Shooting with long lenses

Simo70 · July 2, 2010

Hi to everyone,
I have been shooting with a Nikon AFS 300mm f4 mounted on my D300s and I have noticed that most of my handheld photos are not sharp. For most of the shots I used a shutter speed of 1/2000s which I thought it was enough to freeze the action. If the rules of shooting at a shutter speed at least equivalent to the lens length is true I shouldn't have any problem. Am I missing something??
I am trying to get some wildlife shoots in preparation of my trip to Yellowstone, and this long week-end I will try to take some pictures adding the AF-S Teleconverter TC-17E II.
Any thoughts??
Thanks
Simone

Mike J · July 2, 2010

I wouldn't think you have a problem but you didn't say what aperture you are shooting at. I shoot that same lens on a D300 for Ski Racing and have been very happy with the results. Here is one with a Kenko 1.4TC and handheld:

It is likely your focus and tracking techniques. Have you loaded the photos into the Nikon View or Capture SW and have it show you the focus point? I find this very helpful if I have missed focus to see what it was actually focused on.

What focus settings are you using?

run_kmc · July 2, 2010

This is something that can be hard to diagnose without being there. It could be any number of things. I would suggest the following setup as a test: Use a tripod, stop down to f/5.6 or f/8, set a delay of a few seconds for the mirror (I'm assuming the D300s has that ability. It should) and see if the resulting image is acceptable.

If we could see samples, that would also be helpful.

jfriend · July 4, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

Hi to everyone,
I have been shooting with a Nikon AFS 300mm f4 mounted on my D300s and I have noticed that most of my handheld photos are not sharp. For most of the shots I used a shutter speed of 1/2000s which I thought it was enough to freeze the action. If the rules of shooting at a shutter speed at least equivalent to the lens length is true I shouldn't have any problem. Am I missing something??
I am trying to get some wildlife shoots in preparation of my trip to Yellowstone, and this long week-end I will try to take some pictures adding the AF-S Teleconverter TC-17E II.
Any thoughts??
Thanks
Simone

Even at a fast shutter speed, you need good lens/body holding technique and you have to nail focus properly with long lenses. If you post some example shots, we can give you a better idea what we think might be happening (subject blur, lens motion blur and missed focus all look different in a real photo). 1/2000th is probably enough to stop blur due to subject motion for most subjects, but it won't necessarily overcome lens motion blur from too much motion of the lens/body and it won't help with missed focus at all.

You need a good stable platform to shoot from and you need the right technique for nailing focus (which depends upon the type of subject and how it is moving or not moving).

FYI, here's how I set my D300 up for shooting soccer with the 200-400 and I use mostly the same settings for wildlife, but we can tell you a lot more about what's going on if you post links to some sample photos (in full resolution) that show the issue you are experiencing.

Bayer-Z28 · July 6, 2010

^ My 200mm Nikon lens is the same way. The clarity and sharpness just isn't there. I only use that lens if/ I need it now.

Seefutlung · July 6, 2010

As everybody has stated ... could be a hardware problem ... could be an operator problem .. or it could be a combo of both. We just need some more info.

You stated "most", so what's the dif between the sharp images and the less-than-sharp images (i.e. f/stop [are all one f/stop in focus et cetera?], subject matter [moving/non-moving?], focus selection [are you using the same focus arrangement for the sharp as you are for the less-than-sharp?]

Using a tripod is a good way to distinguish between hardware and operator. I'd shoot at different speeds wide open, stop down to somewhere in the middle (5.6 or 8) then a few on the closed down end. Shoot a static scene ... shoot something moving ... shoot a tracking shot ... then do it all again handheld.

I know, this is a drag ... but your alternative is to drop off your camera and lens to Nikon.

Good Luck,
Gary

Simo70 · July 7, 2010

Thank you all for the comments. Here are some additional info for my camera setups and also few 100% crops of photos I took to both steady and moving subject. In my opinion these images are not "razor sharp" as those I have seen on this website.

John thank you for sharing the set up for the D300 on your blog. That is fantastic, I wish I read it earlier. I will definetly use your advices and see if I can do better.

