Wording help for saying "NO" to client

Snowgirl

So, I did a newborn shoot last week-end. The good news is that the family is happy with the photos and wants to buy several prints. The bad news is...

The Mom asked me if I could design her birth announcements for her by creating a collage of 5 of the photos and adding text. I said yes, of course, and quoted her $75 for my time to do this. She asked if that included the prints and I said no - just the design work and that the $75 was a seriously discounted price already.

She balked at the price. Ok. She found a website where she could just send jpegs and order printed cards with photos on them - but they'd have to be converted to black and white and cropped - at a very inexpensive price. I don't really want other people mucking about with my images - although I would be willing to send the photos directly there on her behalf - maybe.

THEN she wanted to know if she could buy a CD with the original images and do the work herself - I think NOT! She doesn't have the training or software and my work would end up looking shabby.

So, that said - how do I TACTFULLY tell her no f'n way - and keep her as a client for the future for her family shots this summer? Hmmm. A dilemma.:scratch

The Mack

Snowgirl wrote:

So, I did a newborn shoot last week-end. The good news is that the family is happy with the photos and wants to buy several prints. The bad news is...

The Mom asked me if I could design her birth announcements for her by creating a collage of 5 of the photos and adding text. I said yes, of course, and quoted her $75 for my time to do this. She asked if that included the prints and I said no - just the design work and that the $75 was a seriously discounted price already.

She balked at the price. Ok. She found a website where she could just send jpegs and order printed cards with photos on them - but they'd have to be converted to black and white and cropped - at a very inexpensive price. I don't really want other people mucking about with my images - although I would be willing to send the photos directly there on her behalf - maybe.

THEN she wanted to know if she could buy a CD with the original images and do the work herself - I think NOT! She doesn't have the training or software and my work would end up looking shabby.

So, that said - how do I TACTFULLY tell her no f'n way - and keep her as a client for the future for her family shots this summer? Hmmm. A dilemma.

If she buys the originals, pays you money for them, why do you care what she does?

At some point you need to consider that she's the customer, if that's what she wants to do, then that's what she's going to do, or she won't be a repeat customer.

Wil Davis

The Mack wrote:

If she buys the originals, pays you money for them, why do you care what she does?

At some point you need to consider that she's the customer, if that's what she wants to do, then that's what she's going to do, or she won't be a repeat customer.

Absolutely!

To the OP: In your original post, twice you mentioned "your" pictures; I would have thought that at the end of the day the pictures belong to your client, although I've no idea what you've written into your contract.

I would say just charge her for your time, and if she wants to mess around with the final product, then OK providing she doesn't pass the work off as being yours.



- Wil

Scott_Quier

The business model where the photographer makes the images and controls the negative for the entire life of that negative is slowly (or not so slowly) being overcome by events (mostly technological).

The "new" model seems to be one where the photographer is assumed by the client to be a service provider, almost a worker for hire, where the client expects to pay for the photog's time and effort and, in return, receive the images to do with as they like.

The issue with the new model is, basically, one of trying to reconcile the practice of delivering the images on a CD and still retain the copyright. But, if the photographer is a "worker for hire" then the copyright does, indeed, belong to the client.

So, back to the OP .... how one says "No" is largely dependant on the terms of the contract (implied or otherwise) entered into by the two parties (look at me sounding all lawyer-ish - BTW, IMNAL). It's entirely possible that you may not have a supportable position from which you can say "No."

If it is your wish to retain ownership of the images you produce, you may need to investigate either writing and using a contract that states this or changing your expectations and business model.

Snowgirl

Fair enough. I think you are all right that the business model IS changing and up to a point I agree - if the client wants everything they should be able to buy it.

That said, I want to retain control of any editing - not even so much for the money - but because when the client prints it out it becomes a sample of my work - an advertisement if you wish - and I want it to look the best we can make it - even if it's printed at Wally World or on a home printer. If I edit it - then if the client wants to do her own printing - at least I've given it the best shot. Does that make sense?

Snowgirl

Alternative pricing structure?
Another thought. If the client wants to purchase edited files for self-printing, how would you price that accordingly?

So, for example, let's say you are paid a shooting fee - that covers your time and effort at whatever hourly rate you need to earn a fair living based on your known business plan.

Now - you offer prints (either through SmugMug or some other source) in various sizes etc. - again, priced based on your business plan. And, those prices allow for some minor editing time (e.g. crop to fit desired print size - a few minor adjustments if needed - nothing major like background removal, skin treatment etc.).

Now - client wants a CD for self printing - do you require the client to tell you want sizes she wants and you do the cropping? Or do you just do the basic editing - more or less SOCC - and send them an original file in whatever size format your camera produces and let the client do what they can crop wise?

Believe it or not, my concern is that the client be happy with the end product more than just the dollars involved - and my reputation as well, of course.

What do you think is the most fair approach for both the client and the photographer - in terms of value and cost?

takeflightphoto

Scott_Quier wrote:

...The "new" model seems to be one where the photographer is assumed by the client to be a service provider, almost a worker for hire, where the client expects to pay for the photog's time and effort and, in return, receive the images to do with as they like...

The "new" model is the one proliferated by the hundreds of Digital Debbies and Donnies out there that think because they have a DSLR and some free time, that they can just "Shoot and Burn" and leave the quality of the printing to the client. They have no skill in retouching or editing, no desire to spend any more time than it takes to transfer their CF or SD card to a DVD burner, and then collect a check. WalMart or RiteAid then becomes the lab and the client is stuck with basically crap.

If your client "assumes you to (just) be a service provider" with no continuation of creative control over the product that you produce for them, then you haven't clearly explained to them how you will guarantee the quality of the print products and take care of the proper retouching, cropping, and other post production items that may be needed.

I ask clients if they want the photos of the most important times of their lives entrusted to someone who is doing it on "mommy time" and printed at "wally world" or to someone who will take care of them from beginning to end and make sure that the portrait that they hang on their wall is one that their children will want to inherit. I've had very few take the DigiDeb route after they think about that.

And, oh....my contract will never specify me as doing "work for hire."

angevin1

Snowgirl wrote:

Another thought. If the client wants to purchase edited files for self-printing, how would you price that accordingly?

So, for example, let's say you are paid a shooting fee - that covers your time and effort at whatever hourly rate you need to earn a fair living based on your known business plan.

Now - you offer prints (either through SmugMug or some other source) in various sizes etc. - again, priced based on your business plan. And, those prices allow for some minor editing time (e.g. crop to fit desired print size - a few minor adjustments if needed - nothing major like background removal, skin treatment etc.).

Now - client wants a CD for self printing - do you require the client to tell you want sizes she wants and you do the cropping? Or do you just do the basic editing - more or less SOCC - and send them an original file in whatever size format your camera produces and let the client do what they can crop wise?

Not me. I will gladly sell them a CD of the edited photos. I edit them to crop that I think works, coloring that I think works, and aesthetics that I think works. They then can get their CD and compare what they see on it to what they see on my Website, and then if there are issues, they know they can blame themselves for the crappy printer/print house they chose.

I did the you-tell-me-I-crop thing ONCE.,....total PITA.

Snowgirl wrote:

Believe it or not, my concern is that the client be happy with the end product more than just the dollars involved - and my reputation as well, of course.

Easy to believe this, otherwise you wouldn't bother with Posting and pondering all this! Your REP may well take a screwin over this just because you said no, or potentially pissed the gal off in the first place.

Snowgirl wrote:

What do you think is the most fair approach for both the client and the photographer - in terms of value and cost?

You have a LOT of good questions and Many Good answers here.

I think it can totally depend on the demographic you are trying to serve.

I notice that Bay Photo charges about $65/hour to fix photos and that is prob way reasonable. Part of this issue is the vetting process. Asking the client beforehand what it is she will want as an end product. She may then decide she wants other crap, and she ought to know she's gonna have to pay for more work from you. But some folks just don't seem to get that, or they are habitual "takers" and they will take you wherever you are willing to go with them.

On a personal note, I have a family I hear from every two Months or so about photos I took (last September). They still haven't purchased any and I closed their gallery after the agreed upon time. I put them back up when she had written me before, spent time on the phone walking her through a purchase ( at Christmas) and so forth, even went back in and re-cropped to suit her Mom, etc. and still they haven't purchased. Heard from her Last Saturday again(!) BUT.,....and it is a BIG BUT, I got paid day-one for my work. Granted, the extra work I put into it around Christmas was to be paid for, and no she didn't pay me as directed (paypal or check), but I actually didn't mind helping her...though, I thought she was buyin too. Taker!

Long story, sorry about that.

I will say for the record. When I take folks photos, I consider the end product theirs. I don't want a photo of them. But prior to rendering the end result, the photo is mine to fix as I desire.

I hear your pain here on Her wanting to send your photos off, crop them and goof them up potentially. but your other thing is how do you save her as a customer??

1. is she worth saving? If so, then do what you can as best you can to satisfy her.

2. If she ain't worth saving, you know what to do.

Snowgirl

Thanks Tom, Jon and everyone for your considered responses. I'm taking tonight to think it over and then I'll answer my client tomorrow - and let you know how it turns out - once I decide for sure what I want to do. Sigh.

takeflightphoto

Snowgirl wrote:

Thanks Tom, Jon and everyone for your considered responses. I'm taking tonight to think it over and then I'll answer my client tomorrow - and let you know how it turns out - once I decide for sure what I want to do. Sigh.

Well, she's going to need a rights release from you to get them printed anywhere that cares about their own skin, so have her (and anyone else you might hand over originals to) sign an agreement worded such:

"Photographer releases all rights to the digital files on the disc entitled (blah blah) to Customer. Customer releases Photographer from any and all responsibility for the quality of any printing not under the control of the Photographer, including poor paper quality, damaged images, poor color correction or reproduction, mishandling of digital images, or any other mistakes, errors, or omissions that may occur."

I'm not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV, but I think that would probably cover it all and put her on notice that she can't come running to you if the other place boots the job. (Unless she wants to pay you to do it properly)

I'd just explain to her that you value her business and that you want to see the job done right, and WILL stand behind YOUR work, but if she chooses to go somewhere else that she will have to take responsibility for what may transpire. And this short document protects you in that case.

Good Luck!!!