Request for Digital Copies for Facebook
SamirD
Registered Users Posts: 3,474 Major grins
I know as photographers, you have all had these requests. I've give you some background and then my question.
I'm currently not on Facebook due to the additional strain it will place on my time managing yet another communication medium. I also haven't exactly figured out how to use it to promote business without people finding me personally. I'm a private person and want my life to stay that way. I also don't want FB getting traffic that I should otherwise get. So FB integration is work in progress.
But I have a client who I shoot for--a local nightclub. I charge a per-hour shooting fee to cover their events, and I give them links to my SM galleries to be published on their web site so people can see the images and purchase prints. I also post the galleries myself on a local nightlife forum. But their web site isn't done yet. No biggie, I thought to myself as they assured me that they're working on their site. They recently added a third venue inside their complex, so I can see why their site might be taking a while.
Another local photographer has a similar setup with another local club at similar rates. (I used to shoot with him and we're both friends.) The friend of mine's galleries are linked to directly by his nightclub's web site just as mine would be.
Well, now I noticed that my club's events are listed only on facebook and their main site has 'coming soon' message and a link to their facebook's event listing. And for the most recent gallery I shot, I got a request to give them the images on CD for the purpose of putting it on their web site and on FB.
Well if I did this, right there that would cut out any print sales. And then I would have to prep the images to get them to them, which is another bit of work. And then the possibility of the images being used for other purposes like their web site design or otherwise becomes a reality. Without the control of a SM gallery, they might as well be public domain once someone has a digital copy.
I understand the value in putting the images on FB because of the tagging, but even with watermarked images (which they've agreed to not touch), there's no protection from saving the image at all. So again my ability to enforce copyrights goes to nil.
My thoughts are like this so far--I will not yield on the SM galleries being linked from their main web site--that's traffic and sales, and my friend gets that so I should too. I will grant a very limited license to post a gallery of images on facebook, and maybe even resize the images down to like 450 or 500 on the largest side to really make them useless for anything other. And I would require that they post a link to the original gallery when posting the images. But for this additional service, I still will increase my fees. I'm the best there is town at this type of photography, so I really feel a 'take or leave it' attitude coming on, but I do want to work with them as this is interesting and challenging work.
I don't really have a way of checking up on them or enforcing my rights other than through FB's copyright policy. But the biggest thing that alarms me is that once those images are on FB, I have no control where or who they will go to--and worse yet, have no way to prevent deviant works or alterations from other users other than my clients. It's almost as if FB's policy is to allow copyrighted content to be posted by the creator, and then the entire community to violate that person's rights without any recourse for the creator.
Thoughts and feedback appreciated. :thumb
I'm currently not on Facebook due to the additional strain it will place on my time managing yet another communication medium. I also haven't exactly figured out how to use it to promote business without people finding me personally. I'm a private person and want my life to stay that way. I also don't want FB getting traffic that I should otherwise get. So FB integration is work in progress.
But I have a client who I shoot for--a local nightclub. I charge a per-hour shooting fee to cover their events, and I give them links to my SM galleries to be published on their web site so people can see the images and purchase prints. I also post the galleries myself on a local nightlife forum. But their web site isn't done yet. No biggie, I thought to myself as they assured me that they're working on their site. They recently added a third venue inside their complex, so I can see why their site might be taking a while.
Another local photographer has a similar setup with another local club at similar rates. (I used to shoot with him and we're both friends.) The friend of mine's galleries are linked to directly by his nightclub's web site just as mine would be.
Well, now I noticed that my club's events are listed only on facebook and their main site has 'coming soon' message and a link to their facebook's event listing. And for the most recent gallery I shot, I got a request to give them the images on CD for the purpose of putting it on their web site and on FB.
Well if I did this, right there that would cut out any print sales. And then I would have to prep the images to get them to them, which is another bit of work. And then the possibility of the images being used for other purposes like their web site design or otherwise becomes a reality. Without the control of a SM gallery, they might as well be public domain once someone has a digital copy.
I understand the value in putting the images on FB because of the tagging, but even with watermarked images (which they've agreed to not touch), there's no protection from saving the image at all. So again my ability to enforce copyrights goes to nil.
My thoughts are like this so far--I will not yield on the SM galleries being linked from their main web site--that's traffic and sales, and my friend gets that so I should too. I will grant a very limited license to post a gallery of images on facebook, and maybe even resize the images down to like 450 or 500 on the largest side to really make them useless for anything other. And I would require that they post a link to the original gallery when posting the images. But for this additional service, I still will increase my fees. I'm the best there is town at this type of photography, so I really feel a 'take or leave it' attitude coming on, but I do want to work with them as this is interesting and challenging work.
I don't really have a way of checking up on them or enforcing my rights other than through FB's copyright policy. But the biggest thing that alarms me is that once those images are on FB, I have no control where or who they will go to--and worse yet, have no way to prevent deviant works or alterations from other users other than my clients. It's almost as if FB's policy is to allow copyrighted content to be posted by the creator, and then the entire community to violate that person's rights without any recourse for the creator.
Thoughts and feedback appreciated. :thumb
Pictures and Videos of the Huntsville Car Scene: www.huntsvillecarscene.com
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I posted a question on the Smugmug Customization forum about the new Facebook Social Plug-ins because they seem to make it possible to leave your images on Smugmug with all its controls, but add code that lets them be "liked" and commented on, as if they were inside the Facebook system. I don't know enough to know how feasible it is to add the Facebook code to Smugmug pages, which is why I raised the question. Looking forward to what the answer might be.
Even if you can keep them on Facebook, if they need to be displayed on another site as links back to Smugmug hosted images then External Links must be enabled. If that is enabled, I believe the images cannot be download-protected at the other site.
Even if I was externally linking to FB versus adding to their galleries, I'd feel more secure knowing I can pull the images anytime I want to avoid any further infringement. I know that even on SM, it's possible to get a copy of the image, but the FB userbase seems to wholly disregard copyrights and intellectual property rights, so it's just asking for stuff to be stolen and misused.
But unfortunately, linking doesn't allow the almighty tagging, which has become the 'killer app' for photos on the Internet. Even the 'like' feature probably wouldn't be enough.
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the main drawback to a fan page is you don't get notifications when people become a fan, leave as a fan, or comment on anything. The advantage of it is when people do become a fan, its announced to all their friends. But this works with a personal page to if you put photography or a business name as your name.
the nice thing about facebook is when you upload pictures, and tag the client, all their friends see the pictures. And maybe they will become a fan and all their friends will hear about you that way.
Oh, I totally missed that. Right, you get likes and fb comments but apparently not people tags. And the people tags are the most powerful part, yes.
I guess the "upload them to Facebook, but small and with a watermark" method is still going to reign for now.
If you are busy selling right now from those event shoots, then I can fully understand your concern! And if your not selling any/many, I'm not too sure it'd make a difference.
But lets say you are selling and then the photos go to FB. If someone lifts a FB photo it'd be too small to print to any reasonable size.
The FB exposure could well increase your sales, just by folks knowing where they can get a decent version of the photo they happen to like.
With the exception of folks wanting to download an image or images, I just cannot imagine them wanting to actually purchase a print of the event. If the event was a contest of some sort and you took a formal shot of them there that reflects their great personal triumph at the event, then I can imagine it.
So, are you selling right now from these events?
Well stated, I was thinking the same thing.
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
My Pictures | My blog
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If there are people in the shots I tag them in the few photos I do post and then their friends all receive notifications (even if the photo I choose to post is an inanimate object). Then people (hopefully) click on the link and drive traffic to my website. I can track how many people click in by looking at the referral sites in my web statistics. Facebook has gone up dramatically as a referral site but I have only been using it for a small time.
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Quarks are one of the two basic constituents of matter in the Standard Model of particle physics.
Now, this being said, it takes exposure of the gallery to make this happen. My friend that shoots at the other club does get some regular sales. My galleries that are not posted on the venue website--not so much. Is there potential? Yes. Or I wouldn't be doing it.
The shots aren't just valuable to people going out--they're also are valuable to the venue and any performers. Here's one of my favorites from the gallery that brought up the FB question:
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On the subject of using a personal page for business, isn't this in violation of the FB terms of service?
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I don't know, but lots of people do it.
I just add people as friends and post pictures to both my fan page and personal page. I just created an event on my fan page advertising my spring senior portrait special, and you can only send invites to people your friends with on your regular account and fans of the fan page. So it helps having a large friends list. And you can only tag images with people that are either a fan or a friend on your personal page.
