MOB slipped one past me!
mmmatt
Registered Users Posts: 1,347 Major grins
I'm a little mad at myself right now. I normally don't make a ton of profit on prints. I set them at a 50% markup, so for common sizes I only make a buck or two tops. I also like to use the bayphoto printing service because I like the idea of the hand done color corrections on each file. this is how I want my work displayed and the small profit is supposed to cover my yearly smugmug fee.
However, I am still working a few jobs where I provide 4x6 proofs and I print those with ezprints because of cost and I like to see the prints off my original files with an average printer to see how my processing looks in that scenario.
So I went to order my proofs and for whatever reason, smugmug makes you switch the entire shopping cart over to buy prints from the other vendor. This is now something that ticks me off because as I was trying to figure out how I can use my profits to buy prints, actually I found out you cant, and I left the gallery over on ezprints and it defaulted to my cost. a day or two later I get an email saying that someone ordered $100 worth of prints and when I log in I see that it was through ezprints and at my cost. Even some larger enlargements that would have paid me a little bit of profit. I'm not so upset about the 30 or $40 I lost in the deal but now my prints aren't being printed with the best quality available and it burns my butt that even though I was notified a minute after the order was place, it was in progress as soon as the credit card was charge leaving me without recourse.
Why can't smugmug let me order whatever I want without having to switch my whole gallery over? Upsetting to say the least, I had to notify my bride to tell her mother that the prints weren't going to be of the quality that I claim in my literature and also admit that I go as cheap as possible on her proofs! grrrr.
Matt
However, I am still working a few jobs where I provide 4x6 proofs and I print those with ezprints because of cost and I like to see the prints off my original files with an average printer to see how my processing looks in that scenario.
So I went to order my proofs and for whatever reason, smugmug makes you switch the entire shopping cart over to buy prints from the other vendor. This is now something that ticks me off because as I was trying to figure out how I can use my profits to buy prints, actually I found out you cant, and I left the gallery over on ezprints and it defaulted to my cost. a day or two later I get an email saying that someone ordered $100 worth of prints and when I log in I see that it was through ezprints and at my cost. Even some larger enlargements that would have paid me a little bit of profit. I'm not so upset about the 30 or $40 I lost in the deal but now my prints aren't being printed with the best quality available and it burns my butt that even though I was notified a minute after the order was place, it was in progress as soon as the credit card was charge leaving me without recourse.
Why can't smugmug let me order whatever I want without having to switch my whole gallery over? Upsetting to say the least, I had to notify my bride to tell her mother that the prints weren't going to be of the quality that I claim in my literature and also admit that I go as cheap as possible on her proofs! grrrr.
Matt
My Smugmug site
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
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Comments
One solution, or partial solution is to have a proof delay. That will at least allow you to see what was ordered, and requires your approval before order fulfillment. The maximum delay I think is 7 days so after 7 days they will fulfill the order.
Also the MOB may not really have put one over on you but saw the great pricing and ordered away.
Sam
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Sweet Andy, thanks! I figured it was my bad since I forgot to switch it back so didn't bother the support crew. How do we handle the cost difference? Why can't I just order whatever I want without changing the whole gallery? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to use both vendors!
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
yeah... the delay is a good call but if I'd of thought to add a delay I would have marked the prints up a hundo or so! Actually though... that is a gallery thing and not a pricing thing though so you are right. I'm going to make that change now and buy myself a couple of days next time.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Thanks for the input guys.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
Matt, our heroes can reprint your order at Bay... is that what you want? I'm sorry we answered incorrectly from the help desk. Another reply coming shortly. Standby.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
1.) You're gypping yourself AND your clients by only charging 50% markup.
Sure, you can have Bay do the color correction, and it's a nice automated process that sorta runs itself, so you may not feel a need to have a huge markup. But you're still throwing time and money away. What if they order an 11x14 of a very formal portrait, aren't you going to spend 30-60 minutes retouching and perfecting that photo, color correction excluded? If YES, then you're ripping yourself off by only profiting $3.38 for that 11x14. Even if you get the retouching done in 30 minutes, you're paying yourself minimum wage for a skill that took years to develop. If NO, then you're doing a disservice to your clients by even allowing them to order an image that is to be printed so large without a professional touch. (Color correction is NOT the end-all when it comes to "how you want your work displayed"...)
Bottom line- Even if this is not your main source of income, or even if you don't believe in the back-end markup business model, you should have at least a 5-10x markup on your prints. GET PAID for the quality of work you do.
2.) Even if you don't care about money, you're harming the industry.
Hey, maybe you're just doing this part time, mostly for friends, etc. That's cool, that's fine. I understand that you don't want to feel like you're ripping people off with print sales. Or, I also understand if your business model is simply more up-front, and you believe that the back-end print sales business model is not the best way to go for event photography. I agree wholeheartedly!
However, 50% is still too low. Especially if you're calling yourself a professional; the cheap prints are only going to help perpetuate the expectations among brides /clients.
