Just a teeny little rant....
So my sister was just able to go through pics from her sister-in-laws wedding and since I am shooting a wedding next July I thought I would peek in and see a behind the scenes, if you will. I was so disappointed with what they shot. The WB is way off and practically every picture is on an angle. They got some decent shots in there, but for the most part they are not that great technically or compositionally. I was so surprised because they paid a lot of money for these photos.
I really don't think i would want to do a huge wedding, it's a lot of work, I know that, and I have tons of respect for any photographer who takes that on, but I just don't understand how some "professional" photographers talk the talk but do not walk the walk. I wish I could post some of the shots so you can see, but since I don't own them, I assume I can not do that.
I guess I shouldn't say much because I am not a wedding photographer, but I do know that had they been my photos for my wedding, I would've been very disappointed.
It's funny though my sister brought up the point "She doesn't know what other photos look like so this is good to her" and I hate to bash anybody's photography, because it's hard and it is an art, to each his own. I was just really surprised at the quality to cost ratio.
I really don't think i would want to do a huge wedding, it's a lot of work, I know that, and I have tons of respect for any photographer who takes that on, but I just don't understand how some "professional" photographers talk the talk but do not walk the walk. I wish I could post some of the shots so you can see, but since I don't own them, I assume I can not do that.
I guess I shouldn't say much because I am not a wedding photographer, but I do know that had they been my photos for my wedding, I would've been very disappointed.
It's funny though my sister brought up the point "She doesn't know what other photos look like so this is good to her" and I hate to bash anybody's photography, because it's hard and it is an art, to each his own. I was just really surprised at the quality to cost ratio.
Flickr My, not quite there yet, website
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Are the images hosted on the photographers website? If so just provide the link.
If not I believe you can post these as editorial / educational which is fair use.
Sam
Anyways, I think everyone can admit that this is definitely common these days. Digital, quite simply, has lowered consumer standards by a LOT. That, and the line between professional and amateur has been so blurred lately. Many amateurs are trying to be professional before their work is qualified, and many veteran professionals are bending to clients requirements in an effort to stay in business.
Either way, I think it's good that photographers in general discuss things like this. The more that photographers act responsibly, the more consumers will see the difference between mediocre and GREAT work.
Some would criticize an amateur for busting a professional and saying they did poorly. But I think that as subjective as "good photography" is, it should stand for itself. If you're an amateur, a guest at a wedding, and you truly believe that the hired "professional" did a terrible job, you definitely SHOULD speak up. As I said, what this "industry" needs is for both amateurs and professionals to act responsibly, to help consumers avoid hiring a bad photographer, and give business to the really gifted artists...
Take care,
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
An interesting can of worms…
Nowadays it seems that anyone and everyone with a digital camera is a photographer…
To the OP, just remember:
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public - H. L. Mencken
Sad, but true…
- Wil
When does and amateur know that their work is "qualified" ?
Rene`
http://memoriesbyrene.com
Well put Matt! I often wonder if people really appreciate the time and care I put into lighting, composition, etc. And then top that off with hours and hours of post work to give them what I consider to be a finished product. I know lots of photogs around here who charge in my price range and do none of the editing work I do, and shoot without dramatic lighting and just shoot boring non-creative shots that they have been shooting for 10 years. They shoot their cards like they are shooting 50 rolls of Fuji, and figure that is good enough! I literally put 30-40 hours into a wedding when all is said and done and sometimes it is hard to explain that to people. Those who hire me obviously get it and that is the key I guess.
I don't think there is anything wrong with setting our standards as photographers to be far above what the standards of the typical consumers are... actually I think that is key to positive growth and keeping the excitement in this work.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
1. So basically every indoor pictures has this color cast to it:
2. I like the idea of this picture, it's her father and brother, I just hate that the father is cut off so severely.
3. Another cute idea, just that angle, and I love angles, I just think when every other picture is angled like that it loses the creative effect, if you know what I mean.
4. I love this idea as well, just that crookedness, but i don't think it bothers me as much in this photo as it does in the others.
