Question on school pictures

GadgetRick

I was speaking with the principal of the school where my 7 year old goes last night and inquired about how to be considered to do the school photos. She explained the current photog is in the 3rd year of a 3 year contract and she can't stand them. So she wants to help me get involved in the bidding process and wants to do everything she can do to get me in for her school and the other elementary schools in my city.

Anyway, she explained there will be a bid process. I thought this was strange but, apparently, photogs bid on how cheap their packages will be. She explained they (the photogs) never honor those packages (i.e. they raise the prices on the packages when it's picture time) so it sounds like a BS bidding process.

Was wondering if anyone else around here has been through a process like this with schools. Looking for advice on how to handle it.

Thanks.

chrisjohnson

What is her idea of the minimum package?

I can think of approaches where you could even offer to shoot for free.

MileHighAko

Did she mention if it is standard or expected for the school to get a portion of the proceeds (a kickback)? Schools in my area do, and the bidding process is generally more about that angle than cost to parents. Just something else to watch out for.

GadgetRick

goldenballs wrote: »

What is her idea of the minimum package?

I can think of approaches where you could even offer to shoot for free.

Honestly, she doesn't have an idea about any of that. This is why I figured I'd ask here. She has had this dumped on her it seems.

GadgetRick

MileHighAko wrote: »

Did she mention if it is standard or expected for the school to get a portion of the proceeds (a kickback)? Schools in my area do, and the bidding process is generally more about that angle than cost to parents. Just something else to watch out for.

I actually did bring this up. I (typically) donate a part of each package purchased back to the school/league/etc. I mentioned this to her and she was surprised. The current provider does NOT do this. So I'll have to ensure I put that in my bid.

reyvee61

GadgetRick wrote: »

I actually did bring this up. I (typically) donate a part of each package purchased back to the school/league/etc. I mentioned this to her and she was surprised. The current provider does NOT do this. So I'll have to ensure I put that in my bid.

Interesting process I bet, please keep us posted....

indiegirl

I'm in my fifth year of school photos for some independent schools in the PNW. I do not, nor have I ever, given any money back to the school. Instead, I shoot four hours of photography for the school's marketing. Candids, class, school buildings. It's far more useful to independent/private schools to have good photography than to get a few hundred dollars.

My bid process has been submitting my price list to the person in charge. If they want to hire me, I put the prices in the contract and they are good for the term of the contract. I can raise prices from year to year but not between the bid and the gig.

I know public schools are different--

GadgetRick

indiegirl wrote: »

I'm in my fifth year of school photos for some independent schools in the PNW. I do not, nor have I ever, given any money back to the school. Instead, I shoot four hours of photography for the school's marketing. Candids, class, school buildings. It's far more useful to independent/private schools to have good photography than to get a few hundred dollars.

My bid process has been submitting my price list to the person in charge. If they want to hire me, I put the prices in the contract and they are good for the term of the contract. I can raise prices from year to year but not between the bid and the gig.

I know public schools are different--

Thanks.

The main reason I have a shot is I'm on the Home and School Association Board so I know the principal well. I already shoot most school events for them and they like my work. They also would rather hire someone whom they know with a child in the school system. I have no problem donating money to the school anyway.

indiegirl

GadgetRick wrote: »

Thanks.

The main reason I have a shot is I'm on the Home and School Association Board so I know the principal well. I already shoot most school events for them and they like my work. They also would rather hire someone whom they know with a child in the school system. I have no problem donating money to the school anyway.

The trend to hire individuals instead of a large biz is great for me because folks want to support local biz and I can offer a better, more personalized service. This year I'll come away with at least five hundred students (1000+ adults) to add to my marketing base. I've always had a day job while doing school photos and have never pursued longer-term photography relationships, but I'm banking on successful cultivation now that my focus is photography on a full-time basis.

Jesse

GadgetRick

indiegirl wrote: »

The trend to hire individuals instead of a large biz is great for me because folks want to support local biz and I can offer a better, more personalized service. This year I'll come away with at least five hundred students (1000+ adults) to add to my marketing base. I've always had a day job while doing school photos and have never pursued longer-term photography relationships, but I'm banking on successful cultivation now that my focus is photography on a full-time basis.

Jesse

Finally found another photog who understands the value of a customer! You're exactly right. Every kid you shoot is a customer who has parents. That is all potential future business.

sweet caroline

I shoot two small private school each year, for a total of about 225 students. I do those schools because I have a personal connection. I've gained several very loyal clients from it who ask for several private sessions each year. The school gets staff photos, and the teachers get photos of their students to use on charts, cubbies, etc. I also provide photos for the yearbook.

I can't really offer any insight into the bidding process. I do something very different from other school photographers. All prints are a la carte. The parents love it, and I actually think I get higher sales that way. The parents who are willing to spend a fortune will still spend it. The ones who wouldn't have spent a $25 minimum, for example, will spend $15 or $20 to get exactly the sizes they want. I also do my school portraits outdoors in a reasonably shaded garden area.

indiegirl

GadgetRick wrote: »

Finally found another photog who understands the value of a customer! You're exactly right. Every kid you shoot is a customer who has parents. That is all potential future business.

You and me both. The idea that I'm somehow "slumming" to do school photos is just crazy to me. It's such a great way to connect with families. The contracts are hard to get if you don't know someone personally and are truly a golden nugget.

I have a really nice selection of both packages and a la carte and supply yearbook photos, a class photo for each teacher and the aforementioned marketing photos (to which I get credit when they are published).

I have done outside but in my area, it's such a crapshoot with the weather. I'm doing inside individual photos and outdoor class photos.

GadgetRick

sweet caroline wrote: »

I can't really offer any insight into the bidding process. I do something very different from other school photographers. All prints are a la carte. The parents love it, and I actually think I get higher sales that way. The parents who are willing to spend a fortune will still spend it. The ones who wouldn't have spent a $25 minimum, for example, will spend $15 or $20 to get exactly the sizes they want. I also do my school portraits outdoors in a reasonably shaded garden area.

I've been thinking of doing that as well. These days kids are having photo sessions like this in schools, sports, karate school, etc. Parents don't want THAT many photos.

GadgetRick

indiegirl wrote: »

You and me both. The idea that I'm somehow "slumming" to do school photos is just crazy to me. It's such a great way to connect with families. The contracts are hard to get if you don't know someone personally and are truly a golden nugget.

I have a really nice selection of both packages and a la carte and supply yearbook photos, a class photo for each teacher and the aforementioned marketing photos (to which I get credit when they are published).

I have done outside but in my area, it's such a crapshoot with the weather. I'm doing inside individual photos and outdoor class photos.

I agree. I've seen other photogs scoff at this type of work. It's extremely profitable and (usually) a decent payday depending on how many prospective kids there are.

However, it's boring, not very artistic and, well, boring. But, find enough of this type of work (and there's a LOT around), and you can actually make a living in some areas. There are some large companies who do this but I'm finding people aren't happy with them (like my son's principal). They're not flexible in any way. I also feel people like us give better photos which may--or may not--make much of a difference but I always get compliments on the work we do. I'm fairly new to it so I haven't gotten the repeat biz yet but I fully expect to.

sweet caroline

GadgetRick wrote: »

I agree. I've seen other photogs scoff at this type of work. It's extremely profitable and (usually) a decent payday depending on how many prospective kids there are.

However, it's boring, not very artistic and, well, boring. But, find enough of this type of work (and there's a LOT around), and you can actually make a living in some areas. There are some large companies who do this but I'm finding people aren't happy with them (like my son's principal). They're not flexible in any way. I also feel people like us give better photos which may--or may not--make much of a difference but I always get compliments on the work we do. I'm fairly new to it so I haven't gotten the repeat biz yet but I fully expect to.

I don't think I would care to make my whole living from this type of work! I try to vary things up as much as possible, but shooting 100 kids in the same garden, especially when you only have 5 minutes or less with each kid, does get quite boring. I don't even think I could stand to do more than the two schools. What makes it bearable for me is the fact that I know most of the kids I'm shooting at least a little. For a couple days work at each school, the profit compares to shooting at least a wedding a day.

Caroline

GadgetRick

sweet caroline wrote: »

I don't think I would care to make my whole living from this type of work! I try to vary things up as much as possible, but shooting 100 kids in the same garden, especially when you only have 5 minutes or less with each kid, does get quite boring. I don't even think I could stand to do more than the two schools. What makes it bearable for me is the fact that I know most of the kids I'm shooting at least a little. For a couple days work at each school, the profit compares to shooting at least a wedding a day.

Caroline

It's certainly boring but it is profitable. It's much more profitable when you figure out your hourly rate. There's almost no pp work here whereas, with wedding photography, there's pp work. I'd much rather do a bunch of this than weddings. But that may be just me...

sweet caroline

GadgetRick wrote: »

It's certainly boring but it is profitable. It's much more profitable when you figure out your hourly rate. There's almost no pp work here whereas, with wedding photography, there's pp work. I'd much rather do a bunch of this than weddings. But that may be just me...

