How would you handle this...
Fstoplife
Registered Users Posts: 190 Major grins
I am not an event photographer, I want to, but I am just starting out, I am doing well with the portraits, and I want to focus on that, for now. A friend of mine asked me to do her wedding next July, I am just doing her getting ready, and the ceremony. She is getting married this August in Paris, so she's not too concerned about the second wedding here in NY. She knows this is my first event, but she loves my other stuff, so we are going to go for it! She is so easy-going I am not worried at all.
My problem is, a co-worker knows that I am trying to build my portfolio/photography business. I had mentioned the wedding to her and how I was nervous, but super excited, we spoke then it dropped. Well yesterday the co-workers comes up to me and says shes having this huge bash for her daughter, first birthday, and she wants me to take pics. I am game, again it's one of those things where there is so much going on, she just wants someone taking pics. I am very confident in my abilities. So she said I should use her as a guinea pig for the wedding, I said that's a great idea, then we got interrupted and said we would discuss more later. Well she comes up to me and says her partner loves the idea, but money was never mentioned. How do I bring this up tactfully? If it was maybe portraits before the party or whatever I would be more easy going about it, she lives a block away, I love taking photos, so it would be fine, but this is a four hour party. I feel I need to get some sort of compensation. Do you agree? Should I say, it was good practice and just go for it, or do I potentially put the relationship on the line, and maybe future jobs and bring up money. I am not good at these things
TIA
My problem is, a co-worker knows that I am trying to build my portfolio/photography business. I had mentioned the wedding to her and how I was nervous, but super excited, we spoke then it dropped. Well yesterday the co-workers comes up to me and says shes having this huge bash for her daughter, first birthday, and she wants me to take pics. I am game, again it's one of those things where there is so much going on, she just wants someone taking pics. I am very confident in my abilities. So she said I should use her as a guinea pig for the wedding, I said that's a great idea, then we got interrupted and said we would discuss more later. Well she comes up to me and says her partner loves the idea, but money was never mentioned. How do I bring this up tactfully? If it was maybe portraits before the party or whatever I would be more easy going about it, she lives a block away, I love taking photos, so it would be fine, but this is a four hour party. I feel I need to get some sort of compensation. Do you agree? Should I say, it was good practice and just go for it, or do I potentially put the relationship on the line, and maybe future jobs and bring up money. I am not good at these things
TIA Flickr My, not quite there yet, website
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just MO.
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www.ivarborst.nl & smugmug
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I think it is. And that's OK. Everyone wants something for nadda (me too!). The way I deal with it is by asking, once the project is outlined, is; "What's the budget"? From there, it's easy! But it NEEDS to be brought up on the onslaught - Going back is a no-no and usually screws things up HUGE... You just end up looking silly (read NO recommendations).
I dunno, perhaps see if you can just get in there and shoot the gift opening and cake presentation. Get a release signed and hopefully come out with something (imagery) that's useful in your advertising. FWIW though, I find that people who get things for nadda are GREAT for referring people that are wanting the same. It can become a very vicious circle.
Good luck with the wedding!
Exactly what would they be paying you for? For you to learn?
If they are paying, they could get someone that knows what they are doing not someone that dosen't.
I'm not a carpet cleaner but I'm just getting into it. I have a big job to do next august and I'd love to come practice on your house. It's not that getting nothing bothers me, I would love the practice, but I do feel like it's going to be a long job, it's not like I am foing a couple of rugs, that's different. This business is so hard to get into, especially when you have "friends" who are willing to "let" you clean their carpets for "nothing".
I think the person IS doing you a favour and you should appreciate that for what it is. Sure she -MAY- get some decent shots out of it but lets face it, she could also get some decent shots out of the half dozen friends and family that will inevitably have camera's there. It's a kids party, not a major advertising campaign and getting a few good shots to remember the occasion will be as much good luck as management.
You may think and /or know your a hot shooter but she certainly dosen't and I doubt her expectations are that high despite what she may say or you think.
Perhaps you would be better bailing on this job and putting an advertisment somewhere saying that you want practice as a photographer as you are just starting out and advertising your rates and see what you get.
It would be interesting to see how many people will pay you to learn and let themselves be the guinea pigs for any possible screw ups or crappy work.
I Guarantee you she never thought you'd charge her...otherwise, she'd have asked.."how much?"
If you want to build a portfolio of event type situations, then this event may help you. Also, in learning phase, just get the shot!
I think you should ask how many shots she'd like processed, or what might she want to do with the end product; prints, book, or Web?
Good Luck!
She has seen my shots, and she likes them. I think she felt since she was a friend I shouldn't charge her, not because I am a newbie to events. I've taken pics at events, just not paid for it. There is a difference. I get paid to take photos believe it or not. I do commercial photography at work, this is a sidestep for me, so yea, I am new to that portion of it, but I am very confident she will be thrilled with the photos, I was more worried about how someone else would handle the situation. Not shooting the party, dealing with money. Money is always an issue, so yea I am sure that they figured since I was a friend and just starting out they could get it for free, it has nothing to do with her expectations of my work, but thanks.
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One possible way to handle this in a tactful way would be to drop her an email to ask about details again (times, etc.) so that you "can make sure it gets onto the calendar accurately." Ask her if she'll allow you to use the photos for self-promotion in the same email, then you'll have that in writing, too. After she responds, offer to make a couple of 8x10's for her if she has some favorites, and tell her that you'll send her the link to an online gallery when you're done processing them. If you use SmugMug Pro, you could even create a coupon for her worth $X of prints.
Do you end up getting paid for all of your time this way? No, but you do potentially make some money on any prints or other things she (or others) decide to order after the party. You could even go one step further and create the gallery prior to the party, then make a few small fliers that you can leave on tables there listing the gallery address and saying that the photos will be available there "in a few days." Then you could also score some income from other people at the party buying prints of your fabulous pictures. Also, by offering a few "free" prints, you are gently establishing the fact that you consider your work worth something, and not in a way that has a high chance of harming your relationship with this person. If you shoot some really awesome stuff, then you have some good portfolio material. Four hours of portfolio building and a few $4 8x10's might well be worth the effort.
In the end, if she drops some money your way after the event, make her a set of standard-sized prints, too. When you get everything, hand-deliver them to her and say thank you.
That's my take, at least.
jonathan
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I've had very good and some bad experiences working for free. The worst is when the event coordinator thinks/acts that they own you and start setting up and demanding shots and directing the entire situation with no input from moi (the photog).
So, based upon my experience, I recommend that, assuming this is pro bono, (per her earlier remarks, it appears that is the expectation), ... to tell her that you'll shot it your way, on your time and final images will be processed after your paid work (so don't bug you). So if you get terribly bored you can leave the party on your option and most importantly, she won't be directing/demanding you to shoot this, that and the other.
If all of the above isn't absolutely clear ... then one party or the other or even both parties will potentially harbor bad feelings which may be taken into the work place.
Good Luck,
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
how about we temper our responses with understanding and consideration and an eye on helping our peers along?
the OP never claimed to be a "hot shooter" - in fact she's been very candid about her lack of ability and as such is seeking guidance on handling a difficult, or clumsy, situation.
there are various degrees of accomplishment and ability in any profession but each deserve a commensurate level of compensation and while she may not be able to command $10,000 for a wedding or $1,000 for a birthday bash, she shouldn't be taken advantage of either.
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Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
No, it's realistic and you should read what I wrote again without reading into it emotionally. I implied nothing toward you, I made a comparison
of how the situation would look if it were reversed and what the likley outcome would be. In the real world, very few people are going to pay you to learn take photos regardless of your own confidence when the market is so competitive and they could no doubt get someone that can show more experience.
I'm not doubting your abilities to take pics of a kids birthday party, I'm simply making what I believe is a factual observation looking from the situation from another angle which I believe is very close to the likley real world outcome.
I am glad you are happy with what you have worked out with the co worker and you are getting what you want. Given your excitement over the job I can well understand if there was any confusion on the co workers part, how that came about.
Hopefully the exercise has been a great learning curve and next time such a situation comes up you will know to bring up the financial side of things straight away.
Both the friend's wedding and the co-worker's birthday party are learning experiences and portfolio builders for you. You say that you're confident in your abilities, but you're nervous about the wedding shoot. And you've stated that you're new to event photography, which is significantly different than portraiture or product photography due to the speed of action and uncontrolled lighting environment. Taken all together, these factors mean that you will be learning as you go on both shoots, and will probably make more mistakes than you typically do in a portrait session. And that demands that you compensate the clients.
Of course, the clients are still getting valuable products and services from you - a pro photographer to shoot their respective events, and a package of photos, either files or prints or both - so they certainly should have to pay for those products and services. But like any learning environment, the possibility of substandard work from someone who is learning entitles them to a discounted price. Interns, apprentices, and students don't make as much as masters in any trade, and photography should be no exception.
So, I think you should get paid for both events, but I think you should be extremely generous to both clients.
Part of the learning experience will also be in how you deal with the clients, before, during, and after the events. You're already seeing the pitfalls of the "before" part - neither you nor the co-worker allocated proper time to discuss what she wanted, what you would deliver, how you would do it, and how much it would cost her, and you're both now confused. You already mentioned tailoring your contract for the birthday shoot client; I recommend that you also tailor the contract for the wedding shoot, and clearly define exactly what products and services you will provide and how much they will cost. I know the wedding shoot is for a friend, and you may think there is no way under the sun that you and your friend could EVER have a dispute or misunderstanding, but that's just not true. In fact, misunderstandings and disputes between friends can often be the worst, most gut-wrenching of conflicts. Do yourself a favor - insist on a clear contract for both events, with both your deliverables and your compensation spelled out in complete detail.
For the "During" part, Weddings and parties have a completely different dynamic than a portrait session, and the clients expect different things out of the photographer and different products. Be prepared, and be ready to be flexible, as things change during those events; stuff will come up that wasn't discussed, clients will ask you to do things that weren't in the agreement, and schedules will change due to delays and snags.
The "After" part will be very similar to other shoots, but since the packages will be larger, your delivery and reviewing session will take longer. And the wedding photos, in particular, will draw more dissatisfaction than any pics you've ever shot before. Brides are brutal on photographers; don't think that just because the bride is your friend, and that she knows it's your first wedding shoot, that she'll take it easy on you.
Additionally, since both of these events are portfolio builders for you, be sure there is a release clause in both contracts allowing you to use images from both shoots in your advertising materials.
You may have thought of a lot of this stuff already (hopefully you have), but it bears repeating.
Eat as much cake as possible..
and give out business cards at the same time..
the end.
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Let me jump in here if I may. One very important thing to remember - EXPECTATIONS. The expectations of a friend for 1 year birthday party <> expectations of a bride for her wedding. So, before the wedding is finalized be sure you have duplicate equipment (2 bodies, 2 flashes. 2 sets of lenses) as well as a signed contract spelling out what you will deliver and how finances will work. You can read up more posts on that. But if you don't have backup equipment and don't have a contract you shouldn't shoot it - period.
Now, on to the birthday party: It is a learning experience but at the same time your time and experience has value. I'm glad she brought up compensation you are both happy with. For other people reading this though I would like to say:
Everyone has a first paid gig. For event work - a party or wedding - the biggest advice I can give is - you need to have some experience taking the TYPE of shots you'll have to take. For the birthday party for example - you'll very likely be doing a lot of work with external flash (if you're getting paid and using built in flash you're over your head) - so do you have good experience using flash and getting flash exposure and white balance right? You'll have some group interactive (i.e. non posed) shots - so are you good at moving around the room and anticipating what angle to take photos from? And if there are older kids - toddlers, etc the family will want photos of them too - but they move fast. So do you have experience taking photos of them. A mom or dad who takes photos at their own party can do a good job (assuming they know equipment) because they've dealt with these issues and understand how fast things can progress. If you don't have experience using flash, don't have experience shooting parties then you're not ready to charge.
Now, once you make the decision - make sure you understand what the environment will be (house, back yard, party center), how many people are involved, and who the important pictures are they want. That way you can make sure you get several photos of the "important" guests right off the bat and then you can free-lance. But you don't want to miss a photo of Aunt Martha because she's not doing anything interesting and yet the mother really loves her Aunt Martha.
I will also add - if doing this type of work I strongly recommend considering a CD sale rather than smugmug gallery. Here's why: friends/family may want a photo or two but they don't want to pay $7 in shipping to get them. And "Aunt Martha" may not be savvy enough to order photos from the site. You'd be surprised how many people who aren't used to buying off the internet can get turned off by the buying experience at Smugmug. Smugmug has a great interface - but that's to those of us who are internet savy. For the casual first time buyer who doesn't do a lot of online shopping it can seem too overwhelming. But taking a CD to Walmart is fairly strait forward. For the same reason, downloading a photo and putting it on CD or jump drive to take to WalMart can be too difficult. Why is any of this important? Because it reduces the amount of print sales you will make. So base your income on the shooting/processing time and deliver a single CD. Then you can let "mom & dad" worry about distribution while you still get your target income.
Then make sure they get the CD within a couple days (when you have a business going or when it's a wedding you can take longer but with only a single gig you want that turn-around time to be 2 days max - that immediately puts the customer in a positive frame of mind: "Wow, that was quick").
Sorry to hear you are desperate for cash.
Personally I would sooner sit under a bridge (no rain) and hold out a cup for passers by than try and charge a friend to take a few photos at a birthday party.
Then you don't value your skills. I have a friend that owns a body shop - I wouldn't dream of imposing on him and asking him to fix my car for free.
I have another friend that is a doctor. I wouldn't dream of asking him to treat my sick son for free.
If someone wants photos without regard to quality they can hand a camera to Aunt Martha and take what they can get. And by the way, barter is an acceptable form of payment. But if you assume your skill and time has no value, everyone else will assume that also.
That's statement while may be true for you, isn't true for others..
As a former photo journalist, not only did I place high value on my photographic skills ... I earned a decent weekly salary from others that confirmed that value. Yet, I do a lot of photography pro bono. I don't believe my skill value has been lowered to zero when I deliver a DVD with hundreds of free images. The recipients are extremely greatful and appreciate of my skills and never have I received a "thanks for nothing" remark.
As to the doctor statement, again, while that may be true for you, isn't true of others.
It all depends on your relationship ... for example I have a very close friend who is a physician (we have dinner two to three times a week). My mother died recently from cancer and throughout her illness he delivered prescriptions and advice numerous times all for free, (when her primary care doctor was unavailable), ... and on the flip side I was instrumental in closing a loan enabling him to buy another doctor's business (I did not ask a fee for my participation/work).
Then again friends don't take food away from friends ... there is a problem if the co-worker expected a free "party-shoot" at the expense of Fstoplife not shooting a for-pay-job on the same day.
But if there isn't any skin off Fstoplife's nose and if the co-worker can live with less than a for-pay-job performance (in terms of turn-around time ... not image quality) ... then it's all okay.
My mechanic gives me free fish and I give him free backyard veggies and fruits. He cuts his profit on repairs to my vehicle, (for which I am thankful), but I never insist he do so ... and I would be upset if he cut into his acutal costs for the repair.
It all depends on the relationship ... what's good for moi, may not be good for Fstoplife et cetera. There is no right or wrong here ... so do what your gut tells you ... tempered by compromise and repect for yourself and others.
Man, this is getting long ... I live in SoCal and a friend told me that with tough decisions to use the "LA Times" rule. What decision would you want to see plastered as a front page headline of the LA Times ... that's the one to make.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
Fstoplife - Take the meat of this and throw away the gristle...You asked a very legitimate question, and some here have provided you with very legitimate responses. I would have to agree with the consensus that you take this as a portfolio building/learning experience and don't charge. When friends of friends start talking and business starts picking up from the work you did for free, you'll find that the compensation from future gigs will more than help cover some of these initial shoots/expenses ;-)
Keep track of your miles and expenses for tax purposes too - At the very least, you can write it off and save a little $ on your return