But when you use your personal account, you should be careful what you post. You want to seem responsible to your prospective clients.
With the fan page, it would be nice to have a history of who just added you and who just removed from being a fan. I lost someone and I'm not sure who it is.
I haven't even had time to respond to my client, but does the solution I'm thinking seem a fair and middle-ground approach? Any other approaches or ideas?
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What protection does smugmug offer that facebook doesnt? If your talking about the right click blocking, thats easy to get around. Just view the image in a seperate window and save that, or if you cant do that, go into the source code and get the images direct link, or the simplest way, screen copy.
If an image is online, theres no way to keep someone from saving it. Best bet is to put a watermark on it that will keep people from wanting just that image, but encourages them to buy a print to see it with out the watermark.
My main issue with facebook is it erases the file information including your name, copyright info, website, and key words.
But I can understand the loss of print sales. perhaps you can give them a link to your gallery and they can attach the pictures as a link instead of putting the images directly on their site. I dont know how much attention the links get or how easy they are to find on a fan page.
Just seen this one.
Since you get all your sales from direct linking yoru smugmug gallery, I would probably do my best not to give them pictures to put on fb. I would probably give them a teaser image to use with the link and have them forward the people to your sm site that want to view the images. I think you can put an image with a link so they know what the images will be of.
Alot of businesses/artists/etc seem to be dropping the websites and sticking with myspace and/or facebook. Its cheapness on their part and lazyness since their easier to maintain, but from the other perspective, its cheaper and the more money you save, the more money you get to keep. : ) and less time you have to invest doing something other than your art. So I can understand them doing this.
Putting a link doesn't give my client the ability to tag, and that's the killer app. It spreads everything virally.
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Oh, I don't want to hear that.
What's the process for getting images removed or credited on Facebook?
I'm not big on Facebook but one night I got hooked on checking a lot of it out and lo and behold... two of my images are on Facebook. I don't know if there are more... but these two are for a group that has screwed me over. I still try to play nice and I'm still getting the short stick. Now, it's time to do something sooner rather than later.
At first, I wanted to know who uploaded them but I can't even tell. Then I wanted to smoothly try to get those images replaced with a photo with my name on them. The photos are located at a page with the following prefix:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/
to keep it generic for this thread: http://www.facebook.com/page/group-name
I was about to mention there is no way to contact anyone... but I eventually found a way to send a message to the page "group-name."
What happens when I send a message to "group-name?" Does everyone who likes that group get my message? Just the person(s) in charge of the page? So far, I can't even tell if the messaging system works or if I'm writing drafts to myself.
I'm pretty private at the moment (atm), Facebook wise, and don't want my Facebook account found because I'm just not into Facebook atm.
What happens when I click the "report page" link and further follow the "Is this your intellectual property" link?
I hear people mentioning "fair use" from time to time... what if these photos were originally published in a newspaper or magazine? Not that these were, but that would make them easier to prove they are mine (as long as my Facebook name matches the photo credit... lol).
So let's look it from a business perspective.
Firstly, there is NO BETTER MARKETING TOOL out there right now for a club going audience than Facebook. You need to figure it out, and figure out how to make it work for you.
Secondly, people are going to take your images. But they can only STEAL what you don't offer. So rather than worrying about people stealing your images, figure out how you can GIVE them images. No one said you have to put your entire collection of images on FB. I use FB to drive people to my site. I put 5-10 teaser images in my FB business page, tag people, tag the business I shot them for, and every photo has my name, copyright info (FB picks this up automatically from the metadata) and put a link to my webpage if desired. I do this at the FB album level, but you could do it for each image through metadata.
So how do you make it pay? Easy. Come up with terms for the client that say you will give them "x" number of images for FB or other purposes. And charge a price that makes it worthwhile to do so. The real boggle here is why you are going to give your client conytol of your images when you could control them yourself. FB has outstripped every other marketing tool I've ever used. Although Twitter can be exceptionally powerful if used correctly.
