Length to Keep Files
ssimmonsphoto
Registered Users Posts: 424 Major grins
My husband and I were doing business planning late, late the other night (never a good thing) and he asked me how long I keep files for. Umm... forever?!? Given that I'm a relative newcomer to the field and, therefore, don't have more than 1.5TB worth of images stored, it hasn't been an issue. But I am coming up on the point that my 1.5TB drive is full. So, there in lies my question for those of you that have been at this much longer than me.
- How long do you keep your RAW files for?
- How long do you keep the edited JPGs? (I give my clients a disc of images. Let's not get in to that though.)
- If you hang on to them, how to you store them? External? At what point do you deem them old enough to move to the external?
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Comments
1. Only as long as needed to make sure there's a back-up for a specific image. If being used on the website, the RAW file stays intact. When I get bored of THAT PARTICULAR IMAGE and only have one of equal value to replace it, then it gets the boot. I never keep RAW files of weddings per se. Once final delivery has been made and the bride and groom sign off on acceptance, they get 86'd.
2. Refer to the last sentence in #1. AS soon as I know everyone involved is happy, then I happily clean house.
3. I have 2(ea) 1TB externals (because I used to save everything) so storage is not as much an issue as I just can't stand wading through a bunch of stuff.
Anyway, may be non-conventional....but it's how I manage things. KISS.
(Keep It Simple Stupid...when referring to MYSELF.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
www.tednghiem.com
For one wedding that I'd rather erase from my own memory (a Bridezilla beyond all Bridezillas,) I actually did erase every file and smash the discs after two years, so if I ever hear from her again, there will be no files to work with.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
So you're all saying that we're probably out of luck by this point, eh?
My site 365 Project
What we're saying is that THIS is part of what has severely damaged the industry. This aspect of "digital delivery", where consumers get comforted by the *idea* that they have a copy of the image files, or the *idea* that their images will be online forever, ...and what this leads to is indecision, procrastination, and in the end, neglected or forgotten memories.
Which is why I take the initiative. People lead busy lives, so I take it upon myself to make products for them. You might think this is a terrible idea and you might stick with the "wait until they pick their favorites" method, but TRUST ME, you're shooting your business in the foot and inadvertently depriving clients of their memories. And the bottom line for me is this- every product that I've ever made for my clients without their input, they've loved. If it's a high-end album, then yeah I'll give them a deadline and say hey, your input is due by this date or I'll print the album the way it is. Some clients get off their butts and send me input, and that's great, and some clients don't and that's fine too. As I said, they're always happy in the end. Or even if they're slightly bummed about one small detail, it's still way better than if NEVER got around to getting their product, period.
(/RANT)
ANYWAYS, after that little rant, here's a more direct reply to the subject at hand:
In theory, every photographer worth their salt should keep their "negatives" forever. Here's a quick breakdown of my workflow. I do also offer "workflow coaching" to local So Cal people who are really struggling with things, but in a nutshell:
* Sort orginals- keepers and rejects. The rejects get deleted after final product delivery, or sooner if they're complete junk from a smaller non-wedding job.
* The keepers are, in my contract, kept for 2 years after the wedding date.
* It is important to put a LEGAL cap on how long you promise you'll keep your images. I don't need to get elaborate with "what if" situations, anyone with a brain will know you've got to cover your butt from a legal standpoint.
* Theoretically however, as I said, you ought to keep a copy of your files "forever"... Personally I consume about 1 TB per year, as someone who shoots full-time, 12 megapixels, sometimes RAW sometimes JPG.
1 TB per year, with backup, is 2 TB per year plus online "cloud" hosting of JPG proof files. So really, I'm paying $80 per 1 TB drive, $99 per year for SmugMug, and don't forget storage will of course get cheaper and cheaper. But hey, if you want to just assume that megapixels will go higher and higher, maybe that number will balance out a little. Either way, I'm thinking $250 per year that you're in business. For any professional, that's no problem.
Good luck!
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
Agreed. I'm a backup freak...Digital Foci on site, cards backed up on location, discs burned before bed, my primary editing computer never goes on line, and I end up with four sets before any editing can even begin. Two computers, discs, cards, external drives, and on line backup. Read too many horror stories when making the switch from film to digital...
