by TV and media companies etc, yet it can't take a picture of clouds! Makes you wonder!

Hope you get a meaningful answer and a fix from Toyo... I mean Canon!wink:D

Neil

canonthen

I can't even describe how frustrating it is to deal with Canon's service center.

I took in my 7D on Tues. 3/23/10. After numerous calls (one not so pleasant conversation after being frustrated with the same BS response call after call), they still have not concluded their evaluation. They just keep pushing me the same message 5-7 days until I get it back. Well it's past their time frame and no resolution.
The unofficial word is that they realized there is a problem and that it's now waiting a management decision. So what problem and what decision you may ask.....well the answer is: nothing. Not after even after excalating the call did anyone have any type of information other than 5-7 days turn around time.

All I can say is welcome to the world of Canon customer service.

canonthen

**Update**

Just got the call from Canon. They are ordering a brand new 7D for me. No other details.....as expected.

I'll post up some pictures from the original 7D, in case it might be helpful to anyone.

toadlet

canonthen wrote:

**Update**

Just got the call from Canon. They are ordering a brand new 7D for me. No other details.....as expected.

I'll post up some pictures from the original 7D, in case it might be helpful to anyone.

That's good news, I hope your new one is better for you.

Wachel

canonthen wrote:

**Update**

Just got the call from Canon. They are ordering a brand new 7D for me. No other details.....as expected.

I'll post up some pictures from the original 7D, in case it might be helpful to anyone.

I read this thread and I am confused. Sorry if I am not the brightest bulb in the pack but...In an earlier post you stated Canon said 7-10 days turnaround. You sent your camera in on Mar 23. You are getting a new camera ordered on April 2. From what I am reading, Canon is doing what they said, correct? I understand the frustration of a faulty product as I have dealt similar issues but if Canon did what they promised....

Again, sorry if I am missing something.

toadlet

canonthen wrote:

**Update**

Just got the call from Canon. They are ordering a brand new 7D for me. No other details.....as expected.

I'll post up some pictures from the original 7D, in case it might be helpful to anyone.

Could you post some examples up of what you were getting with your camera?

Marc Muench

Very frustrating indeed!
I have used my 7D quite extensively since last October and have not noticed this issue. Had I, it would not be in my camera case today. Therefore, I think your new one will be better

There is an issue though. To this day the camera profile used by ACR stinks!
The adverse effect in my opinion is the colors are not as accurate as they ought to be. I have attempted to utilize the Canon software but find way too many other compromise compared with ACR or LR. I have ways of dealing with the color that make the images fine. For video, I use a customized version of the neutral picture style just to lower contrast and color. I believe this chip would have been far better utilized at a lower res,maybe 12MP. This would have increased the cell sites making cleaner data, but that is just my opinion! I like this camera for many other reasons as well.

canonthen

Wachel wrote:

I read this thread and I am confused. Sorry if I am not the brightest bulb in the pack but...In an earlier post you stated Canon said 7-10 days turnaround. You sent your camera in on Mar 23. You are getting a new camera ordered on April 2. From what I am reading, Canon is doing what they said, correct? I understand the frustration of a faulty product as I have dealt similar issues but if Canon did what they promised....

Again, sorry if I am missing something.

Michael, you are correct in what I wrote above. That is my mistake. They quoted me 5-7 days but said I would get it sooner. Canon's website said 7 days but then a few days later it changed to 10 days.

Makeroftoys

toadlet wrote:

Is anyone experiencing any banding/lines when post processing their images from the Canon 7D? I have been seeing lines/banding shooting at ISO100 and this are very apparent in many images in the sky/cloud areas. I never had this issue with a cheaper entry level camera. Is it normal, or a fault?

So I was told by a couple of people who were hanging around the camera store, that sometimes banding can be caused by *memory card* write speed being too slow; and that the 5DII and 7D were especially vulnerable to this. The consensus was that it would be a bigger problem with video. It wasn't clear to me WHY, but this might be a factor. (?)

SooooOOoooo. . . .I guess maybe I'll haul some of my old cards out and make some experiements with my 5DII. I'll try and report back midday-ish, California time.

canonthen

Makeroftoys wrote:

So I was told by a couple of people who were hanging around the camera store, that sometimes banding can be caused by *memory card* write speed being too slow; and that the 5DII and 7D were especially vulnerable to this. The consensus was that it would be a bigger problem with video. It wasn't clear to me WHY, but this might be a factor. (?)

SooooOOoooo. . . .I guess maybe I'll haul some of my old cards out and make some experiements with my 5DII. I'll try and report back midday-ish, California time.

Interesting but I don't think that's the case for me. I'm currently using Lexmark's 233x pro. That's not slow but not the fastest either.

NeilL

Makeroftoys wrote:

So I was told by a couple of people who were hanging around the camera store, that sometimes banding can be caused by *memory card* write speed being too slow; and that the 5DII and 7D were especially vulnerable to this. The consensus was that it would be a bigger problem with video. It wasn't clear to me WHY, but this might be a factor. (?)

SooooOOoooo. . . .I guess maybe I'll haul some of my old cards out and make some experiements with my 5DII. I'll try and report back midday-ish, California time.

Can't follow that reasoning since it seems to say data is lost in the transfer. But data goes into a buffer and then onto the card, when the buffer is full no more shots can be taken for the moment. How quickly the buffer empties depends on the speed of the card. Nothing in this can cause loss of data.

Neil