True, everybody knows what a 4x6 costs at Costo these days. 10-20 cents. And yes, they're going to balk at your prices if for example you were to stop offering 4x6's altogether and start your 5x7's at $100, or 100x markup... I'm not saying you should adopt the hardcore, portrait studio business model. I'm just saying that 5-10x markup is a bare minimum for professionals. It makes the whole process worth your time, and helps to separate the professionals from the amateurs. The more professionals set their prices at a respectable level, the more clients will UNDERSTAND that a lot of time and effort goes into producing that print, and more importantly into the image that is printed.
This is one thing that I have been hoping to discuss on a grander scale with professional photographers- There are two different business models in freelance photography- portraits and events. (Not counting commercial etc. photography, which is a completely different clientele and business model) Basically, a portrait studio MUST charge a ton for their prints, because they CAN'T charge a ton for the sitting fee. Most portrait studios only charge a few hundred bucks for a sitting, but end up profiting a thousand bucks or three in the end. Because it is ALL about the delivered products. And yet as an event photographer, if you charged $100 for a 5x7 of the ring bearer picking his nose, nobody's going to buy that print... Plus you spend HOURS up front with the client, taking care of them etc. so your time is worth a lot more before the wedding than after. So you make a considerable sum up front, and then any print sales on the back-end are gravy.
But either way, please just bump them up a bit. Pay yourself more than minimum wage for the retouching and processing time you put into each sale... Your SmugMug doesn't just cost you $150 a year. It "costs" you hours and hours each year to maintain your galleries, create new ones and upload, set things up, take care of client orders that go awry, etc. etc. Don't make the mistake that countless amateurs-turned-pros all make: They take everything at face value, and don't sit down and do the math that considers what their TIME is worth. Your time adds up much quicker than you may realize...
3.) Turn on proof delay, to solve the problem in general.
As others have mentioned, this is the simple answer to your initial problem. Set a 5-7 day proof delay and check each order before it goes through. I get a handful of orders each year where a customer completely screws things up, and I just email or call them, explain the situation, and then email the lab and ask them to cancel the order. The client is usually happy to re-submit their order, because they're either going to get WAY better prints, or they're going to save a bundle.
And again, this comes back to #1- You're spending more time on this than you think, so 50% markup is not gonna cut it. It takes a few minutes per order to deal with the proofing delay, client correspondence, etc. An order that big could take you hours to retouch, if it includes a lot of formal portraits; and you're making $30-40? Like I said. You're either doing a disservice to the clients by NOT fully retouching the images, or you're ripping yourself off by doing so much work for so little profit, OR you're doing a disservice to the rest of the industry by calling yourself a professional and selling prints so cheaply, period.
4.) Just suck it up and order your prints from Bay Photo, period, especially if they're going into the hands of clients eventually.
Again, this gets back to the "digital VS physical delivery" discussion we've been having. Your ultimate goal as a professional photographer should be to have clients NOT value that disc so much, and NOT worry too much about making their own prints. Because honestly, they'll probably never get around to it, and TONS of couples out there are slowly neglecting their precious memories as they collect dust on a disc or hard drive somewhere...
If you slowly work your way in the direction of emphasizing physical product delivery, you'll get more and more clients booking you for THOSE reasons, not for the disc. Then you won't have to worry much at all about people printing crap at the drug store. Lastly, the clients will actually have something to show for all the money they spent, and will be able to revisit those memories more often and in much more impressive ways...
Of course, this is just my opinionated opinion!
Take care,
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
I put pro pricing on each of my accounts...both EZ and Bay Photo. That way, I don't have to worry about this kind of problem. If I have an order that I'm doing for a friend...at cost for a family member, then I find out which ones they want and I order them at my price.
I don't do a lot of free work, so it's not that much of a problem for me.
I assume by MOB, you mean Mother of the Bride. For a minute there I thought you had problems with the Mafia...well just for a short minute...
I took a memory test today...found out that I'm nearly a memory master...that test lied.
Have a good one...hope you get everything straightened out.
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
Photos are becoming a commodity. Anyone with $10k can drop it into equipment, set it fully auto and take 'good enough' photos for whatever they want. The cameras have become smarter, so the user doesn't have to be. Just look at all the professional publications that no longer have a photography staff. There are many that now get all their photos from user submissions. I've seen magazine covers created with user submissions.
So what will the pros do? Time to trim down overhead and get a day job. After all, that's how your competition is doing it.
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Nay...not so. The real wedding pros...the talented ones...will always have a job...because, it's not the camera that sells their work, it's their ability behind the lens that makes the difference. High end wedding money will go to the best, talented professional photographers, the ones with a business plan, just like it always has.
Photographers that call themselves pros and don't charge enough to make a living on it will find themselves in a constant struggle to make it...complaining here about the unfair competition...but really...the unfair competition is only for low end work...$1200 and below. I've yet to hear $2500 and up wedding photographers complain about the newbies cutting in on their work.
In the end, it's all about those who have the talent and an effective business plan. Those who do will make it and those who don't will struggle.
Well, that my rant...
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
Here a lot of the pros have started teaching in addition to keeping their businesses. They find it to be a good source of referrals and extra income. And the number of people wanting to learn is increasing with every slr sold.
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