Observations on the new Simple uploader changes

jfriend

OK, I played with the latest version of the simple uploader. Here are the things I found or suggest:

1. The drag zone when drag/dropping new images into the uploader should be extended to the whole window browser, not just the central portion that shows the uploader overlay. If when drag/dropping an image, you just miss the central area, you lose EVERYTHING you've put in there so far because the browser window loads that JPEG image and there is no way to go back to what you had. This is bad behavior. One slight slip and you lose everything.
2. When I first open the new uploader, the Select Files/Folder button and Skip Duplicates drop-down are disabled and do not become enabled until I re-open the uploader again.
3. When I click on the "What else can I upload?" link, it opens a new page in place in the current window. Shouldn't this open in a new window/tab so I don't lose my place?
4. After uploading some images it says "5 files uploaded" and it's underlined. It should either not be underlined or it should be a clickable link so it matches the underline style everywhere else in this UI.
5. The scroll wheel doesn't work on the scrolling list of upload images unless that browser window has the current focus (on Windows Vista). This is not how other browser controls or other OS windows work. In other windows, the scroll wheel operates on whatever scrolling list the mouse is over regardless of focus.
6. When you drag/drop a new image into the list and the list already has more items in it than are visible (thus it's scrollable), the list should scroll to the bottom of the list to make the new entry visible to confirm for you that it got added. Without this, there is NO easy confirmation that anything happened when you drag/dropped something in.
7. You have this nice indicator in the left hand column. The images that have been uploaded show nice and clearly with the green checkmark. But, the other indicators are not as easy to tell apart at a glance. The Duplicate Exists indicator looks like a grayed out something that is not discernible. The Queued indicator is also pretty faint. Why not make these easily discernible and obvious, particularly using color so we can more easily see at a glance what is left to go.
8. Why not let us sort by the upload indicator column so we can collect all the like types together (particularly to see what uploads are still queued)?
9. Apparently, the uploader does not check file size or report a meaningful error if you try to upload too large a file. I have a pro account (file size limit 24MB). I drag a 28MB image in. It accepts it. It starts uploading. 5 minutes later, it reports: "There was an error uploading: Bad or unsupported file type". Two problems here. First, it should have identified that the image was too large for my account type before it uploaded it and then told me that it was too large. Second, after it uploads the whole darn thing, it then it gives my a wrong and misleading error message. There is nothing wrong with the file type (it's a regular JPEG). The only issue with the file is that it's too large.
10. Once the uploader is open, it won't recenter itself in the browser window so if I need to resize the browser window to make it smaller while it's uploading, the upload area won't reposition itself into the visible area of the window. It stays stuck where it was so there's no way for me to resize the browser window to get rid of all the excess space in it and still see the entire upload portion.
11. When I have one image in the list that reported an upload error, the "Remove All" button is inoperative. There is no way to clear the list.
12. After uploading one image that ended with an error (image was too large), the bottom status says: "Time Remaining: uploads pending", but there is no upload pending at this point, just one upload error in the list.
13. What about updating the display of the dimmed out gallery behind the upload dialog? You've got it there and dimmed to show a representation of the gallery that you're uploading to, but you don't update it when images are uploaded. Why show it if it's not up to date?
14. If you change the "Allow Duplicates" to "Skip Duplicates" while a duplicate image is uploading, the progress bar at the bottom of the dialog gets messed up (it stops moving at all) and then when done, it says things like Overall Progress 2/1 and the Green checkmark never appears after the upload is complete.
15. I haven't tested any of the connectivity error handling issues which were most of what I posted about here.

Andy

jfriend wrote: »

OK, I played with the latest version of the HTML5 uploader. Here are the things I found or suggest:

1. The drag zone when drag/dropping new images into the uploader should be extended to the whole window browser, not just the central portion that shows the uploader overlay. If when drag/dropping an image, you just miss the central area, you lose EVERYTHING you've put in there so far because the browser window loads that JPEG image and there is no way to go back to what you had. This is bad behavior. One slight slip and you lose everything.

Don't know if this is possible, John. We'll look.

[*]When I first open the new uploader, the Select Files/Folder button and Skip Duplicates drop-down are disabled and do not become enabled until I re-open the uploader again.

Hm. Not for me. What browser, can you fully replicate?

[*]When I click on the "What else can I upload?" link, it opens a new page in place in the current window. Shouldn't this open in a new window/tab so I don't lose my place?

I like this - will ask Shizam.

[*]After uploading some images it says "5 files uploaded" and it's underlined. It should either not be underlined or it should be a clickable link so it matches the underline style everywhere else in this UI.[/quote
Good point, I'll ask Shizam

[*]The scroll wheel doesn't work on the scrolling list of upload images unless that browser window has the current focus (on Windows Vista). This is not how other browser controls or other OS windows work. In other windows, the scroll wheel operates on whatever scrolling list the mouse is over regardless of focus.
[*]When you drag/drop a new image into the list and the list already has more items in it than are visible (thus it's scrollable), the list should scroll to the bottom of the list to make the new entry visible to confirm for you that it got added. Without this, there is NO easy confirmation that anything happened when you drag/dropped something in.
[*]You have this nice indicator in the left hand column. The images that have been uploaded show nice and clearly with the green checkmark. But, the other indicators are not as easy to tell apart at a glance. The Duplicate Exists indicator looks like a grayed out something that is not discernible. The Queued indicator is also pretty faint. Why not make these easily discernible and obvious, particularly using color so we can more easily see at a glance what is left to go.
[*]Why not let us sort by the upload indicator column so we can collect all the like types together (particularly to see what uploads are still queued)?
[*]Apparently, the uploader does not check file size or report a meaningful error if you try to upload too large a file. I have a pro account (file size limit 24MB). I drag a 28MB image in. It accepts it. It starts uploading. 5 minutes later, it reports: "There was an error uploading: Bad or unsupported file type". Two problems here. First, it should have identified that the image was too large for my account type before it uploaded it and then told me that it was too large. Second, after it uploads the whole darn thing, it then it gives my a wrong and misleading error message. There is nothing wrong with the file type (it's a regular JPEG). The only issue with the file is that it's too large.
[*]Once the uploader is open, it won't recenter itself in the browser window so if I need to resize the browser window to make it smaller while it's uploading, the upload area won't reposition itself into the visible area of the window. It stays stuck where it was so there's no way for me to resize the browser window to get rid of all the excess space in it and still see the entire upload portion.
[*]When I have one image in the list that reported an upload error, the "Remove All" button is inoperative. There is no way to clear the list.
[*]After uploading one image that ended with an error (image was too large), the bottom status says: "Time Remaining: uploads pending", but there is no upload pending at this point, just one upload error in the list.
[*]What about updating the display of the dimmed out gallery behind the upload dialog? You've got it there and dimmed to show a representation of the gallery that you're uploading to, but you don't update it when images are uploaded. Why show it if it's not up to date?
[*]If you change the "Allow Duplicates" to "Skip Duplicates" while a duplicate image is uploading, the progress bar at the bottom of the dialog gets messed up (it stops moving at all) and then when done, it says things like Overall Progress 2/1 and the Green checkmark never appears after the upload is complete.
[*]I haven't tested any of the connectivity error handling issues which were most of what I posted about here.

Thanks for all of these. I've made sure the team has seen it, John!

Shizam

Yea, thanks for the suggestions and bug finds, lets see what I can do.

1) Can't do that for the whole browser, only the Java application window.

2) This is so because I'm loading the duplicate file information, if its a really huge gallery (or a slow connection) this may take a couple seconds. It should say 'fetching de-dupe' info, I'll double check.

3) We wen't back and forth on new windows vs same window. Pop-up blockers will block/warn if Java tries to open a new window and some people here felt that was a huge red flag so I'm only allowed to open a new window if you click on a link while files are uploading (so your uploads aren't canceled).

4) Das a bug, should be clickable.

5) Java

6-15) Will poke through these

jfriend

Shizam wrote: »

Yea, thanks for the suggestions and bug finds, lets see what I can do.

1) Can't do that for the whole browser, only the Java application window.

The rest of the window is Smugmug's. Can't JS there handle drag/drop events to prevent losing everything you've specified if you miss your drop zone by 1/4"? It's these kind of issues that make browser apps sub-par to regular apps in usability. No thick client app would destroy your entire state if you missed a drag/drop by 1/4". Why should a browser-based app?

Shizam wrote: »

2) This is so because I'm loading the duplicate file information, if its a really huge gallery (or a slow connection) this may take a couple seconds. It should say 'fetching de-dupe' info, I'll double check.

It was a large gallery I was using it with, but it looks busted to me. Some progress is needed. I'm not sure why one is blocked from picking images until this info is loaded. You could just delay showing whether it's a dup or actually starting the upload until you finish getting that info, but not get in the way of letting the user select their images.

Shizam wrote: »

3) We wen't back and forth on new windows vs same window. Pop-up blockers will block/warn if Java tries to open a new window and some people here felt that was a huge red flag so I'm only allowed to open a new window if you click on a link while files are uploading (so your uploads aren't canceled).

The same logic should follow once any image is in the list, even if uploading hasn't started yet because users can lose what they've specified.

Shizam wrote: »

4) Das a bug, should be clickable.

5) Java

6-15) Will poke through these

I hope you get a chance to look at 6-15 too.

rainforest1155

John,

5. You sure? I'm on Win7 and on the last Windows I used before that (Win2000), this was true, too. You have to have the windows you want to scroll in focused. That's why I have a little program that allows the scroll wheel to work regardless of the focused window. It's called Katmouse.
Maybe your mouse comes with the feature, too, but in my experience, it's no default on Windows.

Sebastian

PS: Katmouse does allow for scrolling in the Simple uploader if not focused (yet it's scrolling only a few pixels instead of one line at a time as I have set it to). I tried it in Firefox.

JanWill

Additional problem:

16. When an upload error occurs the whole upload process stops. It says retry but it actually does not. It just continues when you click pause uploading and then resume again. This is a major problem for me because often I upload over night, when I cannot always monitor if the uploading goes well.

jfriend

rainforest1155 wrote: »

John,

5. You sure? I'm on Win7 and on the last Windows I used before that (Win2000), this was true, too. You have to have the windows you want to scroll in focused. That's why I have a little program that allows the scroll wheel to work regardless of the focused window. It's called Katmouse.
Maybe your mouse comes with the feature, too, but in my experience, it's no default on Windows.

Sebastian

PS: Katmouse does allow for scrolling in the Simple uploader if not focused (yet it's scrolling only a few pixels instead of one line at a time as I have set it to). I tried it in Firefox.

I stand corrected. Mouse scrolling works among different Firefox windows without having to click in any of the windows to bring it to the front. Perhaps it isn't an OS thing, but a Firefox thing. I find it very convenient, especially when you have a large monitor with multiple windows open, you don't have to click on a window just to scroll it.

Shizam

JanWill wrote: »

Additional problem:

16. When an upload error occurs the whole upload process stops. It says retry but it actually does not. It just continues when you click pause uploading and then resume again. This is a major problem for me because often I upload over night, when I cannot always monitor if the uploading goes well.

Thanks Jan,
yea thats a known bug in the new version I'm trying to stomp on.

Sam

Shizam

jfriend wrote: »

The rest of the window is Smugmug's. Can't JS there handle drag/drop events to prevent losing everything you've specified if you miss your drop zone by 1/4"? It's these kind of issues that make browser apps sub-par to regular apps in usability. No thick client app would destroy your entire state if you missed a drag/drop by 1/4". Why should a browser-based app?

Can't do it. There is no handshaking (of the file handle) for drag and drop for the few browsers that support D&D from the file system and on top of that there probably never will be, all browsers now are insanely critical of sand boxed applications and they've all decided D&D from the file system is apocalyptic.

jfriend wrote: »

It was a large gallery I was using it with, but it looks busted to me. Some progress is needed. I'm not sure why one is blocked from picking images until this info is loaded. You could just delay showing whether it's a dup or actually starting the upload until you finish getting that info, but not get in the way of letting the user select their images.

I agree, it should say 'reading in gallery information' or something with a throbber.

jfriend wrote: »

The same logic should follow once any image is in the list, even if uploading hasn't started yet because users can lose what they've specified.

I guess it depends on how allergic you are to the appearance of the 'a pop-up has been blocked' dialog in browsers, apparently we're deathly allergic.

Sam

Shizam

jfriend wrote: »

[*]Apparently, the uploader does not check file size or report a meaningful error if you try to upload too large a file. I have a pro account (file size limit 24MB). I drag a 28MB image in. It accepts it. It starts uploading. 5 minutes later, it reports: "There was an error uploading: Bad or unsupported file type". Two problems here. First, it should have identified that the image was too large for my account type before it uploaded it and then told me that it was too large. Second, after it uploads the whole darn thing, it then it gives my a wrong and misleading error message. There is nothing wrong with the file type (it's a regular JPEG). The only issue with the file is that it's too large.

I'm working in various items from your list of suggestions/bugs but re: file sizes we actually allow a user to upload files greater than their account limit and then try to resample it. If it comes in below the account limit after resampling it stays, if not it returns an error (bad file type, yes server generated error messages suck).

http://www.smugmug.com/help/upload-photos

I'll try to setup the error so that if the file that was uploaded had a size > than your account level and an error is returned that is 'wrong file type' it shows the error as 'This file was too large to be uploaded'.

Sam

Shizam

Fixed
#4 After uploading some images it says "5 files uploaded" and it's underlined. It should either not be underlined or it should be a clickable link so it matches the underline style everywhere else in this UI.

Fixed
#12 After uploading one image that ended with an error (image was too large), the bottom status says: "Time Remaining: uploads pending", but there is no upload pending at this point, just one upload error in the list.

Also:
-increased the time it takes for an upload to have a timeout error which helps people with bad/spotty connections.
-Fixed typo in spelling of 'duplicates'
-Fixed problem where individual photos progress bar could go past 100%


Sam

SamirD

Shizam wrote: »

Can't do it. There is no handshaking (of the file handle) for drag and drop for the few browsers that support D&D from the file system and on top of that there probably never will be, all browsers now are insanely critical of sand boxed applications and they've all decided D&D from the file system is apocalyptic.

Then this is one major reason that the uploader window should just stay full screen. The one time someone messes up and their window changes, whatever 'prettiness' having the uploader in a window will quickly lose its appeal.

Personally, I don't like the windowed uploader also because I can't quickly copy the url to replicate uploader sessions (I need to run 12-16 simultaneously to max out my bandwidth).

jfriend

SamirD wrote: »

Then this is one major reason that the uploader window should just stay full screen. The one time someone messes up and their window changes, whatever 'prettiness' having the uploader in a window will quickly lose its appeal.

Personally, I don't like the windowed uploader also because I can't quickly copy the url to replicate uploader sessions (I need to run 12-16 simultaneously to max out my bandwidth).

I don't like the windowed uploader either. It's prettier at a loss of functionality. No URL. No back/forward button to get there. Drag/drop problem already mentioned. Can't resize window properly from large browser window to just size of uploader stuff while it's running. These are all problems caused by it being an overlay on top of an existing browser window rather than a new window that is treated like a real browser window and sized appropriately.

Andy

jfriend wrote: »

These are all problems caused by it being an overlay on top of an existing browser window rather than a new window that is treated like a real browser window and sized appropriately.

We got some real interesting results in our user testing - people got thwarted when there was another page separate from the gallery - so hence the overlay

jfriend

Andy wrote: »

We got some real interesting results in our user testing - people got thwarted when there was another page separate from the gallery - so hence the overlay

Then fix all the problems making it an overlay caused.

Andy

jfriend wrote: »

Then fix all the problems making it an overlay caused.

I think you can see that Sam's here and working on 'em, yeah? Thanks for the awesome list, John!

Shizam

As a work around if you select 'upload -> select existing gallery' OR in the floating window select 'try a different uploader' and select 'simple uploader' it'll take you to the old page. These are just work arounds though.

jfriend

Andy wrote: »

I think you can see that Sam's here and working on 'em, yeah? Thanks for the awesome list, John!

I see that he fixed a couple things that have been reported and that's good. I just think it's a UI disaster that missing a drag/drop by a tenth of an inch loses ALL your work and uploads in progress. I personally would have filed a serious "data loss" bug on that type of issue because that's how users will feel when it happens to them.

But, all I've heard so far on feedback on that issue is that "it's too hard to fix" which I do not believe is the case. So, based on feedback so far right now a bettin' man says you aren't trying to fix it. If you told me the plan, I'd know whether to just wait patiently or whether to continue pointing out relevant issues to show you the reason you should do more. Because you don't share with us an info about the plan, we have no idea whether Shizam is off working on the next thing and you guys consider the uploader done for now or whether he's working on the next 10 fixes.

Put yourself in our shoes for a second. We have no idea which of these issues you think is important and are actually going to work on vs. the ones that you're not interested in changing. How should we know whether to sit back and wait or continue to point out the reasons you should pay attention to things we think are important?

Shizam

Its not 'to hard to fix', nobody ever said that. I said its a browser limitation which it is and it always has been for any D&D element w/in a browser window, this isn't a new issue, the plan is it can't be 'fixed' which seems pretty obvious what w/it being a browser limitation.

I don't see how continuing to hash this item out is helping anything Why not discuss a different item that can actually have a solution?

jfriend

Shizam wrote: »

Its not 'to hard to fix', nobody ever said that. I said its a browser limitation which it is and it always has been for any D&D element w/in a browser window, this isn't a new issue, the plan is it can't be 'fixed' which seems pretty obvious what w/it being a browser limitation.

I don't see how continuing to hash this item out is helping anything Why not discuss a different item that can actually have a solution?

Because the UI sucks. It loses user's data really easily. This happened to me the very first time I used it. I had already configured 10 images to upload and I missed on one drop and poof, the whole thing was gone. In my days of running an engineering organization, that's a data loss serious bug and horrible UI. Either fix the issue or change the design not to have this issue.

I'm not sure you ever understood my original suggestion for a direction towards a solution to this problem. I suggested intercepting the drag/drop event in the host browser window (which is your own Smugmug HTML/JS page - the one you overlay the uploader onto) so that the browser doesn't get it and process it and throw all the user's data and uploads away. Maybe like the way that gmail accepts drag/dropped files to use as attachments rather than trashing it's window? Or the way this demo page intercepts it. Or the way your HTML5 uploader intercepts the file drops. If you chose to solve this problem it is solvable. If you want to claim it's not solvable, then you will get the quality of product you deserve.

FYI, in addition to the regular uploader, the newer HTML5 uploader (which uses drag/drop by javascript already) has this same issue and there's no argument that it's not solvable there.

If you just don't care to solve this issue, then just say so and we can have a difference of opinion whether it should be fixed or not. But to hide behind "it can't be fixed" is really amateur hour.

What pisses me off is that you seem happy to do nothing about it, you don't care to engage in a discussion of possible solutions and you look like you'd be perfectly happy if I just went away. Well you will get your wish. Bye. Sorry I tried to help in the first place.

Andy

jfriend wrote: »

What pisses me off is that you seem happy to do nothing about it, you don't care to engage in a discussion of possible solutions and you look like you'd be perfectly happy if I just went away. Well you will get your wish. Bye. Sorry I tried to help in the first place.