5. Another crooked photo:
She has to go through and pick 60 pictures and I am sure she will find some cute ones, there are some in there, I am not completely knocking him or his work, it's just not what I would look for in a wedding photographer or that I would like to output to a client. There is one where she's in her wedding dress and the photographer was using a gold reflector and her dress has this big yellow square on it.
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My Site http://www.jayclarkphotography.com
Canon Rebel T1i | Canon 50mm 1.8 | Tamron 28-75mm 2.8 | Canon 75-300mm EF f 4.5 III | Opteka Grip | Canon 580exII | 2 Vivitar 383 Flash's and a home studio setup.
#1 is an okay throwaway shot, except the horrible yellow cast. Was he lighting it with work lights from Home Depot?
#2 was a great idea, poorly executed. As you said, Dad is cut off way too much. The whole shot needed to be cropped tighter on the tie, too.
#3 is salvageable. It just needs to be straightened and cropped tight on the little girl.
#4 would have been great, if it were straight, and if the bride in the foreground didn't look like the girl who was killed with gold paint in Goldfinger.
#5 is an Aunt Marge snapshot. Can't see the bride past the crowd, she doesn't fill the frame enough to see her even if the crowd wasn't there, far too much of the house in the frame, and the reflections on the window are incredibly distracting. Not to mention, the tilt makes it look like he accidentally clicked the shutter as he was tripping over a lawn flamingo. Aunt Marge might consider it an acceptable snapshot, but as a professional photo, it's a disaster area that should have been summarily deleted, and should NEVER have been shown to the client.
Take all of this with a grain of salt; I'm no wedding photographer, I've only been second shooter a couple of times. But I don't think you have to be Cal Ripken to recognize when the outfielder drops the ball.
Matt,
I am not willing to believe someone sight unseen. (Period) Here we are talking about photographs, this is visual, and to some extent subjective issue. Terrible has no universal photographic definition.
As to discussing this and trying to establish and or raise standards, I agree totally.
If the work is on a website it's absolutely fair game for review and critique. You don't have to have a face to face confrontation. The photographer put it out there.
If a client is unhappy and wants input, again I think it's fair game.
If an aspiring photographer wants some third party input, I again think it's fair game and educational. Why not?
Sam
Thanks for posting some examples. Based on the images you posted I would have to say they are not up to professional standards.
This is one reason you / we should not include ALL shots taken. We leave ourselves open to harsh critique. I think all wedding photographers have some images like these after the wedding, but these are deleted imediatly upon review.
Letting bad shots out can be detrimental to your business and reputation.
Sam
Sorry, may not be 100% on topic but just my 2 cents.
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I just have one question. Why are you shooting a wedding, if you don't feel like you can do better than the terrible shots that you posted here?
You may be ruining someones special day. Stop. Don't guess you can do it...learn your craft first and then and only then work for hire.
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
I am not saying I won't do better, I am sure I will, I am positive I will. I just don't like being so cocky then it coming back to bite me in the butt. I am very confident, I just get nervous because I haven't shot a wedding before, and my friend's wedding is just really for show. She's getting married next month in Paris, the one next year is just for friends, kind of like a vow renewal for people who couldn't go to Paris.
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1, 4 - taken without benefit of fill flash and, hence, the two different light sources. We have the colder light from the window competing with the yellow tungsten light.
2. is a clear miss - see above comments. In addition, there's the distraction of the groom's men's head being bisected by Dad's arm. And that huge white thing behind the groom.
3. By the time this is cropped appropriately, there won't be enough image data there to make a decent print. This one should be binned.
4. Clearly a snapshot. Had it been a photograph, the bride would have been more flatteringly posed. Enough said.
5. Another clear miss - see WillCAD's comments. Had the photographer been quite a bit more to either the left or right and held the camera level, he/she might have gotten a good documentary type shot of the bride/groom leaving the home surrounded by the bridal party .... maybe.
As for shooting next July (I'm assuming, based on the time of your original post that this is July 2011) - if they aren't there yet you have lots of time to get your skills where they need to be. Just practice and be brutal in your self-critique. Take notes of your thoughts (re: your technique decisions) as you shoot and keep them in mind when you later review your images. Then, re-shoot with appropriate changes to your technique.
The situation found in #1 and #4 above is quite common. Learn how to use your flash (and gels) to get a properly color balanced shot. Not an easy thing to do the first couple of hundred times, but it's not rocket science either.
Good luck!
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
This is the kind of thing that really makes it hard to make a buck in this business. People see these types of photographers offering lower prices which makes a good photographer's prices seem high. Then people like you see this as a photographer "who cost a lot of money" displaying seriously underpar images and think "Wow, my Uncle Bob has a camera and could do that well" and then we don't ever get considered because now all photographer's suck, even the ones that cost a lot of money. I don't even want to consider the fact that some people would be happy with this kind of work but I'm sure some are... man that is a scary thought!!
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
I just got married in April and if those were my photos, I'd be livid if I paid more than $100 for em.
But I recently shot a wedding - my first PAID gig and I charged $600 for the day and she just gets a disc of the files to make her own prints. She was a family friend and I didn't really want to do it.. I urged her to hire someone else but she's seen my work and really wanted me to do it. So I did... I'm still processing the files... but hopefully they'll be better than what you just showed? If not... then live and learn. She was amazed at my sneak peeks so I know she'll like em.. she's not as picky as I am!
If you're interested, the sneak peek is here.
If they didn't shop around and find the best for the money they paid, then seriously, it's their own fault. Or maybe they really like his/her style? I interviewed at least 5 different photographers before choosing one for my wedding... asked around about them, etc. There was one photographer who kinda "wow'ed" me when I met him, but later someone warned me that he does a LOT of tilted photos so then I started following his blog and noticed that he WAAYYYY over-used the tilt. Then his stuff was looking over-photoshopped and plasticy, so I kept looking. I did my work to find someone I'd like and the result was photos I love!
Some people just don't really value photos from their wedding. Snapshots are sufficient for them. But as a photographer it's always good to try to get better and deliver something better than is expected.
However, it's not that easy of course. Numbers under your belt can mean nothing if your images still stink after X years and a zillion clicks. So the numbers are just a sign that you might be on the right track.
So, how do you know when your IMAGES are "qualified"? That's just too arbitrary of a measurement to say for sure. Maybe when you believe that your work is better than EVERY other friend etc. you know? Maybe when you enter and win photography contests, or get in a gallery exhibition? Or maybe it's just as simple as when your clients *rave* about your work. Of course that's part of the problem these days; we see a lot of consumers raving about mediocre or boring work, but yeah. Personally, I think that if there is any doubt in the first place, that's not a good sign. If you don't know if you're ready or qualified, there's a chance you might not be.
You gotta have confidence and consistency. You should be confident that the clients will LOVE your work. You should be confident that even if the light changes, or if the schedule goes crazy, you'll still get great images. Images that consistently match the quality of work that your portfolio implies you're capable of...
Take care,
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
However, I also agree with you that if someone puts their work out there in a public form, be it a blog or a website, (although some people do protect their facebook accounts) ...it's fair game and if we want to critique it, we surely can.
I'm just usually hesitant to talk behind someone's back, lest that be happening to me on some other forum, and heaven forbid it's brides doing the talking, not fellow photographers. I guess you could say I kinda believe in karma like that.
Either way, I agree that it's 100% subjective and people are welcome to not pass judgment until they see images. I just wanted to point out that images or not, it's certainly happening. OFTEN. And that's the real issue, in my opinion...
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Hi Matt,
Yes I agree it's happening. fortunately and unfortunately it will continue to happen. I say fortunately because do you really want the BWPS (Bureau of Wedding Photography Standards) to come into being? To be clear....NOT ME!
The people who are working hard to improve their skills don't need any encouragement to continue. Those who don't care or have no clue should be put on notice.
As for talking behind someones back.............I understand your issue here but I don't view this as malicious gossip but as a discussion of what is being presented as professional work. I, you, we really can't address each and everyone personally who's work is not up our subjective standards of what we feel is acceptable. We can how ever discuss it here, which is in the open. We are not whispering in the dark.
My web site and e-mail address use my real name. I see you are using your real name as well. I and you are hiding from no one.
Heaven forbid it's brides.............This will certainly happen. It's called free speech.
Sam
Now, having an actual bureau in charge of that standard, you're right, NO THANK YOU. :-P
Just my personal observation, of course.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum