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Need help w/flash settings (D300 w/ SB-800)

LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
edited June 22, 2010 in Technique
Ok, I'm definitely still learning when it comes to using my flash to improve my pictures. I've come a long way in terms of learning to bounce or reposition the flash etc, but right now I just need some help with the basic settings.

Probably what I need is just a better understanding of what each mode does, but here's the specific issue I'm running into:

With the flash mounted on the camera in TTL mode, I want to know how to control the balance between flash and ambient light. I've figured out that adjusting my exposure compensation will let more or less ambient light into the shot without changing the amount of light coming in from the flash. So far so good. It was my assumption that I could then use the flash compensation to adjust the amount of light coming in from the flash without having much (or any) affect on the ambient light. But in a bunch of test shots, the flash compensation doesn't seem to do anything at all!!

I tried adjusting it on my camera, and I also tried adjusting it on the back of the flash. There was no noticeable difference no matter how much I adjusted this up or down. Do those adjustments only apply to manual flash? I definitely don't understand all of the different modes that this flash is capable of, but it seems like this should be possible without giving up the TTL/fill flash.

Thanks in advance for your help. :thumb
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    Hmm, well this is a little embarrassing. I was using my 50mm f/1.4 for the test shots, and since I had it wide open at 1.4, it appears that the flash was already firing at minimum power, which caused it to show no difference when I adjusted the flash compensation down to -3. I performed the same tests at f/11 and was able to make the adjustments with expected results.

    yelrotflmao.gif
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    LiveAwake wrote: »
    Hmm, well this is a little embarrassing. I was using my 50mm f/1.4 for the test shots, and since I had it wide open at 1.4, it appears that the flash was already firing at minimum power, which caused it to show no difference when I adjusted the flash compensation down to -3. I performed the same tests at f/11 and was able to make the adjustments with expected results.

    yelrotflmao.gif


    Good.

    The way you control the balance between ambient and flash is with Shutter speed, which may mean you also have to adjust ISO. If you meter for ambient and use that flash in TTL and then make your adjustments either on camera Flash +/- or on SB800 +/- then you'll def see a difference!
    tom wise
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    as a newbee i am busy with the same thing
    my findings so far ;

    - TTL does not responds to shutter speed changes
    only to Aperture changes

    - exposure compensation doesnt change any light
    it only off-sets the light-meter

    - flash compensation works fine , but i use manual
    also , i have set it in both camera and sb800 [ su800 actually ]
    the sum of both together is actual flash compensation
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,698 moderator
    edited June 19, 2010
    Use your camera in Manual Mode, and your flash in iTTL. Now you can control the ratio of light on the subject and the light on the background. In very bright light, you may need to turn on FP mode (high speed synch for Canon shooters ) to allow shutter speeds higher than the native flash synch of ~1/250th sec.

    Exposure compensation does not exist in Manual Mode, but Flash exposure compensation will stii work.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    Exposure compensation does exits
    i have set it to -4 [ D60 - manual mode ]

    have not tried FP mode yet [ thanks for hint ]
    shutter speed is actually limited to 1/200 (manual mode) and 1/60 (aperture mode)
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    pathfinder wrote: »
    Use your camera in Manual Mode, and your flash in iTTL. Now you can control the ratio of light on the subject and the light on the background. In very bright light, you may need to turn on FP mode (high speed synch for Canon shooters ) to allow shutter speeds higher than the native flash synch of ~1/250th sec.

    Exposure compensation does not exist in Manual Mode, but Flash exposure compensation will stii work.
    Thanks - this is very helpful! It requires me to pay attention to a bit more, which could lead to some mistakes in fast-paced situations while I'm still getting used to it, but it gives me a great deal of control over the balance between flash and ambient light. Awesome!
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    time2smiletime2smile Registered Users Posts: 835 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2010
    pathfinder wrote: »
    Use your camera in Manual Mode, and your flash in iTTL. Now you can control the ratio of light on the subject and the light on the background. In very bright light, you may need to turn on FP mode (high speed synch for Canon shooters ) to allow shutter speeds higher than the native flash synch of ~1/250th sec.

    Exposure compensation does not exist in Manual Mode, but Flash exposure compensation will stii work.

    Pathfinder, on my D90 exposure compensation does still work in manual..
    Ted....
    It's not what you look at that matters: Its what you see!
    Nikon
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,698 moderator
    edited June 20, 2010
    Really? Are you sure? Or are you referring to Flash exposure compensation, perhaps?

    The whole concept of exposure compensation, and totally manual control of your camera, do not mesh.

    I shoot Canon, and maybe Nikon is arranged differently, so I will wait to hear from other Nikonians

    If I am incorrect, I do apologize
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    again
    yes , it works in manual mode
    i set it to -4

    it does not change EV itself , it just off-sets the meter

    Nikon calls it EV-correction
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    pathfinder wrote: »
    Really? Are you sure? Or are you referring to Flash exposure compensation, perhaps?

    The whole concept of exposure compensation, and totally manual control of your camera, do not mesh.

    I shoot Canon, and maybe Nikon is arranged differently, so I will wait to hear from other Nikonians

    If I am incorrect, I do apologize


    No..no...you said it best. When I replied I automatically think he is shooting in Manual Mode...Nikon is no different.

    What Basfit is referring to is what I call Body compensation and he is right it only affects the meter. And what we both (pathfinder and I) are referring to is Flash compensation which is found on the flash side of your Nikon camera body OR on the SB800. High speed sync has to be engaged via a menu option and then the SB800 can handle 320th second shutter speeds. When Basfit mention -4 he was not talking about flash comp...flash comp only goes to -3. So he was prob adjusting the wrong piece.

    And (basfit) iTTL does respond to shutter changes you just haven't figured out how it does.
    tom wise
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    i changed language in my camera to English , to verify
    it is EXPOSURE compensation i have changed , sure

    FLASH compensation can be adjusted on BOTH sb800 and in-camera
    the sum of both is actual flash compensation

    from the manual ;
    Image3.jpg

    edit;
    to who it may concern
    image2du.jpg
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,698 moderator
    edited June 20, 2010
    Your manual clearly states that : " In M Mode, photographs are taken at the shutter speed and aperture manually specified, even when Exposure Compensation has been applied"

    So as I said, exposure compensation DOES not alter the set aperture or shutter speed. Apparently on a Nikon camera, Exposure comp does alter the reading of the light meter - well and good, but does not change the manually set aperture and shutter speed. On my Canon camera Exposure compensation does not exist, since I set the aperture and shutter speed manually. I think the difference is one of how one defines Exposure compensation, but I will accept that in the Nikon world the meter readings are altered, rather than delivered to me to be interpreted....
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    of course , guess this is a language issue
    i said before ;http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1408222&postcount=10
    it dont change EV , only the meter
    but it does work

    how ever , for me , personally , it is necessary ;;;
    whenever i use flash (inbuilt or external) meter go's way out of view
    with Exposure compensation it is adjusted back again to "normal" .
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,698 moderator
    edited June 20, 2010
    in iTTL shutter speed should have no significant effect on the flash exposure, as the burst of light is way to brief to be limited by the shutter speed, unless you are using 1/3000th or shorter -and if your shutter speed is that brief, you probably do not really need flash.
    Aperture affects both ambient and flash exposure. With your camera in Manual mode, and your flask in iTTL, your shutter speed will mostly effect the ambient exposure for the background. This allows you to expose the subject properly, and also ( with the correct choice of shutter speed ) to under expose the background 1/2 stop, so your subject will really pop in your image.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    Yes, I thought that was strange too. I just checked on my D300, and adjusting the exposure compensation dial when in manual mode simply adjusts the meter reading but not the aperture or shutter speed. I guess that way if I want to under-expose by 4 stops I can dial it way down, then use the meter to see if my settings are right.
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    LiveAwake wrote: »
    Yes, I thought that was strange too. I just checked on my D300, and adjusting the exposure compensation dial when in manual mode simply adjusts the meter reading but not the aperture or shutter speed. I guess that way if I want to under-expose by 4 stops I can dial it way down, then use the meter to see if my settings are right.


    Pathfinder said it best so far....And perhaps you've found a unique way to adjust stops of light by fooling the meter...But why do that. I think most of us would simply like a meter that metered true and adjust what needs to be adjusted to get the effect we're after, N'es pas?

    And Quoting Pathfinder again, "With your camera in Manual mode, and your flask in iTTL, your shutter speed will mostly effect the ambient exposure for the background. This allows you to expose the subject properly, and also ( with the correct choice of shutter speed ) to under expose the background 1/2 stop, so your subject will really pop in your image."

    You want to control the balance of flash to ambient light: this is it!It is easy, it is the easiest and it is the way to do it!Adjusting a body's meter is not the way.I sometimes adjust my bodies meter down -0.7 dependent on situation and know that I will have to re-adjust it when I am away from that given situation...but that is the Only time I adjust that compensation. If you're gonna play with that button, you're gonna have to shoot something other than manual for it to have ANY effect other than foolin yer meter~
    tom wise
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2010
    perhaps you've found a unique way to adjust stops of light by fooling the meter...But why do that. I think most of us would simply like a meter that metered true and adjust what needs to be adjusted to get the effect we're after, N'es pas?
    I think most of the time, I would agree - no point in doing this. The one way I could see it being useful is if you wanted to under- or over-expose your background by more than about 2 stops . . . it gets to the point where you can't see it on the meter unless you have adjusted the meter somewhat (I can see 2 stops in each direction through the viewfinder, and 3 stops in each direction on the top LCD).

    Not a situation I've run into much in my shooting, but I could see how some unusual lighting situations would make it useful. Maybe shooting with the sun behind your subject and using a flash to illuminate their face . . .
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    angevin1 wrote: »
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you're gonna have to shoot something other than manual for it to have ANY effect other than foolin yer meter~

    tried that too , but with same result ;
    4 stops over-exposed

    and in manual mode , as LiveAwake said ;
    the meter is simply way out of view , with correct exposure

    i guess the meter doesnt compensate the light from the flash ne_nau.gif
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    basflt wrote: »
    tried that too , but with same result ;
    4 stops over-exposed

    and in manual mode , as LiveAwake said ;
    the meter is simply way out of view , with correct exposure

    i guess the meter doesnt compensate the light from the flash ne_nau.gif
    Basfit, I may be misunderstanding you, but if I'm getting what you're saying I think you have misunderstood what the exposure compensation does in manual mode.

    In any "automatic" mode (ie aperture priority, shutter priority, program etc.) your camera tries to give an exposure that is neutral - not blown out in the highlights, not too dark in the shadows. In these modes, using exposure compensation will tell the camera to let more or less light than is needed for that "neutral" exposure.

    In manual mode, of course, you select both shutter speed and aperture to get the exposure you want. The camera's light meter is there to help you see on the fly how the settings you have chosen compare to its "neutral" exposure. In this mode, the exposure compensation dial does nothing at all to your aperture or shutter speed, and therefore has no effect on the image you get. All it does is adjust the meter reading. Thus, if you dial the exposure compensation down 1 stop, and then manually choose settings that make the meter show a correct exposure, then you will get a shot that is underexposed by 1 stop. It's just a way to let you see what you are doing manually a bit more easily.

    Hope that is clarifying rather than just more confusing.
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    its not confusing and
    i do understand
    you came with TTL-flash question , not me rolleyes1.gif
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    LiveAwakeLiveAwake Registered Users Posts: 263 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    basflt wrote: »
    its not confusing and
    i do understand
    you came with TTL-flash question , not me rolleyes1.gif
    Sorry, I thought you were confused about why the exp. compensation wasn't affecting your images in manual. I guess I misunderstood.
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    time2smiletime2smile Registered Users Posts: 835 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    Pathfinder, Thanks, when i do manual i dont EC. But i noticed it did still work, whithout your comment i may have used it in the future and would wonder why it really didnt work....

    Have you tried ttl-bl heres an old link that may help
    http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/

    good luck
    Ted....
    It's not what you look at that matters: Its what you see!
    Nikon
    http://www.time2smile.smugmug.com
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    pathfinder wrote: »
    Use your camera in Manual Mode, and your flash in iTTL. Now you can control the ratio of light on the subject and the light on the background. In very bright light, you may need to turn on FP mode (high speed synch for Canon shooters ) to allow shutter speeds higher than the native flash synch of ~1/250th sec.

    Exposure compensation does not exist in Manual Mode, but Flash exposure compensation will stii work.

    i can not find this FP-mode
    can anyone confirm it is (not) available in D60 ?
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    adbsgicomadbsgicom Registered Users Posts: 3,615 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    basflt wrote: »
    i can not find this FP-mode
    can anyone confirm it is (not) available in D60 ?

    It is a mode on the flash that allows you to use the flash at rates higher than the max-sync rate by changing the way the flash works. In normal mode, the flash fires a single fast pulse of light that falls within the period when the shutter is fully open. Since the shutters are not fully open above the max sync speed, FP (or for Canon HS Sync), changes that pulse to a bunch of smaller pulses so light is applied over a longer period of time, i.e., the full shutter period. This means two things: 1) You lose power 2) The motion-stopping feature of the flash is lost since flash-period == shutter speed now.

    Look in your flash manual for the FP Sync mode.
    - Andrew

    Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    adbsgicom wrote: »

    Look in your flash manual for the FP Sync mode.


    i did ;
    it says it must be done in [compatible ] camera
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    basflt wrote: »
    i can not find this FP-mode
    can anyone confirm it is (not) available in D60 ?

    It is NOT on your D60...or the D90 for that matter..It is a menu setting on the D300/s and D700/D3 series though.

    Your flash sync is limited to 1/200th....according to your manual.
    tom wise
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    time2smiletime2smile Registered Users Posts: 835 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    angevin1 wrote: »
    It is NOT on your D60...or the D90 for that matter..It is a menu setting on the D300/s and D700/D3 series though.

    Your flash sync is limited to 1/200th....according to your manual.


    Its in the D90,
    Ted....
    It's not what you look at that matters: Its what you see!
    Nikon
    http://www.time2smile.smugmug.com
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    basfltbasflt Registered Users Posts: 1,882 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    angevin1 wrote: »
    It is NOT on your D60...or the D90 for that matter..It is a menu setting on the D300/s and D700/D3 series though.

    Your flash sync is limited to 1/200th....according to your manual.

    thats correct
    any way around it , perhaps ?
    or , do i have to live with it ?
    Bas

    /ɯoɔ˙ƃnɯƃnɯs˙ʇlɟsɐq//:dʇʇɥ
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    time2smile wrote: »
    Its in the D90,


    Thanks for the correction...I'd been looking for that ever since we got that thing two months ago!

    #e5 called FP sync on the D90

    I stand happily corrected.
    tom wise
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    angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2010
    basflt wrote: »
    thats correct
    any way around it , perhaps ?
    or , do i have to live with it ?


    I rarely see anything as not having a work-around or solution.

    But your manual clearly states that the camera will only go to max-x-sync of 1/200th of SLOWER.

    I spotted a discourse on an interesting work-around: http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikondigitallearningcenter/discuss/72157617461680354/
    tom wise
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