But that said, they always get real products from me, meaning prints or an album. I have begun to take the approach Matt Saville describes and do the album design without their input. It's in the contract too...if they do not give me their input, they will get the album I designed after a designated time.
They have three months to tell me favorites after their gallery goes up...No one ever meets that deadline, so I go ahead and design the album. So far, doing this for the last six or seven weddings, everyone has been happy with the initial design and only changed one or two photos, and these have been in a collage page of a large amount of reception photos.
And the albums are so much prettier than when they pick the pictures by themselves!
I agree with MMMatt.......but I do 3 Hdd's........just never know when someone will come to ya and say our house burned, do you have any copies of our wedding from 50yrs ago.......it happens.
If it doen't go to the trash bin when I cull a shoot....then it is saved for eternity.....that is my eternity.......after I'm dead...........dead and gone...(there'll be one child born to carry on...)..then I have no real physical control but if my wishes are not followed then I reserve the right to HAUNT...........................
I still have film from over 30yrs ago.....
In our case, we did not get a "digital delivery." The photog gave us a full set of 5x7 (maybe 4x6) proofs which were ours to do with as we chose, but we were supposed to choose a number of them to have him make into an album. We framed some of the proofs, and we have a couple of larger prints that hang on the wall as well as other prints that we ordered for ourselves and other family members, we just never got around to having the album made. So we do have "some" tangible memories of the wedding. To be honest, our guy didn't need any help from us, he's a heluva lot busier and more expensive now than he was back in 2003. My sister was married in 2008 and looked at using the same guy, but he was way out of her budget.
To be honest, I have no idea if our photographer shot digital or film at the time. I know he shoots digital now, but at the time he was just transitioning from PJ to weddings and so we got him at quite a bargain. He'd be quite out of our budget now, if we were just getting married now. But anyway, back then DSLRs weren't quite as omnipresent as they are now, so he may still have been shooting film. I wasn't that into it at the time and didn't pay much attention to his gear. I had other things on my mind.
My site 365 Project
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
And... for those who like optical media, get a dual density burner. Well worth the dough.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
I just stopped burning DVD's of *everything*, because I felt it was a waste. A cloud is a more valuable, secure, space-saving storage method. I don't have enough storage space to pile up hundreds of DVD's each year, for the (hopefully) decade or three that I am in this business...
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
after a year or two I used to release the negatives for mainly two reasons: 1- after 6-7 months noone ever ordered prints,
2- responsibility I wasn't paid for
now with digital I do the same thing but after a couple of months instead of 2 years.
to Matthew Saville: don't put anything in the contract unless they (specifically) ask
Also do NOT trust any DVD/CD , if you really want to save then use hard disks and keep'em in a separate location.
But again this is "work" we're not paid for. 1-2 years and give the negatives/files and get a receipt.
That said the album usually concludes the relationship (since no reprints are to be sold with digital anymore, the same goes for the reception shots that I don't even cover anymore -unless they ask of course-)
I'd like to repeat:
do not write in the contract that the negatives/files will be released after a year or two! If something happens we could say goodbye to the revenue of that wedding plus damages. And with digital there are a lot of things that can go wrong.
about the format I can only tell what I do (but that's just me)
I shoot raw and then I select the keepers and save resizing 3000x2000 300dpi jpegs and put everything in a sub-folder called "selected". That folder for me is the equivalent of the "negatives" , therefore I delete the raw files right after the album is printed and delivered
after a couple of months I give the DVD with the folder with the recommendation (in writing) to duplicate it periodically. With that I'm done.
Of course I keep the jpegs in the external hard disks but I'm not responsible anymore.
simply put there are no words to be used.
we are professionals and we supposed to know what we are doing. In Court any "word" you put in the contract about that will be most likely "ignored" .
just like a publisher illegally publishing our work and then in court trying to defend himself saying that he didn't know . Of course he knew, that's his job. and the Judge knows that, very well.
The moment you promise to release the negatives you automatically imply that you'll do that "professionally".
But if the contract will "concentrate" in the album only then the "negatives" will be something extra.
in other words the service will be about the album, only.