Hi John,

We're not sorry you've tried to help! In fact, many of the improvments to the uploader have come as a direct result of your postings on the subject. I personally make sure that Sam and our product team see each one.

Keep giving us your feedback - it's like gold to us - but also, please know, that we ourselves have limitations as well and don't take it personally if we can't or don't implement every single thing you ask.

Without customers that care like you, we'd be sunk. Thanks again for all you do!

SamirD

Shizam wrote: »

As a work around if you select 'upload -> select existing gallery' OR in the floating window select 'try a different uploader' and select 'simple uploader' it'll take you to the old page. These are just work arounds though.

YAY!! :ivar Thank you!

SamirD

jfriend wrote: »

I'm not sure you ever understood my original suggestion for a direction towards a solution to this problem.

Here's what I see as the ultimate solution. Vote for it and let's make it a reality:
http://feedback.smugmug.com/forums/17723-smugmug/suggestions/294159-ftp-uploading?ref=title

WinsomeWorks

SamirD wrote: »

Here's what I see as the ultimate solution. Vote for it and let's make it a reality:
http://feedback.smugmug.com/forums/17723-smugmug/suggestions/294159-ftp-uploading?ref=title

There's stuff I don't like about FTP uploading though. I mean, I hope for other folks' case, and maybe for mine in the future, that we get it. But it sure shouldn't take the place of having the simple uploader all working correctly... especially the stuff that honestly can be fixed. I think what's frustrating is not hearing agreement or acknowledgment about what is fixable and what is not. The suggested workarounds may be fine for you or me, but why should someone have to educate each person who comes here on the forum (or who's banging their head & never even got as far as the forum) how to do some workaround?

Someone just needs to say, "Yes, this is fixable. We'll fix it now." or "No, this isn't fixable & workarounds are a silly long-term answer, so we'll either go back to what worked or do something entirely different that works completely"! I mean, it's an uploader, for heaven's sakes!! The SIMPLE uploader!! It's the most basic, fundamental element on the site that everyone is constantly using! Users just aren't going to deal with this wishy-washyness about uploading....we will lose them left & right. There's absolutely no excuse for people having to come to forums for more than a day or two reporting the same problems w/ uploads, and it not get thoroughly addressed, since uploading is probably the most important thing we do here!

SamirD

WinsomeWorks wrote: »

There's stuff I don't like about FTP uploading though. I mean, I hope for other folks' case, and maybe for mine in the future, that we get it. But it sure shouldn't take the place of having the simple uploader all working correctly... especially the stuff that honestly can be fixed. I think what's frustrating is not hearing agreement or acknowledgment about what is fixable and what is not. The suggested workarounds may be fine for you or me, but why should someone have to educate each person who comes here on the forum (or who's banging their head & never even got as far as the forum) how to do some workaround?

Someone just needs to say, "Yes, this is fixable. We'll fix it now." or "No, this isn't fixable & workarounds are a silly long-term answer, so we'll either go back to what worked or do something entirely different that works completely"! I mean, it's an uploader, for heaven's sakes!! The SIMPLE uploader!! It's the most basic, fundamental element on the site that everyone is constantly using! Users just aren't going to deal with this wishy-washyness about uploading....we will lose them left & right. There's absolutely no excuse for people having to come to forums for more than a day or two reporting the same problems w/ uploads, and it not get thoroughly addressed, since uploading is probably the most important thing we do here!

I completely agree with you about things working the way they should. The watermarking tool, rotate tool, and even share button still have issues from years ago. I yelled at the computer pretty good today when the wrong link was put in a post that took me ten minutes to compose. This type of wasted time is irritating to users, and a bane for professionals who's time is money.

Uploading is the number one thing done by users of any photography service. It should be the most robust part of the process, because without it, there are no customers. I spent a good number of years not uploading images from the past because of uploader issues. And it was the biggest pain I ever went through to upload that 100gb to SM. This should not have been the case.