Portrait Lighting: Help! :-)

LeeHowell

I'm wondering if someone could solve a mystery for me...I'm new to the whole studio lighting thing, so please bare with me. I'm testing for some portraits I'll be doing for our office staff and I seem to be having some issues...

Each time I fire a test shot, about 3 out of 5 shots, the flash does not fill the exposure - Maybe it's firing during the pre-flash? But I don't understand why 2 out of the 5 will expose the shot properly and I get the effect I'm going after? I've tried waiting different periods of time between exposures to see if recharge rates had anything to do with it, but the red lights come on 1-2 seconds after firing, so I'm thinking that's not the issue.

I've got some info below to help answer the techy side of things...Could it be the el-cheapo flash trigger I'm using just not firing properly?

Canon 30D
Manual Mode, 1/100 @ f/5.6, ISO 200
Cactus V4 Transmitter
70-200mm f.4 L

Master:
Camera right, sitter's left
580EX II, Manual Mode
Cactus V4 Receiver
1/2
105mm
shoot-through umbrella

Slave:
Camera left, sitter's right
Sigma EF-500 DG Super, Manual slave mode
1/2
105mm
shoot-through umbrella


*Edit to add* I'll try to update later with some sample shots of correct fires and misfires :-)

Scott_Quier

Yeah, without sample photos, this will be nearly impossible to diagnose. Without seeing such, there's only two things that come to mind:

1. You may be waiting for the re-charge to light on one of the flashes, but it's not been long enough for both flashes
2. Your triggers aren't getting the signal (pun intended ) so it's not tripping the flash(es).

I'll re-visit this when I see samples. Hope I can help.

LeeHowell

Thanks Scott! I'll post some samples ASAP...

As far as power goes, I'm using freshly charged Eneloop AAs...580EX II is being powered by the Canon CP-E4.

Mitchell

LeeHowell wrote: »

Thanks Scott! I'll post some samples ASAP...

As far as power goes, I'm using freshly charged Eneloop AAs...580EX II is being powered by the Canon CP-E4.

Even with freshly charged batteries, you still need to wait for them to charge the capacitor in your flash. I suspect, as Scott suggested, you are not waiting long enough between your shots to fully charge your flashes. They are either not firing or firing at only partial power.

When I use my Nikon flashes off camera like you describe, I set them to emit an audible beep when the flash fires and then when it is fully charged and ready to refire. Can you do that with your Canon gear?

In the end, if you need rapid recycle time, there is no substitute for real studio strobes.

divamum

Have you tried using your 580exII in the shoe as the master and dispensing with the radio triggers altogether? Even if that's not the setup you want, it would at least let you know if it's a flash issue or a trigger issue.

LeeHowell

Mitchell wrote: »

When I use my Nikon flashes off camera like you describe, I set them to emit an audible beep when the flash fires and then when it is fully charged and ready to refire. Can you do that with your Canon gear?

Canon doesn't offer that option - Wish they did though! Nikon really has the upper hand on the speedlite studio style lighting...For Canon (and Sigma), a red indicator light will glow when the flash is fully recycled and ready to fire. The thing that confuses me though is that for each test exposure, I've made sure I saw that red light on both units before firing.

divamum wrote:

Have you tried using your 580exII in the shoe as the master and dispensing with the radio triggers altogether? Even if that's not the setup you want, it would at least let you know if it's a flash issue or a trigger issue.

I was thinking about giving that a shot, if all else fails...Good idea :-)

I've fired some test shots just pointing the lens at my two lights though, and I see them both firing in the frame in my exposure. This was on a separate occasion, but it was the same setup...I'm not sure if that's a "sure-fire" professional method of testing your lighting setup, but those were taken hand-held and at a closer distance. Maybe the radio frequency on these cheap-o triggers are poor.

Thanks for the advice so far though everyone...It may take me until this afternoon to get some example shots up, and then maybe you all can better diagnose my lighting bugs

LeeHowell

Alrighty....So I've got some sample shots here...Setup is as it was described above.

This is me, testing - That's my frustrated smile...Obviously I didn't comb my hair this morning :-P



My first victim, er, subject...



Luckily, casualties were limited to one...Tomorrow should be a few more for me to experiment on.

