Flashes

joshhuntnm

One of my frustrations in doing weddings is the boring pics--you know line up the families and bridal party and take pics.

I have always brought in a couple of stands and external flashes for these shots.

Here is the problem, they seem to fire very intermittently. Stated more negatively, they fail quite commonly.

I am looking various solutions--pocket wizards, radio poppers, alien bees' cyber commander.

Your thoughts?

tenoverthenose

I love my pocket wizards. Quite simply, they work. I've heard great things about the AB cyber commander and also the radio poppers, but I don't have first had experience.

run_kmc

Depends on how you're using your lights.

If you're just using manual flashguns, Cybersyncs will do everything you need and nothing you don't. If you're doing anything more than that, you might want to look elsewhere.

joshhuntnm

run_kmc wrote: »

Depends on how you're using your lights.

If you're just using manual flashguns, Cybersyncs will do everything you need and nothing you don't. If you're doing anything more than that, you might want to look elsewhere.

i feel like I don't even know enough to ask an intelligent question. I am not using the manual setting on the flash. I am using TTL.

mmmatt

joshhuntnm wrote: »

One of my frustrations in doing weddings is the boring pics--you know line up the families and bridal party and take pics.

I have always brought in a couple of stands and external flashes for these shots.

Here is the problem, they seem to fire very intermittently. Stated more negatively, they fail quite commonly.

I am looking various solutions--pocket wizards, radio poppers, alien bees' cyber commander.

Your thoughts?

Josh are you using ettl on-camera flash to fire studio strobes with optical sensors? If so that doesn't fly. ETTL flash shoots out a preflash to check exposure a millisecond before the real one and the preflash fires your optical strobes and then they are not able to fire again for the real exposure.

For the record that is experience speaking... that had me real stumped for a day!

Matt

joshhuntnm

mmmatt wrote: »

Josh are you using ettl on-camera flash to fire studio strobes with optical sensors? If so that doesn't fly. ETTL flash shoots out a preflash to check exposure a millisecond before the real one and the preflash fires your optical strobes and then they are not able to fire again for the real exposure.

For the record that is experience speaking... that had me real stumped for a day!

Matt

580exii firing several 430s

thanks for the help. I am totally stumped as to why this gear doesn't work.

r3t1awr3yd

Not to sound doofish but I shoot with the ebay RF-602 trigger/receivers and have never had a failure. I have a couple of SBs that I can mount with their receivers to clamps that I bought from home depot and modded with some ¼" bolts and locking nuts. I run the flashes in manual and turn off sleep mode (since the SB600s are the ONLY flash that doesn't wake with these cheapy triggers) and fire away. You can find a million reviews online and for $100, you can't go wrong with trying. (one trigger, four hotshoe receivers, one camera trigger cable for remote camera firing, and receiver cable adapters for ¼" monostrobe inputs)

mmmatt

joshhuntnm wrote: »

580exii firing several 430s

thanks for the help. I am totally stumped as to why this gear doesn't work.

yeah you are doing it right. You are using infra red though, and that is simply light. In a big room or if the IR "eyes" can't see each other you are sunk. Invert the flash heads so that the little red plastic pieces are pointing forward if you aren't already. If there is no wall for the IR signal to bounce off of and return to the external flashes they are less dependable (like outside or middle of a big room), but the IR signal will sometimes bounce off your subject and give you what you want. I'm not sure if there is a limit to the number of flash units a 580 can trigger... if they are all on the same channel I think there is no limit but I've only ever used 2 at a time.

If you still want to continue to use ETTL flash, then your only 2 options, other than the built-in Canon IR system, are radio poppers or Pocket wizard mini T's/Flex TT5's (check my sig line). The problem with the TTL pocket wizards is that they suffer from radio interference with the 580 flash units. 550's, and I believe the 430's are immune to the issue. Even with my 580's I get them to work but it isn't ideal. I prefer the IR system indoors. All other triggers and studio strobes like Alien Bee's are going to be manual flash. Manual flash isn't difficult with a static subject. You have to meter or do a ton of chimping. Once you get it right, and your light to subject distance doesn't change, you are good to go.

Matt

joshhuntnm

mmmatt wrote: »

yeah you are doing it right. You are using infra red though, and that is simply light. In a big room or if the IR "eyes" can't see each other you are sunk. Invert the flash heads so that the little red plastic pieces are pointing forward if you aren't already. If there is no wall for the IR signal to bounce off of and return to the external flashes they are less dependable (like outside or middle of a big room), but the IR signal will sometimes bounce off your subject and give you what you want. I'm not sure if there is a limit to the number of flash units a 580 can trigger... if they are all on the same channel I think there is no limit but I've only ever used 2 at a time.

