Paying to be an intern?

JayClark79

Has anyone ever or heard of anyone ever paying to be an intern? There is a local pro photographer that is looking for an intern... He responded to me and all of the other interested people with a long email but here is part of it

"The internship is a bartered relationship. My time and training expertise for the interns time for assistance and help. I normally charge over $100 an hour to train people one on one, and in return I look for the intern giving back their time at the rate of $10 an hour....Yes...that's a 10 to 1 ratio. Keeping in mind that most of that time isn't as much grunt work, but actual on set assisting and learning as well."

Again this is only part of the email..

But doesnt this mean he wants me to pay him $10 an hour for me to be his intern?? Or am i reading this wrong?

Sam

No Jay,

It means he wants to barter his time / expertise for your help / assistance / labor. He is assigning a value of $100.00 per hour for his time, and assigning a value of $10.00 per hour for your time.

This means for every hour he teaches you one on one you owe him 10 hours of work.

How could anyone turn down this deal?

Sam

JayClark79

Sam wrote: »

This means for every hour he teaches you one on one you owe him 10 hours of work.

How could anyone turn down this deal?

Sam

WOW... GULP... does that mean every 10 hours of work i give him he owes me $100?

Art Scott

In the old days....a family would pay the master artist either a set fee for a set time period or month
fee for the duration of time their child spent with teh master........in modern times apprenticeships are
still around...usually with in unions, such as heat and air or various other construction type jobs...the
apprentice still pays to be an apprentice but also earns a very low wage....In the business world thru
universities..came internships (as it was explained to me) the intern works for FREE ......but if the intern
does not do well then not only can the intern be fired ( and it will be a permanent personnel record on the intern)
but the interns grade suffers at the university..........usually a failing grade.............

What this photog is saying is...he gives you 1 hour of instruction and for that you OWE him 10 hours of work.....
from what you posted it is simply a barter....instruction (valued at $100 per hour) for labor (valued at $10 per hour).

In the end he will be able to show that if money were actually exchanged he would be owed XXX amount of dollars...at the end of the internship,
the intern never comes out ahead or even.....the company offering the internship always comes out ahead.............

Internships are real big things with Marketing students and law students.......you may be working for free but with the right firms to put on a resume...
You may have worked for free, in a sense but you worked for the best of the best.......Internships are huge thing with in the Govt also.....tons of college
and high school students want to intern for the Prez, various senators and such cause it looks good on a resume........but there is no Pay for the INTERN.

JayClark79

This makes a lot of sense thanks for explaining this guys.

This photog is really one of the best photographers in the state, he does all high-end stuff, from glamor to weddings, all big dollar stuff.... his current intern is leaving because she just got offered a job with disney!

Iv got my fingers crossed!

mercphoto

Art Scott wrote: »

Internships are real big things with Marketing students and law students.......you may be working for free but with the right firms to put on a resume...
You may have worked for free, in a sense but you worked for the best of the best.......Internships are huge thing with in the Govt also.....tons of college
and high school students want to intern for the Prez, various senators and such cause it looks good on a resume........but there is no Pay for the INTERN.

I work in hi-tech (semiconductor). Our summer college interns are almost always a paid position. The brighter students will sometimes get more than one internship offer to choose from as well.

Its all a supply and demand thing. There are so many people wanting to become photojournalists or professional photographers that the established professionals and the news organizations don't NEED to pay an intern in order to fill an internship slot, so they don't. Things are different in my industry.

Angelo

I'd venture a guess he's in violation of State employment laws.

mercphoto

Angelo wrote: »

I'd venture a guess he's in violation of State employment laws.

I'm actually not in opposition to what the guy is doing, but you could be right. In the least he's probably dancing a fine line with respect to taxes. Especially since he explicitly put a dollar value on what he is offering!

Angelo

Apprenticships are governed by the Federal Aprrentice Act (1937) and generally may only be administered, with strict guidelines, by

a) a government agency
b) a trade union (with pay)
c) as administered by a state accredited college (in exchange for school credit and not to exceed 8 hours per week)


http://www.delawareworks.com/industrialaffairs/services/LaborLawEnforcementInfo.shtml

mercphoto

What's the difference between apprenticship and internship? I can guarantee you our interns are NOT union.

JayClark79

Well this has no school credits tied to it.... Its just experiance lol..... At this point im just glad its not me paying him $10 an hour lol

Angelo

To Bill:

nothing (basically)

an intern is fulfilling training and education directly related to personal, professional goals.

an apprentice is fulfilling training as an assistant to a master craftsman, directly related to personal, professional goals.

and interns wouldn't belong to a union, UNLESS, they are training for a unionized job eq: electricians, carpenters, etc. that's where you see more "apprentices"

and as you first stated - your firm utilizes "college interns"

Angelo

JayClark79 wrote: »

Well this has no school credits tied to it.... Its just experiance lol..... At this point im just glad its not me paying him $10 an hour lol

I'd bet dollars to donuts this guy is breaking the law

Richard

Angelo wrote: »

I'd bet dollars to donuts this guy is breaking the law

You're probably right on the legalities, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad deal. I suppose it all depends on how much of a learning experience it turns out to be. If all you do is lug lighting gear around, then it is exploitation. If you are taught how to use the gear, that's a different matter.

Angelo

Richard wrote: »

You're probably right on the legalities, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad deal. I suppose it all depends on how much of a learning experience it turns out to be. If all you do is lug lighting gear around, then it is exploitation. If you are taught how to use the gear, that's a different matter.

absolutely but I seriously doubt anyone has enough to offer to warrant a 10:1 ratio. Seems clear to me who will be on the losing end of the equation.

He "normally" charges $100 an hour for his training time? Yeah, uh huh. I have a bridge for sale in NY I want to show you

mercphoto

Angelo wrote: »

He "normally" charges $100 an hour for his training time? Yeah, uh huh. I have a bridge for sale in NY I want to show you

That's a good point! But the better question to ask is, he might charge $100 an hour for training, but how many hours of training has he ever sold at that price? How many buyers?

Angelo

mercphoto wrote: »

That's a good point! But the better question to ask is, he might charge $100 an hour for training, but how many hours of training has he ever sold at that price? How many buyers?

indeed

JayClark79

Interviewing for an internship this week
Ok im interviewing for an internship on Tuesday with one of the best photographers in the state. I do not have a printed portfolio of any kind..

Should I take my lap top with a slideshow that I can create?

Or

Is a laptop portfolio tacky, and I should just show up without one?

rsquared

Ditch the laptop... Find your best ten or twelve pictures, find a local lab that can print them today or tomorrow as 8x10, and find a local office supply or arts store that stocks an 8.5x11 portfolio similar to this http://www.amazon.com/Prat-Presentation-Portfolio-Multi-ring-Protectors/dp/B0000AE697/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=office-products&qid=1280078284&sr=1-4

Presentation is everything. You've got two days, do it up right, and don't go in there empty handed.

Sam

Jay,

I would recommend being honest and upfront. You don't have a portfolio, but you do have a lap top, take it with you. Don't make it the main emphasis.

The main point isn't where your skill is now but your desire to work hard and take advantage of this opportunity.

I wouldn't create a slide show. I would take a limited number of your best images and put them in folders by category. Whatever software you use to show the images make sure it's full screen.

Good luck!!!

Sam

JayClark79

I got the internship!!! WOOO Im psyched! Im assisting with him at a wedding this weekend, can't wait!... He said I can not be paid for this wedding because the client did not pay for a 2 photographer package, but he wants me to to get to know how he does things so I can get paid at any up coming weddings where the client has paid for 2 photographers.

davev

Jay, I don't know whether to be happy or sad for you.
Are you going to this wedding to observe, or to work?
I'm sure you've heard the old expression "No pay, no play"
It looks to me like he's hired a second shooter for 1/10th of the cost.
To a point, this is fine, if you have no clue as to what you're doing with a camera.
As this goes along, and you become the second shooter, (more or less) keep an
eye on what shots the clients are buying.
If the time comes that a good amount of your shots are being picked, the wage package
will need to be renegotiated.

For your sake, I hope he's a great teacher, and not just a great photographer.
The two don't always go hand in hand.

One more question.
Who owns the rights to the shots that you take while shooting with him?
I'm guessing he does, so he can sell them to the client.

Sam

JayClark79 wrote: »

I got the internship!!! WOOO Im psyched! Im assisting with him at a wedding this weekend, can't wait!... He said I can not be paid for this wedding because the client did not pay for a 2 photographer package, but he wants me to to get to know how he does things so I can get paid at any up coming weddings where the client has paid for 2 photographers.

Just to clarify, are you assisting or second shooting, or both?

I would think that you spending 8 to 10 hours for an evaluation of the photographer is reasonable. I also think that for the photographer to spend an hour with you after the event, one on one, would be a reasonable thing on his part. (In keeping with your original post)

This would show he values your commitment and he is willing to reciprocate.

Interns usually get taken advantage of. You need to make sure your not abused!

Basically it's up to you, but I would make sure your happy with the arrangement, your getting what you want out of it and your being treated fairly.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Sam

chuckinsocal

JayClark79 wrote: »

I got the internship!!! WOOO Im psyched! Im assisting with him at a wedding this weekend, can't wait!... He said I can not be paid for this wedding because the client did not pay for a 2 photographer package, but he wants me to to get to know how he does things so I can get paid at any up coming weddings where the client has paid for 2 photographers.

Whoa!!! This brings back some bad memories. I once went to work for a guy (non photography related) who promised me excellent pay for my work. But, when it came time for him to pay me, he always had an excuse for why he couldn't pay me in full and could only pay me 70 or 80% of the promised amount. The third time this happened I took what I could get, turned around, and walked out the door for ever.

I hope you are not in a similar situation. I'd suggest you keep your eyes and ears wide open so you don't get sucked in to a bad deal.

Icebear

If I had an opportunity to work for one of the best wedding/event photographers in our area (Washington DC) with the promise of some mentoring, you bet your sweet ass I'd do it for free. What's the worst that could likely happen? It doesn't work and I walk, having certainly learned something. What's the best? I learn fast, he/she likes what I do, and I get more work as an assistant, on assignments I'd never in my lifetime have a prayer of getting otherwise.

Good luck with your internship. Be a big sponge.

chrisjohnson

JayClark79 wrote: »

I got the internship!!! WOOO Im psyched! Im assisting with him at a wedding this weekend, can't wait!... He said I can not be paid for this wedding because the client did not pay for a 2 photographer package, but he wants me to to get to know how he does things so I can get paid at any up coming weddings where the client has paid for 2 photographers.

Glad you got your opportunity.

Don't worry too much about the money, worry about the learning.

It is not unusual for an "intern/apprentice" to work for free or even pay to learn.

I have been training interns for years. In the beginning it costs me a lot because they take my time and can't do anything productive. It might sound nice to have an extra pair of hands but when those hands are eager and ambitious and never want to sit around doing nothing, it can be irritating. The good ones will either start becoming useful and then leave because someone is prepared to pay them properly, or I have to offer them a proper job with proper pay because they really have potential. This is the only reason anyone takes on an intern. So if you want to get paid properly you need to show you are genuinely useful. Learning the way he likes to do things is a good start because your pay is coming out of his earnings and he obviously thinks the way he does things "works".

Be glad you got the chance to learn from a successful professional in your field. Not everybody does. In a few years you will recognize that schooling is the most basic of starts. Your first "job" will influence you for the rest of your life and you will readily admit that you would or even should have paid for the experience.