'Mood' lighting muslin's...

D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
edited May 12, 2010 in Technique
I landed a gig that involves capturing ~20 different products for one client. The Boss wants detailed shots, as well as "artistic" shots of each.

For some of the artsy,,,, I want to partially light a black muslin (just sections of), using gel's. The problem I'm running into, is; as the gelled light falls-off, it does weird and not so wonderful things - On the monitor (LaCie) it looked like banding (sort of, but splotchy) but it does show itself on prints, too.

- I've used honey-combs, relefecto dishes and umby's that were strategically placed, and nadda - problem persists.

- I'm shootin' the subject matter @ f5.6 - f8 and am selecting the gel's for the colour I'm wanting and am bombing the muslin using these same values.

- I'm wanting a nice smoooooth grad of light for these shots. Shots that'll be used for both web and print.

- I've cleaned up a couple in post but would HIGHLY prefer this to be done 'in camera'.


Anyone got some insights for me??? I'm completely exhausted in my efforts AND am at the wire for showing some work to the client.

Humbly yours,
Thanks.

Comments

  • JohnBiggsJohnBiggs Registered Users Posts: 841 Major grins
    edited May 10, 2010
    All I can think of is the light is getting noisy because it is too dark.
    Canon Gear: 5D MkII, 30D, 85 1.2 L, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 17-40mm f4 L, 50 1.4, 580EX, 2x 580EXII, Canon 1.4x TC, 300 f4 IS L, 100mm 2.8 Macro, 100-400 IS L
    Other Gear: Olympus E-PL1, Pan 20 1.7, Fuji 3D Camera, Lensbaby 2.0, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Alien Bees lighting, CyberSyncs, Domke, HONL, FlipIt.
    ~ Gear Pictures
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 10, 2010
    JohnBiggs wrote: »
    All I can think of is the light is getting noisy because it is too dark.

    You mean the dark, as in the values of the fall-off???

    If so, then the fix 'should be', metering for it and cranking up the power of the light - I'll give it a try today, see what happens.


    Thanks for playing. mwink.gif
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 10, 2010
    Here's an example of what I'm doing;


    fullsize.jpg


    For this image, I used a honeycomb and metered the BG light @ f8. The sub was metered for 5.6 and a bit. Exposer was set to F5.6.

    While this has turned out better (somewhat) than my earlier attempts, it still has some issues within the gelled/coloured light.

    headscratch.gif


    Forgive the softness; for some reason it loaded larger than the 650 pix that I resized it to.
  • JohnBiggsJohnBiggs Registered Users Posts: 841 Major grins
    edited May 11, 2010
    I'm not sure I see any banding. splotches can be inconsistencies in the fabric/dyes that show up under certain lighting conditions.
    Canon Gear: 5D MkII, 30D, 85 1.2 L, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 17-40mm f4 L, 50 1.4, 580EX, 2x 580EXII, Canon 1.4x TC, 300 f4 IS L, 100mm 2.8 Macro, 100-400 IS L
    Other Gear: Olympus E-PL1, Pan 20 1.7, Fuji 3D Camera, Lensbaby 2.0, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Alien Bees lighting, CyberSyncs, Domke, HONL, FlipIt.
    ~ Gear Pictures
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,934 moderator
    edited May 11, 2010
    If you are trying to color the background with a gel, you want less power, not more mwink.gif

    I suppose the other thing you could do is use a lighter background, set the camera to a stop or so under exposed then add the light back in--lower power on the gel'ed light.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 11, 2010
    JohnBiggs wrote: »
    I'm not sure I see any banding. splotches can be inconsistencies in the fabric/dyes that show up under certain lighting conditions.

    $#%#. My Bad; This shot has been edited - I made a selection on the BG and did some levels adjustments. IIRC I bumped the black up 5 notches and ~may~ have tweaked the mids as well.... All thi extra work is a PITA.

    I don't have the images on hand, right now but will in a couple hrs. I'll re-post a better (or should I say; worse) SOC, then.
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 11, 2010
    ian408 wrote: »
    If you are trying to color the background with a gel, you want less power, not more mwink.gif

    I suppose the other thing you could do is use a lighter background, set the camera to a stop or so under exposed then add the light back in--lower power on the gel'ed light.

    I have to incorporated the black BG on this shoot. Its a request. I have a molted, mid-toned gray that I use and light a lot. And I must say, it has been much friendlier. So much so, I'm looking forward in getting it back up. mwink.gif

    WTS, I can easily get a 2 stop difference between the kicker and main, likely more, if wanting. When I get back in, I'll set-up for a 2 stop diff and see where it goes.

    Stay tuned. :D
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,934 moderator
    edited May 11, 2010
    D'Buggs wrote: »
    I have to incorporated the black BG on this shoot. Its a request. I have a molted, mid-toned gray that I use and light a lot. And I must say, it has been much friendlier. So much so, I'm looking forward in getting it back up. mwink.gif

    WTS, I can easily get a 2 stop difference between the kicker and main, likely more, if wanting. When I get back in, I'll set-up for a 2 stop diff and see where it goes.

    Stay tuned. :D

    They want black. No problem. Make your camera exposure shoot a black background. Then build the light on your subject accordingly. It's all good thumb.gif
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 11, 2010
    ian408 wrote: »
    They want black. No problem. Make your camera exposure shoot a black background. Then build the light on your subject accordingly. It's all good thumb.gif

    Tis what I'm doing - If I were to turn off the kicker, everything, except for the deer, would be absolute black.

    BUT!!! I think I'm working the kinks out! Thinking of how I edited the earlier image (I basicaly KILLED a lot of the fall-off), got me thinking; "lets just do that with the lighing". IOW, get more precise with it and tighten up on the values of the spill. mwink.gif

    So this time 'round I'm shooting the sub @ 5.6 and popping the kicker at the same value but being careful not to let the spill that's caught in frame, dropping below f4, or so.

    I've only just dropped the camera now but while tethered, the imagery is looking MUCH better. Once I wring it, I'll post an example.
  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,934 moderator
    edited May 11, 2010
    One way to think about flash is "shutter controls ambient and aperture controls flash". The idea being the longer the shutter is open, the more ambient light gets to the sensor. To make the wall black, increase the shutter speed. If you want more or less flash, open up or close down the aperture.

    Hope that's helpful.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 12, 2010
    ian408 wrote: »
    One way to think about flash is "shutter controls ambient and aperture controls flash". The idea being the longer the shutter is open, the more ambient light gets to the sensor. To make the wall black, increase the shutter speed. If you want more or less flash, open up or close down the aperture.

    Hope that's helpful.

    OK, I get it. You're still commenting on switching to grey. I however, am not.

    This shoot is going to encompass about 20 different subjects and I'll be needing ALL the variety I can get. My grey is molted/patterned and the last thing I want is it to deliver a pile of images that have the same BG, even if they are done in different tones and colours.

    Not to worry, though, it WILL be coming out and it WILL be abused! I also will be doing some HK presentations with it (the grey) AND a pure white as well. mwink.gif

    Until then, I need to stick with this PITA, haunts me till I die, black one. :grim


    It just strikes me odd that I can bomb-n-change the entire scene with evenly coloured light of my choosing (literally). But when it comes time for me to get 'finicky', it bites back like a mad wild boar (and that's pretty nasty). :bash
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,703 moderator
    edited May 12, 2010
    If you are truly getting banding, because the tones are so dark, try adding a bit of Gaussian noise to the areas in Photoshop. The banding will disappear with the addition of just a small bit of noise.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • D'BuggsD'Buggs Registered Users Posts: 958 Major grins
    edited May 12, 2010
    pathfinder wrote: »
    If you are truly getting banding, because the tones are so dark, try adding a bit of Gaussian noise to the areas in Photoshop. The banding will disappear with the addition of just a small bit of noise.

    I'm under the impression that banding is a display/monitor issue. This stuff shows up on print, as well. headscratch.gif


    ***EDIT***

    This just in!
    It would appear that my problem was two-fold.

    I have muslin issues AND I have what appears to be banding (just did the noise trick). So I guess there's no "in camera" fix for me and that I'm a slave to photoshop... yeah, another two step part to add in my work flow.
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