HS Football WB at High ISO

rockcanyonphotos

ok, pls excuse my ignorance. Up until this point I have been shooting HS football with a flash once the sun goes down. However, I just picked up a Mark IV and was trying out the high ISO settings (went up to 6400). The noise performance was actually quite good, the WB on the photos, however, was awful. I don't really expect to be able to duplicate the quality of a flash photo with high ISO but I would welcome any advice/suggestions on how to improve the color of photos taken in these crummy HS stadiums, after dark with High ISO settings.

Regards, Kevin

travischance

rockcanyonphotos wrote: »

ok, pls excuse my ignorance. Up until this point I have been shooting HS football with a flash once the sun goes down. However, I just picked up a Mark IV and was trying out the high ISO settings (went up to 6400). The noise performance was actually quite good, the WB on the photos, however, was awful. I don't really expect to be able to duplicate the quality of a flash photo with high ISO but I would welcome any advice/suggestions on how to improve the color of photos taken in these crummy HS stadiums, after dark with High ISO settings.

Regards, Kevin

Purchase a Expodisc WB filter (or comparable product). Mine works extremely well & I've been extremely happy with it.

donek

I've used an expo disc in the past. You're welcome to buy mine if you like. Most newer cameras have very good/accurate displays. I just twiddle the kelvin values until it looks good on the screen. Shooting in those conditions, people typically shoot in raw and then have the ability to change the WB once they transfer to the computer. Raw will also give you the ability to change exposure.

rockcanyonphotos

donek wrote: »

I've used an expo disc in the past. You're welcome to buy mine if you like. Most newer cameras have very good/accurate displays. I just twiddle the kelvin values until it looks good on the screen. Shooting in those conditions, people typically shoot in raw and then have the ability to change the WB once they transfer to the computer. Raw will also give you the ability to change exposure.

Thanks guys. I have an expo disc, just haven't used it in a while. My games typically start out in the daylight and go dark sometime after halftime. So it is just a bit of a pain to change to a smaller lens, shoot for WB, reset, etc., I also shoot in RAW already and I do bring the WB back there. I am just trying to minimize the post production work.

I do like the idea of playing with the Kelvin values and I also found out that I can push the WB values around a bit with the new camera using the WB shift/bracket so I think I am going to give that a go next time.

Biggest problem is most likely between my ears!! I have been shooting with flash for the last few years and everything comes out so darn nice there really isn't anything to do in PP. Downside of course is only one frame per sec.

Thanks again for the insights/ideas.

regards, Kevin

donek

rockcanyonphotos wrote: »

Thanks guys. I have an expo disc, just haven't used it in a while. My games typically start out in the daylight and go dark sometime after halftime. So it is just a bit of a pain to change to a smaller lens, shoot for WB, reset, etc., I also shoot in RAW already and I do bring the WB back there. I am just trying to minimize the post production work.

I do like the idea of playing with the Kelvin values and I also found out that I can push the WB values around a bit with the new camera using the WB shift/bracket so I think I am going to give that a go next time.

Biggest problem is most likely between my ears!! I have been shooting with flash for the last few years and everything comes out so darn nice there really isn't anything to do in PP. Downside of course is only one frame per sec.

Thanks again for the insights/ideas.

regards, Kevin

I usually shoot night football with two flashes mounted low on my monopod. I fire one with a ttl cord, running it in commander mode. The second as a slave. I can usually get a burst of 3 shots at 6 fps. Once you start dialing the kelvin numbers, you get really fast at it. You'll be able to keep it really close and eliminate the need for adjustments in post. The only time I shoot raw these days is if I'm really uncertain of what I'm shooting.

rockcanyonphotos

donek wrote: »

I usually shoot night football with two flashes mounted low on my monopod. I fire one with a ttl cord, running it in commander mode. The second as a slave. I can usually get a burst of 3 shots at 6 fps. Once you start dialing the kelvin numbers, you get really fast at it. You'll be able to keep it really close and eliminate the need for adjustments in post. The only time I shoot raw these days is if I'm really uncertain of what I'm shooting.

ok Sean, You really have my interest!! I love shooting with my flash mounted low on my monopod!! This is my preferred way of shooting but I have never done 2 flashes. I really like the idea of moving up my frame rate!!