Best of luck.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
Of course, I now know how to lift photos from SmugMug... I didn't when I signed up which was part of the reason I signed up at SM... but one day I figured out how. So, I accept the fact that if one sees it.. .they can rip it. Thumbnail versions won't have a watermark... but at least all of my small & medium sized images have had "PROOF" from day one and soon will have a better watermark. If the image was any one of those... I'd be firing off a message real quick, sweet and nice to get it swapped out in addition to working on a better understanding with the client.
As for starting a dialogue with an anonymous FB user and playing nice (apparently only by me)... I seriously still think the messaging system on FB is just me writing drafts that are never sent. In regards to messaging a page or group... if the messaging system works, does everyone in the group get the message? everyone who likes the page? or just the person who created it? Anyone know how fun it is to go through the "Report Page" for "Intellectual Property" abuse process?
I don't want to burn my bridges with this group... but they are burning their end very quickly and appear to not give a darn. I don't want to threaten FB IP abuse... but I would like to know what may happen if I head that way, real fast.
Put your link in the "caption" field in metadata. Done.
Kinda hard to corral the horse after you've let the barn door open. People will game the system. In every endeavor out there. Whether it's taking two newspapers from the newspaper stand when they've paid for one, or people using Ponzi schemes to steal billions. If you'd be willing to spend thousands on an attorney to get back $300, then by all means pursue them. My time is worth more than that to me. And as I said, anything I post on FB, I consider fair game.
Early on, in my marketing on FB, I worried about how to protect my images. I started with a small watermark, and people just cropped it out. I used a HUGE watermark that covers the entire images. But that somewhat defeats the purpose. Then I just decided to place a few freebies out, with a link back to the real stuff. I put my logo on those images, and my metadata goes with the images onto FB. It is what it is. Now I encourage people to take those images. Every time they do, it get's my logo in front of more and new people.
I have no idea how to steal an image. But all of my work on SM is watermarked. With my logo. Across the entire face of the image in most cases. You are not going to stop a determined thief. I just accept that as part of doing business. In most cases, it's just not that big a deal to me. I do all I can, and I leave it at that.
The messaging system works just fine. And no, you are not sending a message to the entire group unless you post on the wall for the group.
Well, if they don't care, why should you? Just move along. Consider it a lesson learned and move forward.
perroneford@ptfphoto.com
As far as removing the image, they have a DCMA request place, but I don't think anyone really mans it. FB has some of the most horrid customer service of any company on the planet. If you send a message to the group, I don't think the entire group gets it unless it is a 'group page'. I bet you can send a personal message to the person in charge of the page and request that the images be taken down. I've seen that work.
When on fb, you're exposed and you have no choice unless you want to violate the tos. Price to pay to be in that world. I'm sure it goes to some department that is waaaaay understaffed for these type of things. The problem is that the concept of intellectual property rights doesn't exist on fb, so that entire community frowns on photos that aren't 'free'. If these were published in a magazine, then yes, you would have a much stronger case, especially with a federal copyright. I bet that would even get that swamped department to do something... You can post a link, but that still doesn't give the almighty tagging capability. That's why SM created the ability for us to copy the images to pages. Once we have them in our albums, we can just tag the group and they'll see the photo. And you can limit the size of the image and have a link automatically put in there for each image in the source gallery, so protection is definitely possible. This is definitely a good way to do it, although I wouldn't put my best or full resolution images on fb for this purpose. And since tagging is the holy grail, you're actually missing some of the capability by limiting how many images to put on there.
It's been years since I originally posed this question, and the company went with another photographer and then dropped the idea completely since their customers are creating the images now and tagging the company--no need for professional pictures. The evolution of business. Why pay for it when you can get it for free?
But I have other clients that are in my main audience that could really take advantage of the tagging, so my strategy is to copy an album to my fb page in an album with only a very small size like tiny or thumbnail. I'm thinking these should show up fine in the gallery view since fb auto-resizes everything, and then when someone attempts to pull up the full image, they'll see the thumbnail with a link to the image in a SM gallery. The images can still be tagged, but they're worthless to steal for anything except to make avatars and profile pics. At this point, I'd write off the images that are already on there as a lesson learned. Be sure your SM is locked down with watermarks, right-click, and size limited to Medium. Then make sure you have the share button and fb like buttons enabled to make it easy for them to share an image without copying.
When someone doesn't support you, you need to burn the bridge. Lasting business relationships are built on win-win scenarios, and if these guys are abusing you, let them go.
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