Setup/Location Shots:








Some of my thoughts....

(A) I think somehow a combination of the recycle and the trigger signal issues were to blame for the misfires...I'd post examples of those, but imagine the color black and there you go...

(B) I've got a fun little background garden area to play with...Am I focused too much on testing my lighting setup out and missing the better shot?

(C) On that same note, check out the groovy 80s style glass cube wall...How cool of a background would that make?! Or would my novice lighting experience just prove to fudge that photo-op even more? I was thinking I could put a blue-gelled flash on the back side and hit them from the front with a warm-tone gelled flash. Might go try some test shots later, after I get some actual "work" work done.

I appreciate the feedback - Feel free to tell me I'm a clutz or to just stop this silly attempt all together :-P I'm very grateful that I work with some wonderful and patient participants :-)

Scott_Quier

I'm a bit confused. Are these your successful shots or are they examples of failures? It appears here that both flashes fired.

Though I'm not quite sure what look/lighting you were going for, I'm not a fan of this lighting effect. The shadow through the center of the face? If that's what you were going for, ignore the rest of this post. If not, continue reading....

I might suggest you take a quick look at some lighting tutorials and become familar with the classics (Loop lighting, Rembrandt lighting, cross lighting, paramount, short lighting, and broad lighting).

LeeHowell

Thanks Scott - Yeah, I'm a complete newb at this...So any advice is much recommended. The photos above would be considered "successful" only in the fact that the exposure was decent.

I've looked around a bit on lighting setups, but could certainly stand to do a lot more homework.

In this particular setup, I was just trying to get the lighting even on both sides...But I'm sure another method would benefit me more here. IS there a name for what I've done, or is it simply a haphazard arrangement? :-P

I see what you mean about the shadow running through the center here though - There's no fill light in the front...A reflector under the face could possibly resolve that?

Maybe until I play with the various lighting setups some more, I should stick with the 580EX on-camera and trigger the Sigma for effect.

Gary752

Also, with your setup as displayed above, it might be possible that your slave is not getting a good signal from the master flash, being both are shooting through umbrellas. Possible solution would be to use another receiver on the slave flash. Just a thought.

GaryB

LeeHowell

BroPhoto wrote: »

Also, with your setup as displayed above, it might be possible that your slave is not getting a good signal from the master flash, being both are shooting through umbrellas. Possible solution would be to use another receiver on the slave flash. Just a thought.

GaryB

That makes good sense...Thanks!

LeeHowell

OK - Take 2...My attempt at broad lighting (only have two lights to work with at the moment)

Went on the other side of the glass wall. 580EX II attached to camera and triggering the Sigma...I don't have a reflector at the moment, so I'm using the other umbrella as a make-shift.





Not crazy about the b/g and that big nasty flash glare...But I guess I could try the same approach in the other area...Just farting around here, but figured I'd share. Thanks :-)

Art Scott

personally I think your umbrellas are way to far away from subject.....I know it sounds crazy but the closer the light the softer it is........also move the umbrellas a foot or 2 ahead of your subject and then turn the center of the umbrella towards the subject......just my suggestion and many others will not agree but experiment with it and se what YOU like.......most important is get that light close to subject....also the close to the umbrellas the light source is the softer the light.

LeeHowell

Art Scott wrote: »

personally I think your umbrellas are way to far away from subject.....I know it sounds crazy but the closer the light the softer it is........also move the umbrellas a foot or 2 ahead of your subject and then turn the center of the umbrella towards the subject......just my suggestion and many others will not agree but experiment with it and se what YOU like.......most important is get that light close to subject....also the close to the umbrellas the light source is the softer the light.

Awesome! Thank you so much - Can't wait to try that out! :-)

Mitchell

Lee, why are you making this so hard on yourself?

Start with one light. Shoot it through your umbrella just to one side of your camera slightly above your subject. Try to get the catchlight at 10 or 2 o'clock. Get the umbrella as close as you can to your subject without being in view.

Voila! Nice and easy portrait. Want to make it more difficult? Try a reflector on the other side for some fill.

When you have mastered this, then add a second flash for some more challenging fun.

LeeHowell

Mitchell wrote: »

Lee, why are you making this so hard on yourself?

Haha......Good question...