Looking at some of your work I see you are coping with the same crappy lighting that I am here in CO.

Would you be willing to share some photos of how you mount 2 flashes on your monopod and details of how you set up to run both flashes?

regards, Kevin

Big Red

Are flashes typically allowed at football games? I may be doing my first football photos this Friday.

hockeytown74

Can you post some pictures of these? Also what other setting did you us such as shutter speed, f stop, WB and were you shotting raw or jpeg.

rockcanyonphotos

Big Red wrote: »

Are flashes typically allowed at football games? I may be doing my first football photos this Friday.

I have covered HS football games in CA and CO and using a flash has never been an issue. I think in general, at the HS and below level flashes are allowed. Once you get to the college level and above I think there are restrictions.

rockcanyonphotos

hockeytown74 wrote: »

Can you post some pictures of these? Also what other setting did you us such as shutter speed, f stop, WB and were you shotting raw or jpeg.

Hopefully I figured this out and a photo example is attached. I use a similar setup to Sean but I have only one flash mounted low on my monopod but I am using the same equipment as you (although the photo posted was with my M3 fm last year).

For me the trick is to set my exposure 2 stops below ambient but you have to do that with the flash sync constraint on them M3 & M4's of 1/320. So for me I typically go one stop down on the ISO and one on the F-stop. Which in most cases, with my lighting conditions, translates to ISO 1600, 1/300 shutter & f/4 aperture. For my flash I am set for 2nd curtain shutter and +2/3. I shoot in RAW with AWB but from Sean's post it sounds like he does JPG. In most cases I have found that with this setup there is very little, if any PP adjustments that need to be made so I think JPG probably works just fine... I shoot RAW just out of habit. For me the downside has been the cycle speed on my flash. I can get a shooting rate of about 1 shot/sec (which is why I am so interested in Sean's 2 flash setup with the ability to get off 3 shots/sec). The other big benefit of the flash is the AF assist. I have found that with this set-up I rarely have an OOF shot.

I also have to warn you that it does take some playing with the distance of your flash from your lens to get it just right and I have only had luck with this setup when using it with my 300mm/f2.8. I have tried it with a 200mm/f1.8 and did not have good results at all.

regards, Kevin

hockeytown74

First is would make sure you are setting your shutter speed to at least 1/1000 to 1/1600 and then adjust your iso for proper exposure. Also shoot at f 2.8 at night games. Below is a link from a sport illustrated staff photograher which he shares his settings on the 1d mark iv. Hope this helps.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=2371

rockcanyonphotos

hockeytown74 wrote: »

First is would make sure you are setting your shutter speed to at least 1/1000 to 1/1600 and then adjust your iso for proper exposure. Also shoot at f 2.8 at night games. Below is a link from a sport illustrated staff photograher which he shares his settings on the 1d mark iv. Hope this helps.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=2371

Ok, hockeytown, I guess I totally missed where you were going with your previous question. I thought you were asking about Sean's settings with the flash. let's see if I can hit the mark a bit better this time.

1) I had actually found Peter's settings and used them for my first game of the season last week. They worked pretty well but I have found that when I am shooting low to the ground my camera tends to forward focus a bit, so I am going to switch to single point AF with no surrounding assist to see if that helps. I am also going to try and use the micro adj. and see if that helps resolve the problem.

2) As for settings, I have attached an example that I took from RAW to JPG with no conversion, just cropping, to give you an idea of what I am dealing with.... I don't know that there is an ISO that exists that could give me 1/1000 with the lighting I have. For this shot, I was in manual mode pushing 1/400 a bit underexposed on the face at ISO6400 and f2.8. The AWB also brought the photo in at 4050... ergo my first question.

3) The previous pic was from the end of last season when I used my flash. Every time I get a new camera, I think I am going to be able to go high enough up the ISO curve to be able to get 1/500 or better with acceptable noise... but it never happens :-(

donek

rockcanyonphotos wrote: »

ok Sean, You really have my interest!! I love shooting with my flash mounted low on my monopod!! This is my preferred way of shooting but I have never done 2 flashes. I really like the idea of moving up my frame rate!!

Looking at some of your work I see you are coping with the same crappy lighting that I am here in CO.

Would you be willing to share some photos of how you mount 2 flashes on your monopod and details of how you set up to run both flashes?

regards, Kevin

Sorry Kevin. It's been a few days since I've been here. I shot my first FB game on Friday with abismal results. Footbal is usually my worst. I'm not familiar enough with the game and night time just stinks. I'm also in Colorado. A bit east of Denver. About 45 minutes from you. I tried using a second sync cord originally, but it didn't work in ttl and then went to using the ttl sync cord for one flash set on commander mode and the other to slave. The second flash is fired with nikon's cls. If you shoot with your flash in manual, you can use a standard sync cord to fire them both, but you have to constantly change your setting based on distance. TTL automatically adjusts. I think I had things figured out a bit better last season. Hopefully the next game produces better results. I have Volleyball tomorrow night.

Here's a photo of my monopod and homebrew lead acid battery setups. Batteries are about $25 at batteries plus. Little backpack is a walmart backpack lunchbox and holds two flashes with lead acid batteries. Can be worn or easily mounted with flashes in a gym. My superclamp setup is also in this photo.



Here's a link to the high res image in case you want to look closer.
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/flash-experiments/DSC4425/997611862_8HACf-O.jpg

donek

rockcanyonphotos wrote: »

Hopefully I figured this out and a photo example is attached. I use a similar setup to Sean but I have only one flash mounted low on my monopod but I am using the same equipment as you (although the photo posted was with my M3 fm last year).

For me the trick is to set my exposure 2 stops below ambient but you have to do that with the flash sync constraint on them M3 & M4's of 1/320. So for me I typically go one stop down on the ISO and one on the F-stop. Which in most cases, with my lighting conditions, translates to ISO 1600, 1/300 shutter & f/4 aperture. For my flash I am set for 2nd curtain shutter and +2/3. I shoot in RAW with AWB but from Sean's post it sounds like he does JPG. In most cases I have found that with this setup there is very little, if any PP adjustments that need to be made so I think JPG probably works just fine... I shoot RAW just out of habit. For me the downside has been the cycle speed on my flash. I can get a shooting rate of about 1 shot/sec (which is why I am so interested in Sean's 2 flash setup with the ability to get off 3 shots/sec). The other big benefit of the flash is the AF assist. I have found that with this set-up I rarely have an OOF shot.

I also have to warn you that it does take some playing with the distance of your flash from your lens to get it just right and I have only had luck with this setup when using it with my 300mm/f2.8. I have tried it with a 200mm/f1.8 and did not have good results at all.

regards, Kevin

I need to try turning on AF assist. Does it really help at that distance?

edit - just found out nikon's AF-assist only works in single. Won't function in continuous focus mode, hence why I've never used it.

rockcanyonphotos

donek wrote: »

I need to try turning on AF assist. Does it really help at that distance?

edit - just found out nikon's AF-assist only works in single. Won't function in continuous focus mode, hence why I've never used it.

WOW... you have a bit more horsepower on the battery side than I do. I run an 8-AA battery pack. If you are shooting the small schools east of Denver then you may have even more of a challenge with lighting than I do. At least here in Douglas County we have district stadiums (not that the lighting is very good there either.. it just sounds like it should be).

I am going to have to do some playing to see if I can actually put together a contraption like the one you have. That is some pretty clever work!! My hat's off to you.

As for the AF assist... I never even thought that it wouldn't work in Continuos AF mode (thank you canon). But if makes a HUGE difference!! As crazy as it sounds, when I have AF assist on, I rarely have an OOF shot!! Well I guess Nikon not having that feature available for sports shooting compensates for Canon only having a flash sync speed of 1/300 :-)

BTW... took a look at your boardshop.... VERY NICE products you have there!!!

regards, Kevin

donek

rockcanyonphotos wrote: »

BTW... took a look at your boardshop.... VERY NICE products you have there!!!

regards, Kevin

Thanks Kevin. I've shot night games with rental lights on top of generators. It can be pretty bad. If you're into snowboarding, you should have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xKE0xcN0Oc I think it has a future beyond racing in the freeride market.