Mike I have checked the focus point on Aperture and noticed that in many cases the red square of the focus is way out of the subject, expecially if it moves, although the photo I have attached the focus is where it is supposed to be.
At this point I believe it must be the way I hold my camera and I will experiment some other way to hold it steady.

This is the first shoot:
AFC with dynamic AF area set with 51point (3D-Tracking)and the focus selector on AF dynamic
ISO400 1/1000s f/6.7. The focus point is right on the shoulder.

Simo70 · July 7, 2010

Sorry I am not able to attach more than one file at the time.

Another moving object. Same setting of the one above with shutter speed at 1/2000s f/8 ISO 400 and fucusright on the neck. Again it doesn't seem sharp enough.

Simo70 · July 7, 2010

Blue Heron using the 300mm with the Nikon TC1.7 EII. - Focus was set on AFS and the area mode was on single point AF. Shutter speed 1/2000s f/8 ISO 800. Focus right on the eye.

Simo70 · July 7, 2010

This is the last one i proimise:D
Same setting as above but without the TC. 1/2000s f/5.6 ISO 800 focus right in the eye.

As you can see these photos are not as sharp as i would like them to be.
Again any comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
Thank you,
Simon.

DsrtVW · July 7, 2010

Have you fine tuned your lens for focus to the camera? Take some test shots to make sure it is not back or front focusing.
I shoot hand held a lot and there is a lot of blur. I like to shoot 2 to 4 shot burst. Even with fast shutter I find blur happens when you push the shutter. But sometimes the 2nd and 3rd shots are very crisp I have a 300mm f4 ED and a 200mm f2 that I shoot with TC 1.7 and 2.0
If you dont want to drag around a tripod get a nice light monopod. Both make a wold of difference when shooting nature.

Thunder Rabbit · July 7, 2010

Howdy.

If at all practicle, I use a tripod. There is an old saying. "Judge a photographer not by the size of his lens, but by the size of his tripod".

jfriend · July 7, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

This is the last one i proimise:D
Same setting as above but without the TC. 1/2000s f/5.6 ISO 800 focus right in the eye.

As you can see these photos are not as sharp as i would like them to be.
Again any comments and suggestions are much appreciated.
Thank you,
Simon.

Based on these shots, I think you first need to figure out whether this is technique related or equipment related. The best way to narrow this down is to take some test shots in very controlled circumstances that can eliminate the technique issues. I'd suggest the following:

Pick a target that is a similar distance as these subjects.
Pick a target that is at least as large as 1/3 of the viewfinder so there's no question about what the focus sensor sees
Pick a target that has good contrast
Pick a target that is perpendicular to your line of shooting so everything the AF sensor sees is at the same distance from the camera
Use a subject that is not moving
Take the shots in very good light
Use the single area and center focus point only (no 3-D mode)
Put the camera on a secure tripod
Turn VR off
Use Mirror Lockup
Take shots at both wide open for your lens, at f/5.6 and f/8.
Use shutter speeds of at least 1/1000
Apply appropriate sharpening before evaluating the shots at 100%

If you follow all these, then this scenario should make sure that you're getting the best possible AF shot. If at least some of these shots are sharp, then your issue is technique. If none of these shots are sharp, then your lens/AF is clearly having trouble doing accurate auto-focus.

FYI, in a shot you posted like the bird where you focused on the neck, you should realize that a focus sensor has a fixed size and if your focus target is smaller than the focus sensor, then the focus sensor is getting mixed data from your intended target and from the background. This can cause back-focus. Your focus target should be at least as large as the intended focus sensor, ideally several times larger.

Art Scott · July 7, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

Sorry I am not able to attach more than one file at the time.

Simo.......all you need to do to put multiple pix in same post is simple.....pick you pic and click on the down arrow on the share button, click get a link, pick the size wanted to post,........on drgin (or any forum with the picture link button : on dgrin it is the yellow button with a mountain in it just above the text dialouge box we type in )....clik the button and input the pictures url by simply pasting it in.....do not un-hilight the "http://" as you do want it to be pasted over or you can just delete it out before pasting......do this for each picture you want to post.

Simo70 · July 8, 2010

jfriend wrote: »

Based on these shots, I think you first need to figure out whether this is technique related or equipment related. The best way to narrow this down is to take some test shots in very controlled circumstances that can eliminate the technique issues. I'd suggest the following:
Pick a target that is a similar distance as these subjects.

Pick a target that is at least as large as 1/3 of the viewfinder so there's no question about what the focus sensor sees

Pick a target that has good contrast

Pick a target that is perpendicular to your line of shooting so everything the AF sensor sees is at the same distance from the camera

Use a subject that is not moving

Take the shots in very good light

Use the single area and center focus point only (no 3-D mode)

Put the camera on a secure tripod

Turn VR off

Use Mirror Lockup

Take shots at both wide open for your lens, at f/5.6 and f/8.

Use shutter speeds of at least 1/1000

Apply appropriate sharpening before evaluating the shots at 100%

If you follow all these, then this scenario should make sure that you're getting the best possible AF shot. If at least some of these shots are sharp, then your issue is technique. If none of these shots are sharp, then your lens/AF is clearly having trouble doing accurate auto-focus.

FYI, in a shot you posted like the bird where you focused on the neck, you should realize that a focus sensor has a fixed size and if your focus target is smaller than the focus sensor, then the focus sensor is getting mixed data from your intended target and from the background. This can cause back-focus. Your focus target should be at least as large as the intended focus sensor, ideally several times larger.

Jfriend I will follow your advise and publish the result this week-end.
Thanks

Simo70 · July 8, 2010

Art Scott wrote: »

Simo.......all you need to do to put multiple pix in same post is simple.....pick you pic and click on the down arrow on the share button, click get a link, pick the size wanted to post,........on drgin (or any forum with the picture link button : on dgrin it is the yellow button with a mountain in it just above the text dialouge box we type in )....clik the button and input the pictures url by simply pasting it in.....do not un-hilight the "http://" as you do want it to be pasted over or you can just delete it out before pasting......do this for each picture you want to post.

Hi Art - Do I need to post the images on my smugmug page in order to get the link??
I am not sure how to get it from the HD?

Art Scott · July 8, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

Hi Art - Do I need to post the images on my smugmug page in order to get the link??
I am not sure how to get it from the HD?

yes they would need to uploaded to your sm account.............

I am sorry....i just figured that you kept all of your images on your sm site.......that is what I get for assuming anything :-}
all of my images go into my sm site as a form of backup.....they are by no means accessible by the public

I apologize again for the assumption.........................

Simo70 · July 11, 2010

JFriend
I followed your advises and here are my shots:
ISO 400 - lockup mirror mode - single focus centered - f4, f5.6 and f8.
Target at about 50'. Images are as they were shot.

Although the subject is not the best they all seem to be in focus and pretty sharp to me.

I agree that the focus sensor should be smaller than the target. After I took these photos I spot and big nest with a couple of ospreys at about 300 yards. I tried to aim the nest at f8 and 1/2000s on the tripod and again they are not sharp. The focus sensor was aimed on the nest.

Well at this point I can tell that the equipment is okay thus it must be me and my poor AF tracking skills.

Anyone has any suggestions?? Thanks.

Target 1 at f/4 - It seems pretty good and at f5.6 and f8 it is even better.

Target #2 - at f/4. Let me know if there is a need to upload the others.

jfriend · July 13, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

JFriend
I followed your advises and here are my shots:
ISO 400 - lockup mirror mode - single focus centered - f4, f5.6 and f8.
Target at about 50'. Images are as they were shot.

Although the subject is not the best they all seem to be in focus and pretty sharp to me.

I agree that the focus sensor should be smaller than the target. After I took these photos I spot and big nest with a couple of ospreys at about 300 yards. I tried to aim the nest at f8 and 1/2000s on the tripod and again they are not sharp. The focus sensor was aimed on the nest.

Well at this point I can tell that the equipment is okay thus it must be me and my poor AF tracking skills.

Anyone has any suggestions?? Thanks.

Target 1 at f/4 - It seems pretty good and at f5.6 and f8 it is even better.

Target #2 - at f/4. Let me know if there is a need to upload the others.

