Yet another ask for help on Basketball pictures

Zone99 · May 5, 2010

I'm looking for a few suggestions on shooting basketball games. I've read through a number of the threads here on them and I've been trying some of the suggestions but I can't seem to connect the dots.

Now, I'm not really looking for tips on capturing the action or composition. That'll come. I'm trying to figure out how to correctly use the equipment I have.

First, I'm not using a flash. I've found that the flash is too harsh and bouncing it off a wall isn't the best since it adds a bit of the color cast of the cushions on the wall to the picture. And, well, I'm not really good at it!

Second, the equipment I use: Nikon D300 w/Nikon 80-200 2.8.

I've tried a couple of different ISO settings, 3200 and 1600 but found that 3200 just is way too grainy (which I expected but not quite to the extent I got).

I also tried WB but it's clear I have a lot to still learn there. Both gyms I was in had flourescent lighting but one had a lot more natural light than flourescent light.

So, what did I do wrong? What do I have to change?

The first three are from Gym #1 with very little natural light (all flourescent). ISO 3200 @ f2.8. I was getting shutter speeds between 1/100 and 1/250 and that's about the best I could get. I reasoned from these to stay AWAY from ISO3200. It just doesn't work.

How does anyone get good pictures in a sport at ISO3200. The grain kills any sharpness and kills any ability to make more than a 4x6 picture.

The second three are from Gym #2. More natural light and ISO1600 @f2.8. I actually set everything manually and tried to get an extra stop to get better shutter speed.

Here are some examples and thoughts appreciated.:

1. Gym #1

2. Gym #1

3. Gym #1 (believe it or not, they were up by 20...not sure what the coach was upset about!

4. Gym #2

5. Gym #2

6. Gym #2 - and no, the referees did not catch this. No foul!

Thanks!

donek · May 7, 2010

The D300 with an f2.8 lens under natural lights is going to be tough. You could go with some noise reduction software on your ISO 3200 but you'll loose some sharpness. Based on what I see, I'd say your White Balance is your biggest problem. A lot of people swear by using an expo disc. I have one, but it hasn't gone with me in years. The D300 has a fairly accurate display. Use it to check white balance yourself. I usually dial in a kelvin value. I know that sounds diffiuclt, but it's really very easy. Take a test shot at some randon Kelvin value and look at the image. It's likely to be off, so change the kelvin value dramatically and take another shot. If the first one was too blue and the second is too red, then your goal is somewhere in the middle. Keep tinkering until the white jerseys look white, or the skin tones look natural, or the gym colors look the same on the display as they look to your eye. Spend 5 minutes playing with it when you start, and you'll be happy you did. Look critically at your images when you get home. If the colors look good, you're fine. If they are off, then adjust accordingly next time you are at the same gym. You'll get good at judging WB on your display very quickly and find it to be the most accurate method of setting things up.

The other nit pick I have for now is your images are tilted. Look at the vertical lines in the background. Rotate you images in post to ensure they are vertical.

Zone99 · May 7, 2010

donek wrote: »

The D300 with an f2.8 lens under natural lights is going to be tough. You could go with some noise reduction software on your ISO 3200 but you'll loose some sharpness. Based on what I see, I'd say your White Balance is your biggest problem. A lot of people swear by using an expo disc. I have one, but it hasn't gone with me in years. The D300 has a fairly accurate display. Use it to check white balance yourself. I usually dial in a kelvin value. I know that sounds diffiuclt, but it's really very easy. Take a test shot at some randon Kelvin value and look at the image. It's likely to be off, so change the kelvin value dramatically and take another shot. If the first one was too blue and the second is too red, then your goal is somewhere in the middle. Keep tinkering until the white jerseys look white, or the skin tones look natural, or the gym colors look the same on the display as they look to your eye. Spend 5 minutes playing with it when you start, and you'll be happy you did. Look critically at your images when you get home. If the colors look good, you're fine. If they are off, then adjust accordingly next time you are at the same gym. You'll get good at judging WB on your display very quickly and find it to be the most accurate method of setting things up.

The other nit pick I have for now is your images are tilted. Look at the vertical lines in the background. Rotate you images in post to ensure they are vertical.

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give that a shot this weekend and see what happens.

I plan on doing a bit of post processing on these. I've gotten very good at quickly changing tilted images!!

Thanks again!

Qarik · May 7, 2010

1st of all can you post much larger shots of ISO3200? I don't see the noise you mention with the smaller sizes. As far white balance..is there some reason that prevents you from shooting in RAW?

jimqjr · May 10, 2010

Sorry to tell you but a shutter speed of 100 is not going to stop action if that is your goal. 1/500 is minimum you will find the closer you get to 1/1000th of a second the better your photos will be. You will need to make your own decisions on how to get the faster shutter speed. You can use a larger f/stop like f/1.4 (I realize your lens won't get you there) or you can use higher iso.
You need to use the high iso and a program like noise ninja. Use center point of focus. White balance it is important unless you like to guess. Then you need to determine the distances that you can get with your lens if you want a sharp picture. Just because you have a long lens does not mean you have a large sweet spot if you find that spot in the lens and that spot on the court your pictures will be where you want them. Sorry, I shoot Canon but the concepts are the same. For Basketball I use a 50 1.2 and shoot at 1.6 2500 iso and get 1/1000th sit under or near the basket and shoot within the 3 point line further then that is typically an unclear shot. There is a lot to the distance thing for a great shot and without the light you need to make sacrifices. Max preps in our area uses lighting to stop the action yet when I look at their pics there are few under the basket where most of the action is. When they get one its good (lots of light). I had the opportunity to shot boys basketball in an NBA arena and with their lighting my shots were even better. Just remember it takes time to figure out what a great picture for you is.
If you are good at the end of a season you will be better next. Also get in some extra games by shooting the boys it will add some excitement and make your girls shots better. I started out like everyone else have struggled and now shoot for our local paper not my real job but the kids love to see themselves in the paper and as long as my daughter is playing it is fun to get the faces in print.

Zone99 · May 13, 2010

bbal pics

Qarik wrote: »

1st of all can you post much larger shots of ISO3200? I don't see the noise you mention with the smaller sizes. As far white balance..is there some reason that prevents you from shooting in RAW?

Well, take your eye off the ball for a second (no pun intended) and you find more responses than you thought!

Thanks for replying.

Here's a link to the gallery:

http://zone99.smugmug.com/Sports/AAU/12070579_KZL7W#857264399_WMCti

Feel free to look at any of the first few pics at their original size. You'll see what I mean about noise.

And these were taken in RAW mode. I definitely need more practice with white balance.

Zone99 · May 13, 2010

jimqjr wrote: »

Sorry to tell you but a shutter speed of 100 is not going to stop action if that is your goal.

So, completely stopping action was not really my goal for this. It was more trying to understand the lighting conditions, white balance and how to effectively use what I had for good exposure.

I would have been fine if they were all slightly blurry if I felt the exposure was right for the situation. I can work on stopping the action later.

I'll google the noise ninja thing you mentioned and thanks for the suggestions on distance. I'll check into those as well.

Basketball photography isn't my first choice or strong point. I usually do this for entertainment and interest and so that I can have some shots to share with parents.

I'll take a soccer game to shoot over basketball any day!

Qarik · May 13, 2010

okay I see the noise now. IS03200 is going to be an issue on the D300. If you are already exposing properly in camera with max aperture 2.8 then I am afriad there is nothing really you can do about the noise except post processing. I am afraid you have reached your HW limit under those conditions. That said the noise is not entirley objectionable until you get to larger viewing sizes.

wrt the white balance since you are shooting RAW .. just tweak it in post? Their is a red/orange cast to the 1st set. Shoot a grey card if you are having trouble getting the look you want.

jimqjr · May 16, 2010

White balance is easy - to start out just take a picture of a white sheet of paper filling the view finder. Read the manual there are probably 3 steps.

Zone99 · May 17, 2010

jimqjr wrote: »

White balance is easy - to start out just take a picture of a white sheet of paper filling the view finder. Read the manual there are probably 3 steps.

What?! Read the manual....? Aw man....:D

Will do.

White balance and Histograms. Two things that escape my mind more than my anniversary and my wife's birthday.

jonh68 · May 17, 2010

jimqjr wrote: »

White balance is easy - to start out just take a picture of a white sheet of paper filling the view finder. Read the manual there are probably 3 steps.

Under cycling lights, taking a custom white balance isn't going to help as much as you think. You will get one that looks good, and 2 that look bad.

Most will use a slow shuterspeed 1/60 to 1/30 to take the WB shot so that it has a chance to average the cycles. Even then, you are going to have color shifts.

The easiest way I have found to adjust for color shifts is to use the skin tone application in elements instead of the white droper tool. These kind of adjustments can be done shooting jpg as well as RAW.

Homebrew · May 17, 2010

It's a Challenge
I've been at it for 3 seasons and I FINALLY got a "keeper" w/o much editing on his last game of his senior year! (yippie)

I have a entry level Canon XS and splurged for a 80MM 1.8 prime.

Got the advise from another forum...it took some getting use to but I've gotten use to not being able to zoom..

I usually run auto WB.

2.0 f/stop
shutter at 1/600 or 1/800
ISO 1600 (max on my camera)

I usually get some good lighting...BUT some gyms are so bad I leave my camera at home at actually watch the game..............other gyms, just seem to work perfect. When you look at your work at home it makes me high five my wife cause it is just so darn good w/ good lighting. The flooring does make a difference also, yellow vs. new finish....

Sorry I'm not giving you much advice other than be patient, maybe try a low f/stop prime....if you can get under the basket it is good for foul line extended. can be tight on rebounding photos...

It's probably not as much you as it is the gym lighting.

Yet another ask for help on Basketball pictures

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