That is true- very little pp. My point in comparing to weddings is that school photos have been worth my time and energy money wise, even though I would not like to add more schools. You are correct that based on an hourly rate, I do make a little more per day of shooting for school photos than for weddings. I also teach preschool three mornings per week and do private portrait sessions on the other days. For me, adding more schools would take away from my time to do the private sessions, which I enjoy more. Personal preference, that's all.

I would love to see more independent photographers do school portraits, rather than the big companies. The big companies in our area, it seems, provide minimal training to the photographers and only pay them between $10-$15 per hour. I started doing the schools because I genuinely wanted people to have nice photos of their kids.

cmkultradome

sweet caroline wrote: »

I can't really offer any insight into the bidding process. I do something very different from other school photographers. All prints are a la carte. The parents love it, and I actually think I get higher sales that way. The parents who are willing to spend a fortune will still spend it. The ones who wouldn't have spent a $25 minimum, for example, will spend $15 or $20 to get exactly the sizes they want. I also do my school portraits outdoors in a reasonably shaded garden area.

Could you come move to my school district!! I am so fed up with the large company that comes in and does my kids school pictures. All I want is 1 8x10 and 2 5x7s of each child (& I would pay $20 for this). Minimum I can pay to get what I want is a package that costs $43 (it has a ton of wallets & exchanges which I really don't want). They take one shot with a plain colored background. This will be the first year in 11 years that I am not going to purchase the school pictures. I usually shoot sports or landscapes but I'm open to trying something new. I have a new tactic this year. I am "hiring" each of my children to spend two hours with me where I can practice shooting them outside in natural light (no pouting/whining allowed!!), hopefully I will be able to come up with something suitable.

Stephanie

GadgetRick

sweet caroline wrote: »

That is true- very little pp. My point in comparing to weddings is that school photos have been worth my time and energy money wise, even though I would not like to add more schools. You are correct that based on an hourly rate, I do make a little more per day of shooting for school photos than for weddings. I also teach preschool three mornings per week and do private portrait sessions on the other days. For me, adding more schools would take away from my time to do the private sessions, which I enjoy more. Personal preference, that's all.

I would love to see more independent photographers do school portraits, rather than the big companies. The big companies in our area, it seems, provide minimal training to the photographers and only pay them between $10-$15 per hour. I started doing the schools because I genuinely wanted people to have nice photos of their kids.

Can't disagree with anything here.

I see a lot of not-so-good photos from the larger companies. It's because of what you said--minimal training and minimal pay. If someone is any good, they're going to leave to make more money. They get someone who will just press the shutter button (essentially) with no thought going into the shot.

Sam

Lots of good advice and opinions. The only thing that struck me was the comment about the school photographers raising their prices after they were awarded the contract.

Only in government, or the public arena does this type of shenanigans fly. In the private sector they would be thrown out (as they should be) for breach of contract.

Sam

GadgetRick

Sam wrote: »

Lots of good advice and opinions. The only thing that struck me was the comment about the school photographers raising their prices after they were awarded the contract.

Only in government, or the public arena does this type of shenanigans fly. In the private sector they would be thrown out (as they should be) for breach of contract.

Sam

Well, although I understand where you're coming from, at the end of the day, why have a bid process? I mean, the schools aren't profiting from this in any way so there shouldn't be a bid process. Typical government BS...

However, I agree, they shouldn't be changing their pricing.

sweet caroline

cmkultradome wrote: »

Could you come move to my school district!! I am so fed up with the large company that comes in and does my kids school pictures. All I want is 1 8x10 and 2 5x7s of each child (& I would pay $20 for this). Minimum I can pay to get what I want is a package that costs $43 (it has a ton of wallets & exchanges which I really don't want). They take one shot with a plain colored background. This will be the first year in 11 years that I am not going to purchase the school pictures. I usually shoot sports or landscapes but I'm open to trying something new. I have a new tactic this year. I am "hiring" each of my children to spend two hours with me where I can practice shooting them outside in natural light (no pouting/whining allowed!!), hopefully I will be able to come up with something suitable.

Stephanie

This is why I started doing school photos. I was fed up with the terrible quality I was seeing in the photos of my own kids and my students, and I hated the packages that were offered. I also noticed, at the preschool age, that the process was a little scary for the kids. I take a gentler approach and get great results.

I send home three proofs on an order form, but I also offer online ordering and show as many good shots as I got of each kid. This allows me to offer the quirky shots, too (funny expressions, pouting, etc.).

indiegirl

GadgetRick wrote: »

Well, although I understand where you're coming from, at the end of the day, why have a bid process? I mean, the schools aren't profiting from this in any way so there shouldn't be a bid process. Typical government BS...

However, I agree, they shouldn't be changing their pricing.

The bid process makes it seem like the decision is fair and impartial.

iCandi

I was asked (surprisingly) to do preschool photos this year. My daughter attends a local preschool and the teacher caught word that I did photography and asked me to come up with packages, etc.

I was stumped at what to charge - my first time ever doing anything like that. I tried to do some research but you'd be surprised to find people are tight lipped about what they charge schools, etc.

My advice, try to ask around about school photos. It's about that time of year and some parents can offer you a look into what they are paying to go with a big photography business who specializes in that type of photography.

I kept it simple. My highest package was $30 and my lowest package was $10. I had an 'al la carte' option, and they could quantity up the packages. I wanted to make sure everyone could afford the photos because as a mother, I know how precious having those memories really are.

(Whether we love the photos or hate them lol)

Good luck with it. Mine is Thursday and Friday of this week. Keep us posted on the final say so.

GadgetRick

indiegirl wrote: »

The bid process makes it seem like the decision is fair and impartial.

Oh I know that but I think everyone knows (by now) this is a BS process.

GadgetRick

iCandi wrote: »

I was asked (surprisingly) to do preschool photos this year. My daughter attends a local preschool and the teacher caught word that I did photography and asked me to come up with packages, etc.

I was stumped at what to charge - my first time ever doing anything like that. I tried to do some research but you'd be surprised to find people are tight lipped about what they charge schools, etc.

My advice, try to ask around about school photos. It's about that time of year and some parents can offer you a look into what they are paying to go with a big photography business who specializes in that type of photography.

I kept it simple. My highest package was $30 and my lowest package was $10. I had an 'al la carte' option, and they could quantity up the packages. I wanted to make sure everyone could afford the photos because as a mother, I know how precious having those memories really are.

(Whether we love the photos or hate them lol)

Good luck with it. Mine is Thursday and Friday of this week. Keep us posted on the final say so.

I know what you mean. When I did my first shoot like this I couldn't find anyone who would give an idea on prices. Since my son is in school, I'll have the prices this company charges when they do photos this year.

indiegirl

GadgetRick wrote: »

Oh I know that but I think everyone knows (by now) this is a BS process.

Totally. It's a move to CYA on the part of the schools. Protection from nepotism and monopolies and the ever-lovely threat of a lawsuit. When it's one person making the call, the process is more about CYA. When it's a panel, I think the process gets a bit more meaningful.

I've noticed that big studios like to sign schools for three years at at time. Blech! I'm facing that situation with a Jewish Day School right now. They want to hire me but face huge penalties if they break their contract.

Sam

GadgetRick wrote: »

Oh I know that but I think everyone knows (by now) this is a BS process.

Rick,

There is nothing wrong with a bidding process. How it is implemented, and the rules will determin if it is BS or not.

Generally an organization seeking the bids is under no obligation to take the lowest bid, but the bids and process are open to the public to review. So in the case of a public entity like the school, parents and the community have access to the process.

I have been on both sides of the bidding process with private and public entities. Currently I need a new roof on my house. I have contacted several companies and will get quotes from them. IE: My personal little bid process.

Sam

GadgetRick

Sam wrote: »

Rick,

There is nothing wrong with a bidding process. How it is implemented, and the rules will determin if it is BS or not.

Generally an organization seeking the bids is under no obligation to take the lowest bid, but the bids and process are open to the public to review. So in the case of a public entity like the school, parents and the community have access to the process.

I have been on both sides of the bidding process with private and public entities. Currently I need a new roof on my house. I have contacted several companies and will get quotes from them. IE: My personal little bid process.

Sam

I've been on both sides of the bidding process myself--including helping write bid specs--but this is not a bid. A bid is where you're saying I'll provide this product/service for this price to YOU and YOU will pay me. As a photog doing this, you aren't providing the service to the school nor is the school paying for it out of their funds in any way. So why, exactly, a bid if it really doesn't mean anything (other than CYA).

I it were a bid for the school purchasing a product/service, ok, I'm with ya, but this isn't that at all.