Recurring theme - Rent-a-cop hassles

Higgmeister · August 18, 2005

I have to say that so far, the most I've gotten was dirty looks, but noone has hassled me for taking structural shots...yet. I was told not to photograph the subject of an accident by the fire department because of confidentiality reasons. What was funny is that I was more interested in the interaction of the three public service departments working together than of some drunk passed out. I obliged even though it didn't conflict with what I was shooting.
The link has a cool photo along with a story all to familiar nowadays.

Thought I'd share it with you all,
Chris

http://www.deviantart.com/print/104037/

justinunger · August 18, 2005

Higgmeister wrote:

I have to say that so far, the most I've gotten was dirty looks, but noone has hassled me for taking structural shots...yet. I was told not to photograph the subject of an accident by the fire department because of confidentiality reasons. What was funny is that I was more interested in the interaction of the three public service departments working together than of some drunk passed out. I obliged even though it didn't conflict with what I was shooting.
The link has a cool photo along with a story all to familiar nowadays.

Thought I'd share it with you all,
Chris

http://www.deviantart.com/print/104037/

I don't think the Fire Department has any right to ask you not to take photos. If the scene of the accident is on public property (A public road, a sidewalk, park, etc) you have every right to take photographs.

If someone has passed out in their home, and you're taking pictures of the paramedics thru an open window with a telephoto lens, then you could be in violation of the law, as people have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" when they're in their own home.

This link may have already been shared here, but it's always worth posting again.

The photographer's right:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Higgmeister · August 18, 2005

Just had an idea
If I do get approached and I want the shot, I think I'll ask for the guards authority to act on behalf of the property's owner. Who knows, maybe the guard is a terrorist and just wants us out of there so they can blow up the facility. Rent-a-cops don't have arrest authority here in Nevada so all they can do is call the cops.

Chris

justinunger · August 18, 2005

Higgmeister wrote:

If I do get approached and I want the shot, I think I'll ask for the guards authority to act on behalf of the property's owner. Who knows, maybe the guard is a terrorist and just wants us out of there so they can blow up the facility. Rent-a-cops don't have arrest authority here in Nevada so all they can do is call the cops.

Chris

Although, if it is indeed private property, when the cops do show up, they could theoretically cite you for tresspassing, although I highly doubt they would do so. They'll probably just ask you to leave.

Higgmeister · August 18, 2005

justinunger wrote:

I don't think the Fire Department has any right to ask you not to take photos. If the scene of the accident is on public property (A public road, a sidewalk, park, etc) you have every right to take photographs.

The photographer's right:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

And no doubt I could have pushed the issue if I had wanted a shot of the drunk. When I explained what I was interested in, he turned away and went back to work. He was quite pleasant about it. I could have pushed the fact that it might be newsworthy since the original appearance was that he was hit by a train. No gore, just passed out by the railroad tracks in downtown Reno. But again, I wasn't interested in the drunk so no conflicts.

Thanks for the link again is it's a good read.

Chris

Higgmeister · August 18, 2005

justinunger wrote:

Although, if it is indeed private property, when the cops do show up, they could theoretically cite you for tresspassing, although I highly doubt they would do so. They'll probably just ask you to leave.

Unless the laws have changed around here since I used to work as a Casino Security guard (more authority than a rent-a-cop due to federal gaming laws), you need to be notified first that you are trespassing from an authorized agent of the owner. We would have to officially 86 someone before we could have them arrested for trespassing on their second offense. Again, I'd only do this if I really wanted the shot. It's a stalling technique because the cops probably wouldn't show up for an hour or so. Rent-a-cops actually have very little authority. Most people comply thinking they have more authority than they really have. Unfortunately, the rent-a-cops think they are police and have a tendency (generalization) to overstep their authority.

Just my .02 on this subject,
Chris

For me, a "No Trespassing" sign is an invitation to see what is so interesting on the other side:D.

JimM · August 18, 2005

Absolutely amazing photo!!!

Mind if I post it and the story here:

Artist's Comments

It started out as just an image.

The parking structure had been visually enticing to the Photographer, with rectangular beams of light emptying into the night fog. It wasn’t typical fog, rather an icy mist suspended in the air, searching for surfaces to crystallize on. His gloves were cut off at the ends to allow his fingers to manipulate his equipment, and this is where the cold began its attack on him. Still, he proceeded slowly, approaching the structure from a distance, stopping every so often to check the scene through his viewfinder.

Finally, he reached what he felt was the correct spot. Now he had the proper intimacy with the building. It was just him and his subject, the cold became a footnote to his mind and the city behind him was a backstage area. It was just him and his subject…and the Security Guard pulling up alongside in a minivan.

The Photographer glanced over briefly as the Guard stepped out of his vehicle. Then he turned back to his camera. He knew he couldn’t ignore the Guard, so in his friendliest voice he offered a greeting as he adjusted the settings for the exposure. “Hi there.”

“Mind telling me what you’re doing?” was the response. The Photographer was a little taken aback by the Guard’s incredulous tone, as if some kind of personal injury had been done to him. It wasn’t necessary to look over at the Guard to know that he was standing with his hands on his hips in his best authoritative posture.

“Taking a photo.” He pressed the button and heard the slap of the camera mirror flipping up, and then the click of the shutter. The Photographer had the next thirty seconds to deal with the Guard until the exposure finished.

“Taking a photo?” The Guard spat the words as if the idea was repulsive. “For who?”

The Photographer stared at him dumbfounded, wondering how to answer such a ridiculous question. “For me,” he finally said.

“Well, I don’t know if you know this, but there’s been a problem with terrorists lately, and I’m not saying you are one, but we can’t have you taking pictures here.”

Perhaps being reasonable would be better than being confrontational. “Well, I understand, and if you’d like, I’d be happy to show you my identification.” The Photographer had heard his shutter click and knew that his exposure was done; still it wouldn’t hurt him to be civil, and perhaps he could take another photo.

“No, for security we can’t have you taking pictures here, this is private property. You can go take pictures from across the street.”

The Photographer shook his head as he began folding up his tripod. Perhaps at some point, being confrontational is better than being reasonable. “You know, just for future reference, I highly doubt that a terrorist would take the time to set up his camera on a tripod at night and sit around for an extended period of time trying to compose his photograph.”

“Hey, I don’t know who you are,” the Guard retorted, “you could be anybody.”

“Well that’s why I offered to show you my identification, so you would know who I was.”

The Guard really didn’t like that. “Yeah, well….I think it’d just be better if you went to take your photos across the street.”

The Photographer could not help but dwell on the absurdity of the Guard’s logic. Yes, Mr. Guard, you’ve done such a good job, the building is much safer now since I would actually have to use the zoom on my lens from this side of the road. You’re so brave, Mr. Guard, you busted a long-haired hippie who was trying to subvert the American way of life, and hopefully the rent-a-cop agency will reward you with a medal of valor. You know, Mr. Guard, you must have amazing instincts, because I’m actually a wannabe terrorist who’s trying to sell pictures of parking ramps to Al-Qaeda so they can plan where to sprinkle nails so that when cars drive across them their tires will pop, and in that fashion they will eventually be able to bring the entire automotive transportation infrastructure of the U.S.A. to its knees. Of course, I have to this point failed to sell any pictures to Al-Qaeda because they said that all of the pictures I took during bright daylight hours when it’s easy to take photographs just walking by with a digicam were not artsy enough.

Of course he said none of those things at the time. What else could the Photographer do? He set up his tripod from across the street not because he really felt like taking a picture from there, but simply because he wanted to spite the guard and show him he would not be intimidated. But that wasn’t nearly enough. He wanted to spill his temper onto the night, to vehemently shine the light of reason into the miasma of authoritarianism, to declare that he would not be contained by a culture of paranoia.

Then it occurred to him. He would use his photo as a podium. He would publish it, he would write a story to go along with it. He would turn it into a focal point to express his disgust with the perpetuation of a hyper-paranoid police-state mentality. He would ask the question:

Are we going to let this happen to our society?

Andy · August 18, 2005

rent-a-cops make great subjects

Higgmeister · August 18, 2005

I see that they do; I really like the second one. My real concern is that most of these jobs are low paying, low skill set jobs with people in perceived and real authority. I'd feel much better if they received some real training, better pay and bring them into the Civil Emergency response system.

Chris

ian408 · August 19, 2005

Higgmeister wrote:

Rent-a-cops don't have arrest authority here in Nevada so all they can do is call the cops.

There is no 'citizen's arrest' in NV? Maybe he cannot detain you but if he can
convince the real police he has a case, he might be able to have you
arrested on his say so. I bet that's how the casinos get rid of the rifraf
that won't leave. Have them arrested on trespassing charges.

Ian

Higgmeister · August 19, 2005

ian408 wrote:

There is no 'citizen's arrest' in NV? Maybe he cannot detain you but if he can
convince the real police he has a case, he might be able to have you
arrested on his say so. I bet that's how the casinos get rid of the rifraf
that won't leave. Have them arrested on trespassing charges.

Ian

Bingo

. That's exactly what we did. But first, we had to remove him from the premises and have it documented at least once before the police would have them arrested for trespassing. We were authorized agents of the owner and fell under federal gaming laws with allowed us to forcibly detain people for various infractions, but only withing the confines of the casino. We had no special authority outside the doors.
I'm no lawyer and am pretty ignorant of law specifics, but yes, the guard could so a citizen's arrest. Gotta be careful there because the guard has no special arrest privileges so he/she could easily be arrested for breaking laws while trying to exact an arrest.

Again, only if I really wanted to shot would I go through such an effort.

Chris

Angelo · August 20, 2005

Higg - I had a very similar experience when a team of firemen, police and EMTs converged on a Hollywood street to administer aid to a young lady who had passed out.

When I snapped a few pictures one of the EMTs got absolutely beligerent and insulting. Make a long story short - I visited the station a few days later and received an apology from the watch commander after I explained the situation. Bottomline... as with all photos... anything you can see and take on a public street, from a public street is fair game. (Police lines excepted)

Do you love deviantart.com? I do. There is some real creative talent posting over there. They're pushing envelopes I haven't even thought of yet.

luckyrwe · August 20, 2005

Ask him what law you are breaking. I am SO TIRED of guards who want to feel big and use me as their stepping stone. No thanks brudda!

Higgmeister · August 22, 2005

Angelo wrote:

Do you love deviantart.com? I do. There is some real creative talent posting over there. They're pushing envelopes I haven't even thought of yet.

I discovered Deviantart several years ago but don't visit there all that often. Not that I don't like it, which I do, but I just forget about it from time to time. I ended up there this time because the artist I was referring too has a local gallery that I was looking up. I'm never disappointed when I visit Deviantart, I just don't go there often enough.

I'll keep your story in mind if it ever happens again. Just so happens, I got the shot I was after (not worth posting).

Chris

RSP · August 24, 2005

Working Folks have to make a living but these Security Guards get a bit out of hand at times.....suddenly,EVERYONE is a terrorist.

Bodley · August 24, 2005

Well I almost didn't post this for fear of being ostracized but here goes anyway.

People can make fun of security guards call them Rent-A-Cops whatever but they have taken a job probably for minimum pay without being provided proper training and asked to provide security to a public which does not respect them. Sure they didn't have to take this job but probably need to feed the family. Yes, they have family's too.

These guards are asked to spot potential security threats - criminals, terrorist etc... again without proper training or weaponry. Now here comes Mr./Ms. Cameraperson taking photos of their building. Not taking photos like the normal tourist, snap, snap then move on - but planned photos like they are looking for something maybe planning something. Remember, not all people share photographers interest or even understand this interest.

Sure, the guards should be polite but maybe they are leery of you They know they don't have a gun but you might. So they puff up to get the bluff in.

Let's be the bigger people, understand where they are coming from and work it out.

"Can't we all just get along"

Angelo · August 24, 2005

Bodley wrote:

Well I almost didn't post this for fear of being ostracized but here goes anyway.

People can make fun of security guards call them Rent-A-Cops whatever but they have taken a job probably for minimum pay without being provided proper training and asked to provide security to a public which does not respect them. Sure they didn't have to take this job but probably need to feed the family. Yes, they have family's too.

These guards are asked to spot potential security threats - criminals, terrorist etc... again without proper training or weaponry. Now here comes Mr./Ms. Cameraperson taking photos of their building. Not taking photos like the normal tourist, snap, snap then move on - but planned photos like they are looking for something maybe planning something. Remember, not all people share photographers interest or even understand this interest.

Sure, the guards should be polite but maybe they are leery of you They know they don't have a gun but you might. So they puff up to get the bluff in.

Let's be the bigger people, understand where they are coming from and work it out.

"Can't we all just get along"

Bodley - I think you're absolutely right. In most cases these are fair minded, hard-working individuals just trying to put food on the table and often take the bad rap for their choice of profession.

I think the discussion here is colored more by the frustration photogs are feeling these days with the heightened, albeit false sense of terrorist threats we are hammered with by the press and the political agenda of this administration.

RSP · August 25, 2005

Well said,Angelo.

Angelo wrote:

Bodley - I think you're absolutely right. In most cases these are fair minded, hard-working individuals just trying to put food on the table and often take the bad rap for their choice of profession.

I think the discussion here is colored more by the frustration photogs are feeling these days with the heightened, albeit false sense of terrorist threats we are hammered with by the press and the political agenda of this administration.