I'm not saying to promise the releasing of the digital files to them after two years, I'm saying, if you say you'll hold onto them for 2 years in case they need anything else done, but you end up losing all backups and such.. what then?
Personally I'm kinda like you. I really only require them to get an album and I give them unedited jpegs to make reprints from for themselves. If they want me to edit them they have to have them printed through me (which is more expensive obviously). But, I dont count on them having prints made - hence the album requirement.
More about the actual topic of this thread: I plan to keep my edited jpegs/keepers forever. Space is cheap. And happy clients are always good business. Like Art said, if someone wants their wedding pictures 50 years down the road because their house burned down, I definitely want to be able to provide them with that if I can. Imagine the referrals I would get after that! I would also be like 69-70 years old.. not sure if I'll still be shooting weddings then haha.
Here is how I word it.
I figure if I am going to archive files indefinately, the people who take advantage of that will have to pay for it. and I never give anyone the RAW files, just the final edited jpgs, but I keep ALL RAW files, my xmp files from the ones I edited, and the final jpgs.
Matt
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Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
this "negatives" thing has always been some sort of "grey area" in our practice. One thing for sure : there is no money in the reprint service after a year with film and after a month with digital. Ask any photographer if they ever sold a print after the fact. But there are a lot of money involved in the storage business, if done properly. is it worth the effort? no.
In here I'm just trying say to don't put in writing that we'll keep the negatives available: it's risky, very.
legally there are two types of contracts :
1. work for hire : the images are not ours to keep so the problem about the storage is solved
2. Album and prints as the destination of the service: the "negatives" are ours to keep (or not) not being part of the deal.
let's keep it in that way.
I keep the RAW's of delivered images forever. Though my contract says 1 year after delivery (just to give me an out from someone coming back to me 70 years down the road). RAW's of images I do not deliver get deleted once the couple is happy.
Forever. Though, again, I only promise to have them for a year.
I have externals with all my stuff on them. When the 'current' external drive filles up, I go through and move the oldest stuff on the drive (say, anything more than 1 year old) to an 'archive' external... External drives are big and cheap... if I'm busy enough that I'm filling 2TB external drives, I'm probably making enough money to spend another hundred dollars on drives.
Here is a wedding website I created for a customer as a value-add. Comments appreciated.
Founding member of The Professional Photography Forum as well.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
I deliver full-res JPGs that are processed to look best on a computer screen. I also sell prints. People buy them, because they know the print I produce is going to be better than what they can.
People routinely buy their albums after their first anniversary... though most are about 6 months after the wedding.
Here is a wedding website I created for a customer as a value-add. Comments appreciated.
Founding member of The Professional Photography Forum as well.
My normal workflow was thus for a job with my name on it.
Shoot RAW (various sizes)
Download to 750GB My Book (shared across a network via USB2 > PC > Router)
Burn archive DVD of untouched raw files
When actively editing a job (I edit in a calibrated 17 inch laptop, yeah yeah...that is what clipping warning and histograms are for) I transfer the job to a 40GB partition of my internal hard drive)
Edit in LR3 export .jpgs to smugmug AND 750GB HDD, when job is complete delete from partition, make DVDs for client)
So although it is S-L-O-W I have cloud based (for editied .jpgs), archival optical and HDD storage of files.
MY NEW workflow model centers around a brand new LG http://www.lg.com/us/computer-products/network-storage/LG-network-attached-storage-N2R1DD2.jsp
2 x 1 TB NAS with DVD/RW (delivered soon)
so hopefully my new workflow will look like this,
Dowload to NAS via USB (maybe eSATA card reader eventually)
Burn archival DVD from internal NAS
share across network from NAS > router
export to smugmug and NAS
backup to 750GB my book via USB > router
depending on how good the burning software is I may make DVDs directly from the NAS if it is poo I'll use Nero on one of my networked machines.
This will allow cloud (for edited .jpgs), HDD, HDD backup, and optical archival storage with a LOT less pushing files around.
I plan on running the NAS in Raid 1 and swapping out the 7200 RPM 3.5" disks when they get full, this allows further redundancy and security over the long term.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum