So only main stream 35mm FF, or cropped sensor style DSLRs in this?? No Leica, Aptus, Mamiya, Phase One, Hasselblad or Pentax 645D?
That's a shame
The 645D is an amazing piece of kit and not that much more expensive than some of the pro level DSLRs - Due to the 645D cost, Mamiya/Phase One are dropping prices and 'Blad released the H4D-31 around that price bracket ...... Medium format digital (cropped or not) isn't the prohibitively expensive realm of high end professionals any more, but I get the feeling the big two from Canon and Nikon don't want that made common knowledge - and that flows to a lot of forums and sites catering to that fan base.
I know USD$10K isn't cheap, but I do find it amusing when you read comments from people you know have been caught in the upgrade trap whinging it's too much. One example - someone I know went through the Canon range with an entry level DSLR, upgraded that to something I forget the model number for, upgraded again to a 5D, then a 5DII, now wants to try and grab a 2nd hand 1DMkIII once the MkIV comes out .... and has a lot of L glass ....... and they had a go at me for "wasting" $12K on the 645D and new 2.8/55 prime to go with it! If it isn't cost, people will drag out the old critisisms of speed, noise at hi ISO and the like without bothering to see what the new breed of MF Digitals are capable of now.
If those tables can rate entry level/consumer grade cropped sensor DSLRs along with pro-level full frames - why aren't the Medium Formats included?
Because MF is definitely a niche... even some consumers still buy the FF cameras. The digital market is gaining huge momentum in magnitude for MF though. I think the 645D will bring much more awareness and add some pressure to the top canon/nikon models for the professional market. I'd rather get the 645D over a D3X any day
So only main stream 35mm FF, or cropped sensor style DSLRs in this?? No Leica, Aptus, Mamiya, Phase One, Hasselblad or Pentax 645D?
That's a shame
The 645D is an amazing piece of kit and not that much more expensive than some of the pro level DSLRs - Due to the 645D cost, Mamiya/Phase One are dropping prices and 'Blad released the H4D-31 around that price bracket ...... Medium format digital (cropped or not) isn't the prohibitively expensive realm of high end professionals any more, but I get the feeling the big two from Canon and Nikon don't want that made common knowledge - and that flows to a lot of forums and sites catering to that fan base.
I know USD$10K isn't cheap, but I do find it amusing when you read comments from people you know have been caught in the upgrade trap whinging it's too much. One example - someone I know went through the Canon range with an entry level DSLR, upgraded that to something I forget the model number for, upgraded again to a 5D, then a 5DII, now wants to try and grab a 2nd hand 1DMkIII once the MkIV comes out .... and has a lot of L glass ....... and they had a go at me for "wasting" $12K on the 645D and new 2.8/55 prime to go with it! If it isn't cost, people will drag out the old critisisms of speed, noise at hi ISO and the like without bothering to see what the new breed of MF Digitals are capable of now.
If those tables can rate entry level/consumer grade cropped sensor DSLRs along with pro-level full frames - why aren't the Medium Formats included?
Interesting comments, with which I tend to agree, and your mention of the "upgrade trap" is particularly apposite in the context of the discussions comparing models.
It seems that Canon will not be going the MF route, and I think they are wise not to. Instead, I think they will push the envelope with the 1D line towards the best of both worlds. That product will be as expensive as the MF cheapies now, but far superior in ease, performance, versatility, and quality, with a version to match your purposes.
So only main stream 35mm FF, or cropped sensor style DSLRs in this?? No Leica, Aptus, Mamiya, Phase One, Hasselblad or Pentax 645D?
That's a shame ...?
dpreview and cameralabs concentrate more on the consumer/prosumer end of things. Higher volume, greater choice and more diverse reviews means greater viewership and commissions on sales from their vendor partners.
Interesting comments, with which I tend to agree, and your mention of the "upgrade trap" is particularly apposite in the context of the discussions comparing models.
It seems that Canon will not be going the MF route, and I think they are wise not to. Instead, I think they will push the envelope with the 1D line towards the best of both worlds. That product will be as expensive as the MF cheapies now, but far superior in ease, performance, versatility, and quality, with a version to match your purposes.
Neil
With regards to ease of use, performance, versatility and quality - have you seen or tried one of the new 645Ds?
Yes I own one and am a bit biased, but I'm no Pentax Fan-boy and have owned and used cameras from a lot of different manufactures. I compared the 645D against 1DMkIII and D3x models and the Pentax is just as easy to use, if not easier and more intuitive than both of those cameras. The button layout and menu organisation is fantastic and super-easy to change settings, see what is set and it's customisable to set things the way you want them. The only way it could be easier to use would be a big red "Full Auto - Make my shots AWESOME" button and take all control off the photographer so you don't need to control anything .... and where's the fun in that
Performance ..... you really need to see a 24 x 32 inch print straight from the 645D! Every test I've seen so far puts the 645D miles ahead in Image Quality compared to any top of the range Full frame DSLR. I think it was Luminous Landscapes that compared the 645D to a Leica, a Phase One and a 1DMkIII and after the first few minutes they put the Canon away as it wasn't even in the same ball park. It was pointless to continue comparing the DSLR to the others for image quality, sharpness, dynamic range .....etc. When Canon or Nikon catch up to the 30+ Mpixel resolution, you can bet Hasselblad, Pentax, Mamiya ....etc will have made the next step with 50 or 60+ Mpixel setting the standard.
Quality - can't speak for the the other MF "cheapies" at the moment, but I can guarantee that the 645D is beautifully made and fully weather sealed - definitely a quality piece of kit!
'Blad glass, old Pentax glass, anything Leica .... they're all something a bit special and scream levels of quality I've yet to see or feel in modern DSLR gear.
The only area MF falls down in is versatility with a slow fps shooting rate, no video, and whilst the noise is no where near as bad as others would have you believe in carrying on the old MF/noise sterotype, ISO1600 is the maximum and it will require some noise reduction work.
Most people will buy a Large or Medium format system to one job, and do it REALLY well - so that's were I reckon the DSLR makers will concentrate efforts on. If you make a living from selling huge panorama prints, or work all day every day in the studio then MF will be an attractive option. But if you shoot weddings and include video, shoot landscapes for your own pleasure, like taking your camera to sporting events and make some cash on the side shooting family/kids/pet portraits and need an all rounder, only printing small (A3 or under) or 90% or more of your work is seen on the web, then yeah .... MF probably isn't for you
I just reckong it's a shame a lot of the more popular mags and sites don't cover the other options that are out there and in doing so help promote the upgrade trap :cry
With regards to ease of use, performance, versatility and quality - have you seen or tried one of the new 645Ds?
Yes I own one and am a bit biased, but I'm no Pentax Fan-boy and have owned and used cameras from a lot of different manufactures. I compared the 645D against 1DMkIII and D3x models and the Pentax is just as easy to use, if not easier and more intuitive than both of those cameras. The button layout and menu organisation is fantastic and super-easy to change settings, see what is set and it's customisable to set things the way you want them. The only way it could be easier to use would be a big red "Full Auto - Make my shots AWESOME" button and take all control off the photographer so you don't need to control anything .... and where's the fun in that
Performance ..... you really need to see a 24 x 32 inch print straight from the 645D! Every test I've seen so far puts the 645D miles ahead in Image Quality compared to any top of the range Full frame DSLR. I think it was Luminous Landscapes that compared the 645D to a Leica, a Phase One and a 1DMkIII and after the first few minutes they put the Canon away as it wasn't even in the same ball park. It was pointless to continue comparing the DSLR to the others for image quality, sharpness, dynamic range .....etc. When Canon or Nikon catch up to the 30+ Mpixel resolution, you can bet Hasselblad, Pentax, Mamiya ....etc will have made the next step with 50 or 60+ Mpixel setting the standard.
Quality - can't speak for the the other MF "cheapies" at the moment, but I can guarantee that the 645D is beautifully made and fully weather sealed - definitely a quality piece of kit!
'Blad glass, old Pentax glass, anything Leica .... they're all something a bit special and scream levels of quality I've yet to see or feel in modern DSLR gear.
The only area MF falls down in is versatility with a slow fps shooting rate, no video, and whilst the noise is no where near as bad as others would have you believe in carrying on the old MF/noise sterotype, ISO1600 is the maximum and it will require some noise reduction work.
Most people will buy a Large or Medium format system to one job, and do it REALLY well - so that's were I reckon the DSLR makers will concentrate efforts on. If you make a living from selling huge panorama prints, or work all day every day in the studio then MF will be an attractive option. But if you shoot weddings and include video, shoot landscapes for your own pleasure, like taking your camera to sporting events and make some cash on the side shooting family/kids/pet portraits and need an all rounder, only printing small (A3 or under) or 90% or more of your work is seen on the web, then yeah .... MF probably isn't for you
I just reckong it's a shame a lot of the more popular mags and sites don't cover the other options that are out there and in doing so help promote the upgrade trap :cry
Extremely interesting, thanks! From what you say, I think we could expect the competition to heat up between the flagship DSLRs and the new breed of MF. Should be a drama worth watching!
Another player, another battlefront, in the commercial success of both formats is in-camera, tethered, and post processing software, and degree of automation.
Ratings can be foolish
Ratings can be foolish to take seriously, especially at DPR. Those badges and ratings basically mean nothing, since DPR is so heavily advertised and supported by the manufactures. If you want honest opinions, get away from any forum and website that talks gear, and start viewing pics.
There has been strong and proven evidence presented, that DPR skews their opinions and review facts, and even places in-house shills into their forums to provoke dissent just before a major review. Those knuckleheads don't even know any better than to change the wording of those shills when it comes time to write the reviews. They screwed up review facts more than once, deliberately... and were caught doing so on a number of occasions. One such incident, they presented a two year old photo of a discontinued camera, and then passed it off as the latest review shot of the latest model camera from the same manufactuer... for comparison to the other latest models. They changed the EXIF in those Jpg shots ,and refused anyone to download the Raw file. When caught doing so, they admittedly re-shot the test file.
Once caught cheating, they can never ever again be trusted!
I will never bring this up again to these fine forums... and won't respond.
Snoop
Ratings can be foolish to take seriously, especially at DPR. Those badges and ratings basically mean nothing, since DPR is so heavily advertised and supported by the manufactures. If you want honest opinions, get away from any forum and website that talks gear, and start viewing pics.
There has been strong and proven evidence presented, that DPR skews their opinions and review facts, and even places in-house shills into their forums to provoke dissent just before a major review. Those knuckleheads don't even know any better than to change the wording of those shills when it comes time to write the reviews. They screwed up review facts more than once, deliberately... and were caught doing so on a number of occasions. One such incident, they presented a two year old photo of a discontinued camera, and then passed it off as the latest review shot of the latest model camera from the same manufactuer... for comparison to the other latest models. They changed the EXIF in those Jpg shots ,and refused anyone to download the Raw file. When caught doing so, they admittedly re-shot the test file.
Once caught cheating, they can never ever again be trusted!
I will never bring this up again to these fine forums... and won't respond.
Snoop
I've been on DPR for quite a few years. Its not my favorite place but there's lots of good info and some good discussions there.
I've found their reviews to be fair and balanced. I don't agree with them all the time but I have yet to see any "strong and proven evidence" that their reviews are skewed. I've seen fan boys in various forums get all agitated when one of "their" cameras wasn't rated high enough for them but I have yet to see any bias in their reviews.
For myself the only reviewer I fully trust is myself.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Interesting but... seems to me it's a little misleading to compare different generation cameras directly, since each camera's scale will be based on the way it was graded when it was released rather than going head-to-head as direct comparisons later on. So the 40d was stupendous when it was released but is lacking features made available in subsequent models.
But thanks for posting - it is definitely interesting!
ETA: Fwiw, I couldn't be happier with the 7d - it has exceeded all expectations in every way.
Quite true. It's an interesting chart though, especially seeing where the different manufacturers are, although there's been some issues raised about manufacturer support!
Anyway, I've moved on to a Canon 50D now and it's fantastic, so can concur with the rating. Fantastic body.
Comments
That's a shame
The 645D is an amazing piece of kit and not that much more expensive than some of the pro level DSLRs - Due to the 645D cost, Mamiya/Phase One are dropping prices and 'Blad released the H4D-31 around that price bracket ...... Medium format digital (cropped or not) isn't the prohibitively expensive realm of high end professionals any more, but I get the feeling the big two from Canon and Nikon don't want that made common knowledge - and that flows to a lot of forums and sites catering to that fan base.
I know USD$10K isn't cheap, but I do find it amusing when you read comments from people you know have been caught in the upgrade trap whinging it's too much. One example - someone I know went through the Canon range with an entry level DSLR, upgraded that to something I forget the model number for, upgraded again to a 5D, then a 5DII, now wants to try and grab a 2nd hand 1DMkIII once the MkIV comes out .... and has a lot of L glass ....... and they had a go at me for "wasting" $12K on the 645D and new 2.8/55 prime to go with it! If it isn't cost, people will drag out the old critisisms of speed, noise at hi ISO and the like without bothering to see what the new breed of MF Digitals are capable of now.
If those tables can rate entry level/consumer grade cropped sensor DSLRs along with pro-level full frames - why aren't the Medium Formats included?
www.warped-photography.com
Interesting comments, with which I tend to agree, and your mention of the "upgrade trap" is particularly apposite in the context of the discussions comparing models.
It seems that Canon will not be going the MF route, and I think they are wise not to. Instead, I think they will push the envelope with the 1D line towards the best of both worlds. That product will be as expensive as the MF cheapies now, but far superior in ease, performance, versatility, and quality, with a version to match your purposes.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
dpreview and cameralabs concentrate more on the consumer/prosumer end of things. Higher volume, greater choice and more diverse reviews means greater viewership and commissions on sales from their vendor partners.
...yeah, it's a shame but money talks...
With regards to ease of use, performance, versatility and quality - have you seen or tried one of the new 645Ds?
Yes I own one and am a bit biased, but I'm no Pentax Fan-boy and have owned and used cameras from a lot of different manufactures. I compared the 645D against 1DMkIII and D3x models and the Pentax is just as easy to use, if not easier and more intuitive than both of those cameras. The button layout and menu organisation is fantastic and super-easy to change settings, see what is set and it's customisable to set things the way you want them. The only way it could be easier to use would be a big red "Full Auto - Make my shots AWESOME" button and take all control off the photographer so you don't need to control anything .... and where's the fun in that
Performance ..... you really need to see a 24 x 32 inch print straight from the 645D! Every test I've seen so far puts the 645D miles ahead in Image Quality compared to any top of the range Full frame DSLR. I think it was Luminous Landscapes that compared the 645D to a Leica, a Phase One and a 1DMkIII and after the first few minutes they put the Canon away as it wasn't even in the same ball park. It was pointless to continue comparing the DSLR to the others for image quality, sharpness, dynamic range .....etc. When Canon or Nikon catch up to the 30+ Mpixel resolution, you can bet Hasselblad, Pentax, Mamiya ....etc will have made the next step with 50 or 60+ Mpixel setting the standard.
Quality - can't speak for the the other MF "cheapies" at the moment, but I can guarantee that the 645D is beautifully made and fully weather sealed - definitely a quality piece of kit!
'Blad glass, old Pentax glass, anything Leica .... they're all something a bit special and scream levels of quality I've yet to see or feel in modern DSLR gear.
The only area MF falls down in is versatility with a slow fps shooting rate, no video, and whilst the noise is no where near as bad as others would have you believe in carrying on the old MF/noise sterotype, ISO1600 is the maximum and it will require some noise reduction work.
Most people will buy a Large or Medium format system to one job, and do it REALLY well - so that's were I reckon the DSLR makers will concentrate efforts on. If you make a living from selling huge panorama prints, or work all day every day in the studio then MF will be an attractive option. But if you shoot weddings and include video, shoot landscapes for your own pleasure, like taking your camera to sporting events and make some cash on the side shooting family/kids/pet portraits and need an all rounder, only printing small (A3 or under) or 90% or more of your work is seen on the web, then yeah .... MF probably isn't for you
I just reckong it's a shame a lot of the more popular mags and sites don't cover the other options that are out there and in doing so help promote the upgrade trap :cry
www.warped-photography.com
Extremely interesting, thanks! From what you say, I think we could expect the competition to heat up between the flagship DSLRs and the new breed of MF. Should be a drama worth watching!
Another player, another battlefront, in the commercial success of both formats is in-camera, tethered, and post processing software, and degree of automation.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
dpreview has just completed their review of the Panasonic DMC-GH2
cameralabs (Highly Recommended) & dpreview (Silver Award) have completed their review of the Canon 600D/T3i.
dpreview has completed their review of the Canon T3/1100D
Ratings can be foolish to take seriously, especially at DPR. Those badges and ratings basically mean nothing, since DPR is so heavily advertised and supported by the manufactures. If you want honest opinions, get away from any forum and website that talks gear, and start viewing pics.
There has been strong and proven evidence presented, that DPR skews their opinions and review facts, and even places in-house shills into their forums to provoke dissent just before a major review. Those knuckleheads don't even know any better than to change the wording of those shills when it comes time to write the reviews. They screwed up review facts more than once, deliberately... and were caught doing so on a number of occasions. One such incident, they presented a two year old photo of a discontinued camera, and then passed it off as the latest review shot of the latest model camera from the same manufactuer... for comparison to the other latest models. They changed the EXIF in those Jpg shots ,and refused anyone to download the Raw file. When caught doing so, they admittedly re-shot the test file.
Once caught cheating, they can never ever again be trusted!
I will never bring this up again to these fine forums... and won't respond.
Snoop
I've been on DPR for quite a few years. Its not my favorite place but there's lots of good info and some good discussions there.
I've found their reviews to be fair and balanced. I don't agree with them all the time but I have yet to see any "strong and proven evidence" that their reviews are skewed. I've seen fan boys in various forums get all agitated when one of "their" cameras wasn't rated high enough for them but I have yet to see any bias in their reviews.
For myself the only reviewer I fully trust is myself.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Quite true. It's an interesting chart though, especially seeing where the different manufacturers are, although there's been some issues raised about manufacturer support!
Anyway, I've moved on to a Canon 50D now and it's fantastic, so can concur with the rating. Fantastic body.
S
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