Equipment when shooting large stationary targets at 50' looks fine to me based on these two shots. 300 yards (that's 1/6 of a mile) is a long ways away to shoot something as small as a bird or nest. What was the technique involved - what lens? what stability mechanism? what type of atmospheric conditions (e.g. was it hot, were you shooting over water, etc... as all these can cause air disturbances)? Please post the shot along with details on how you took it if you want further comment on it.

jwear · July 14, 2010

Take a shot without the tc1.7.The lens you have it is very hard to get clean sharp shot with a 1.7 . A 1.4 with experience as you can see you can do well . The 300mm f4 is just not there for a 1.7 or a 2

Simo70 · July 14, 2010

jfriend wrote: »

Equipment when shooting large stationary targets at 50' looks fine to me based on these two shots. 300 yards (that's 1/6 of a mile) is a long ways away to shoot something as small as a bird or nest. What was the technique involved - what lens? what stability mechanism? what type of atmospheric conditions (e.g. was it hot, were you shooting over water, etc... as all these can cause air disturbances)? Please post the shot along with details on how you took it if you want further comment on it.

I agree with you on the stationary target. About the bird and the nest I guess I got confused with the tranlation between yards and meters. I guess the nest was about 150 meters (500') which is still a good distance.
Anyway to answer to your technique questions: Lens was the Nikon AFS 300mm f4 on tripod. No VR involved.
I guess the weather was the key. It was early afternoon and about 95F. The ocean was close but the nest is on a post in a marsh. After I read your comment "hot and air disturbance" and looking closer at the photo I can see the problem to be hot air. The birds is blur and the background looks like a Monet paint.

I will try practicing on AF traking with the AF setup on your blog and maybe shoot in a better weather condition.

This is the shot. If you see any other issue please let me know.
Thank you again.

Simo70 · July 14, 2010

jwear wrote: »

Take a shot without the tc1.7.The lens you have it is very hard to get clean sharp shot with a 1.7 . A 1.4 with experience as you can see you can do well . The 300mm f4 is just not there for a 1.7 or a 2

After seeing your shots I have to agree with you. The TC1.4 appers to work much better.
I will rent it to try myself. Thanks.

jfriend · July 14, 2010

Simo70 wrote: »

I agree with you on the stationary target. About the bird and the nest I guess I got confused with the tranlation between yards and meters. I guess the nest was about 150 meters (500') which is still a good distance.
Anyway to answer to your technique questions: Lens was the Nikon AFS 300mm f4 on tripod. No VR involved.
I guess the weather was the key. It was early afternoon and about 95F. The ocean was close but the nest is on a post in a marsh. After I read your comment "hot and air disturbance" and looking closer at the photo I can see the problem to be hot air. The birds is blur and the background looks like a Monet paint.

I will try practicing on AF tracking with the AF setup on your blog and maybe shoot in a better weather condition.

This is the shot. If you see any other issue please let me know.
Thank you again.

I agree that atmospheric conditions are not helping you at this distance. Welcome to the issues with long distance shots.

If I look at your original at 100% and apply some more contrast and more sharpening than one would ever do in practice, the bird does not ever look sharp. But, the pole that the nest is sitting on looks OK. This implies to me that either the bird was moving too much for your shutter speed or the shot is a bit back-focused such that the plane of focus is near the back of the nest which was OK for the pole, but not OK for the bird or most of the nest that we can see.

Another experiment you can do is to take a shot with the auto-focus, then without touching the focus position, switch the lens to manual focus. Then manually move your focus one way a tiny bit, take a shot, then go the other way a tiny bit and take a shot and compare the three shots. If your shot is just back or front focused, then one of the second two shots should look noticably better than the first. Just write down which way you did the shots so when you compare, you will know which result is which. If the issue is back or front focus, shooting wide open may make it easier to discern in test shots because that narrows the DOF.

I'd say this target is barely big enough to keep the center sensor from seeing much of the background. Super sharp shots generally require more magnification, closer distance or a larger target.

FYI, this is what a center 100% crop looks like with contrast added and oversharpened (just to see how well things take the sharpening). The bird and nest don't look good. The pole isn't that bad:

Shooting with long lenses

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