If you still want to continue to use ETTL flash, then your only 2 options, other than the built-in Canon IR system, are radio poppers or Pocket wizard mini's (check my sig line). The problem with the TTL pocket wizards is that they suffer from radio interference with the 580 flash units. 550's, and I believe the 430's are immune to the issue. Even with my 580's I get them to work but it isn't ideal. I prefer the IR system indoors. All other triggers and studio strobes like Alien Bee's are going to be manual flash. Manual flash isn't difficult with a static subject. You have to meter or do a ton of chimping. Once you get it right, and your light to subject distance doesn't change, you are good to go.

Matt

the light is starting to come on in my head

Dan7312

The 580EX's noise doesn't seem to interfer with the PocketWizard Flex's until they get to be more than 20 or 30 feet from the camera. They now include cloth shield and special base that let's you extend the distance to a lot more, but it is a bit of extra setup.

PocketWizard has setup a couple of repair places to do mod's to the 580EXII that get's rid of the interferance problem so you don't have to use the shield.

The Flex\Mini's support TTL, second curtain sync, and manage to crank out more light for high speed sync than the flash by itself does. They claim over an extra stop's worth.

If you just want to try them they currrently have a no questions asked 30-day return policy right now.

joshhuntnm wrote: »

the light is starting to come on in my head

Scott_Quier

Josh,

A couple of thoughts:

• Are you sure you are waiting long enough to allow the 430s to cycle?
  
  
• I used the MiniTT1-Canon with 580s and had zero problems. These will allow the full ETT-L functionality.
  
  
• If you're shooting in a large and/or darkly panelled room, the IR signal may not be getting through to the 430s with enough signal to correctly communicate. You're probably already doing this, but you can turn the head of the 430s toward your subjects while having the IR receiver pointed back at the 580. I've done this in very, very bright sunlight with about 85% success rate (in the sun, you just have to make sure that the IR receiver isn't blinded by the sun).

jeffreaux2

Josh,

I use ETTL for the big majority of my flash shots. I do not use a 580 as master, but rather use the STE2 to fire a single, or pair of 580s...and sometimes a third 580.

Line of sight is a must. I typically face the base...and the red window....towards the camera, and face the flash head towards the subject or area I want to light. This is more easily done with a shoot through type umbrella rather than one you are trying to bounce out of...

When using bounce umbrella configurations I usually face everything towards the subject and rely on the IR signal to bounce from STE2 to subject to flash. This can be iffy depending on the distances, but does work indoors.

I have rarely had misfires outdoors even at the distances required for full length portraits using a 70-200mm zoom. I just havent experienced any issues with that...but I tend to shoot in shade.

Problems I have encountered....

- Though things may work well in landscape orientation....switching to portrait orientation may block the ir signal with the lens barrel....especially when using a hood (on the 17-55) or a long lens (70-200). In this case a cheap flip bracket to keep the STE2 on top would probably be the ticket.

_ If you are using bounce umbrellas....a cheap fix might be to buy an extended (15 foot) off camera shoe vord to run out on the floor and aim at an angle that the flashes can "see".

-My underdstanding of the ettl solution by pocket wizards do not allow full FEC control. You lose some of the range that you would have using all canon gear. That coupled with the interference issues would lead me to the radio poppers....if I thought I HAD to have radio control. But so far...I dont.

Dan7312

There newer PocketWizards with ControlTL, the Flex and Mini, do support FEC. They also support balancing groups of lights with an STE2 or the new PocketWizard control (I forget what it's called). Here is a quick test set of photos shot at -3, 0, and +3 FEC (set on the camera) and eTTL using a Mini on the camera and a Flex on a remote 580EX.

ControlTL is supposed to extend everything on the camera flash contacts to the external flash and the do seem to do that.

jeffreaux2 wrote: »

-My underdstanding of the ettl solution by pocket wizards do not allow full FEC control.

joshhuntnm

I am trying to decide if TTL is really that important. It is quite a bit more, If I am understanding right. the pocket wizard is about $200 per device--one for the camera and one for each flash.

Something like Microsync http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/611173-REG/MicroSync__VMTRM_Shoe_Mount_Flash_Transmitter.html

Or alien beens is about a third the cost.

At first I was afraid of the idea of shooting manual, but it seems with bouncing and multiple flashes you are constantly having to crimp anyway. It is almost like shooting manual. so, it seems you could get the microsync, guess on the exposure on a test shot, then adjust. I am thinking of using these on the boring pics of a wedding so the only thing that is changing is the color/brightness of the subjects clothing. As I think about it, that would probably work better on manual.

this isn't really a question--just thinking out loud.

Scott_Quier

Something to consider .... without ETT-L, you have no HSS, the lack of which can severly limit your outdoor flash opportunities.

jeffreaux2

Dan7312 wrote: »

There newer PocketWizards with ControlTL, the Flex and Mini, do support FEC. They also support balancing groups of lights with an STE2 or the new PocketWizard control (I forget what it's called). Here is a quick test set of photos shot at -3, 0, and +3 FEC (set on the camera) and eTTL using a Mini on the camera and a Flex on a remote 580EX.

ControlTL is supposed to extend everything on the camera flash contacts to the external flash and the do seem to do that.

This does not prove that you are getting the same range of FEC that you would get using Canon's system without the PW units. Tri-Coast's review suggested that FEC was abbreviated with the PWs. It worked, but not flawlessly, and they were unable to achieve a 3 stop plus or minus range.

http://tricoastphoto.com/blog/?p=299

Maybe this is corrected with a new firmware? I have no proof of that. In fact, I pretty much wrote the PWs off after seeing them release such a flawed product....weather it was to be fixed later or not....thats just bad business in my opinion.

tenoverthenose

The PW FEC works just like Canon's - I have tested them side by side with similar results. I use the new PW's on a regular basis and they don't let me down. The simple fact that I can change flash power from my camera is worth a lot to me. Their design also allows for a lot of tricks that aren't possible with other systems (remote 2nd curtain, better HSS than Canon's, Hyper Sync, etc.).

Dan7312

I tried a test, maybe not too well controlled. Both series were shot M 1\60 F8 TTL with -3, 0, +3 and a remote 580ex. I used a Sekonic gray card and the room was dim, i.e. only the outside light the shades let in, so not completely dork.

The first series used the ST-CE ir remote and the second used PocketWizard mini\flex.

Just by eye they appear to both be producing the same dynamic flash range.

I'm not sure how the reviewers did their tests so it's hard to say what they meant about the inconsistency they found.

One diff between using the ST-CE and the mini/flex is in HSS. PocketWizard claims to get an extra stop of light out of an 570EX in this mode. If I can think of a way to measure that I'll post the results.

Dan7312

I don't the experience most of you do, but I've been trying out the kinds of things mini\flex can do and can second this obeservation.

Out side of just plain ol' TTL default settings, the only thing bad about them is the learning curve is a bit steep. You have to coordinate many settings top get things to work the way you want.

tenoverthenose wrote: »

Their design also allows for a lot of tricks that aren't possible with other systems

EOS_JD

Not sure if this has been mentioned but one of the reasons firing a flash doesn't work outdoors is where the light is too bright for the flashes optical sensor to pick up the light from the 580 (or in my case the ST-E2). When I try to get the flash to work wirelessly with the ST-E2 it works fine generally but take the unit outdoors and it's very hit or miss. The rasdio poppers get great reviews and keep ETTL and High Speed Sync which is a great bonus - but you pay for that as they are fairly expensive.

Shooting Manual is fine if your subject and camera are fairly static - chimping takes time and can be annoying to guests - especially at a wedding. Set the lights in M and no need to chimp - although one check is always useful to make sure all is ok.

donek

joshhuntnm wrote: »

I am trying to decide if TTL is really that important. It is quite a bit more, If I am understanding right. the pocket wizard is about $200 per device--one for the camera and one for each flash.

Something like Microsync http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/611173-REG/MicroSync__VMTRM_Shoe_Mount_Flash_Transmitter.html

Or alien beens is about a third the cost.

At first I was afraid of the idea of shooting manual, but it seems with bouncing and multiple flashes you are constantly having to crimp anyway. It is almost like shooting manual. so, it seems you could get the microsync, guess on the exposure on a test shot, then adjust. I am thinking of using these on the boring pics of a wedding so the only thing that is changing is the color/brightness of the subjects clothing. As I think about it, that would probably work better on manual.

this isn't really a question--just thinking out loud.

If you really don't need ttl, then the cactus or e-bay triggers are more than adequate. I've used them to light gyms for the last 2 years with no difficulty (never replaced the batteries either). The trick with them is to never buy a single receiver. Always buy the pair (transmitter and receiver). They will come with a short sync cord. If you have your SBs a significant distance from you or each other, attach an extra transmitter (via the short sync cord) to the receiver closest to you. You'll more than double your range by doing so. You can do so multiple times when lighting a large area and get tremendous coverage.

I've never used a pocket wizard or any other trigger, so can't comment precisely, but as I understand it their strength is not interfering with other photographers. It's unlikely this will be an issue for you at a wedding. I'm usually the type of person who starts cheap or small and finds out what the possibilities are before spending a lot more. In this situation, I've never needed to spend more.

JohnBiggs

Cyber syncs all the way. The flex has too many issues with 580 that by the time you get all the special rf interference blockers you have to wonder if it's worth the hassle and money.