That's a good point...Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a bit. I bought these cheap triggers to practice on before I invest in another 580 and PWs/RPs, so I might as well get the basics down with one light before I start putting extra ones "in the picture"

Art Scott

so to strobists.com and invest in some really worth while reading.......a glamour photog I mention a lot, Peter Gowland, shot literally thousands of frames with one silver umbrella.....it was like 12 feet across and was mounted dead center of his studio on swing arm so it be rotated towards the background of choice.......................his glamour books used on amazon are a very worth while read also.....

The gist is to make it as simple as possible to get the effect you want.....another great read is Joe McNally's HotShoe Diaries......great info....

Scott_Quier

LeeHowell wrote: »

Thanks Scott - Yeah, I'm a complete newb at this...So any advice is much recommended.

Advice - Read. Art, Mitchell (to a lesser extent), and I have tried to get you to put your camera down for a couple of minutes and read/think about what you are attempting to do. Think about where the light is and the path that it takes between the source and the subject. Learn about, study, and understand the Inverse Square law of light propogation. Between this and understanding that light will only travel in a straight line (on this planet it does) will explain more than 90% of how to place your lights, why you want the light closer to to your subject, and why there's a trade-off with moving your light closer to your subject (and what that trade-off is - study, you'll figure it out).

Rather than just "farting around", read up on the various classic lighting configurations (see my first post in this thread) and understand why the lighting configurations are producing the results they are. Getting a good foundation will vastly improve your chances whey you start getting creative.

You have a good start .... I just think you need to put a bit more time into the academics and than you'll be "hitting on all eight cylinders!"

LeeHowell

Thanks Scott, Art...I respect that and appreciate the advice. I still need to hold firm to my commitment to do these shots, and it'll give me a chance to learn/grow. I most certainly would not be getting better results without everyone's input!

Art - Great book! Love it...I've been reading it over again and again these past few months...And I did move those lights closer to my subject, and the unit closer to the umbrella and got some much better results - Thanks!

I appreciate the crash course you all have given me to assist in getting these a little better and I'm certainly intrigued now to actually do the homework and get my hands dirty ;-)

adbsgicom

Art Scott wrote: »

personally I think your umbrellas are way to far away from subject.....I know it sounds crazy but the closer the light the softer it is........also move the umbrellas a foot or 2 ahead of your subject and then turn the center of the umbrella towards the subject......just my suggestion and many others will not agree but experiment with it and se what YOU like.......most important is get that light close to subject....also the close to the umbrellas the light source is the softer the light.

Art, I'm missing something in the last statement here. I thought that if you move the umbrella close to the light source, the amount of the umbrella illuminated will drop and the umbrella becomes smaller (effectively) and thus harder. If you move the light too far away, you end up shooting light around the umbrella, and in the case of shoot-through, you have some spill coming forward that isn't diffuse. Am I misreading your last comment, or misunderstanding something about the relationship between the umbrella and the light source. I fully understand that having the umbrella close to the subject makes the light softer since you have a larger light source relative to the subject that way. Thanks.

Scott_Quier

adbsgicom wrote: »

Art, I'm missing something in the last statement here. I thought that if you move the umbrella close to the light source, the amount of the umbrella illuminated will drop and the umbrella becomes smaller (effectively) and thus harder. If you move the light too far away, you end up shooting light around the umbrella, and in the case of shoot-through, you have some spill coming forward that isn't diffuse. Am I misreading your last comment, or misunderstanding something about the relationship between the umbrella and the light source. I fully understand that having the umbrella close to the subject makes the light softer since you have a larger light source relative to the subject that way. Thanks.

Your understanding of the use of an umbrella is correct. I suspect Art just got ahead of himself in the typing.

adbsgicom

Scott_Quier wrote: »

Your understanding of the use of an umbrella is correct. I suspect Art just got ahead of himself in the typing.

Thanks.

Qarik

I haven't read any of other posts but umbrellas are too far away and they are too small. This shows up as harsh lighting as in your shots. I usually have my umbrella just out of camera view like 12 inches. and it a 42 in umbrella.

You want the largest surface area light source you can afford. alos make sure your flash is set to the minimum zoom and is properly aimed at your umbrella to get maximum coverage