Monitor Calibration Advice
edmacke
Registered Users Posts: 22 Big grins
I'm ready to venture down the path of color calibration, and need some advice...
I know this is a oft-discussed topic, but I'm finding it surprisingly hard to find up-to-date, useful advice!
Background: I use Lightroom for 99% of my editing. I use SmugMug for 99% of my printing. I have the SmugMug color calibration prints. Currently, I have a low-end Dell 19" monitor (1907 FPC) with a Radeon X600 256M graphics card and Win XP. I try to edit in a dim room, but that doesn't always happen. I don't do softproofing.
Requirements: Simple... I want my monitor calibrated!
I don't need anything fancy, but I do need it to accurately calibrate the system that I have. I don't think that's asking too much. If I plunk down $150 for a monitor calibrator, it'd BETTER be able to calibrate my $50 monitor. Also, I don't want it to be obsolete when I upgrade to another machine (probably another Dell or HP, again with a low-end monitor) with Win7 (probably 32-bit, but maybe 64).
I'm PC-savvy, so I don't mind doing advanced settings, but that should be an optional step to make the default even better, not a requirement to overcome some rudimentary flaw or poorly designed software. The worst case would obviously be that I buy Brand X, only to find out I've completely wasted my money because ____ [fill in the blank with some hair-pulling, frustrating reason].
From my research, it seems like the sweet spot might be the Spyder3 Pro 4.0. The Spyder3 Elite is $50 more - I'm not sure if that would be money well-spent or money wasted. Upgrading from Pro to Elite after the fact is $100, so if I need Elite I want to know BEFORE I buy it, not after!
Also on my radar is the X-Rite i1Display 2, but it's slightly more than the Spyder3 Elite so what do I get for my money?
What I'm looking for is my best shot for success.
I know this is a oft-discussed topic, but I'm finding it surprisingly hard to find up-to-date, useful advice!
Background: I use Lightroom for 99% of my editing. I use SmugMug for 99% of my printing. I have the SmugMug color calibration prints. Currently, I have a low-end Dell 19" monitor (1907 FPC) with a Radeon X600 256M graphics card and Win XP. I try to edit in a dim room, but that doesn't always happen. I don't do softproofing.
Requirements: Simple... I want my monitor calibrated!
I don't need anything fancy, but I do need it to accurately calibrate the system that I have. I don't think that's asking too much. If I plunk down $150 for a monitor calibrator, it'd BETTER be able to calibrate my $50 monitor. Also, I don't want it to be obsolete when I upgrade to another machine (probably another Dell or HP, again with a low-end monitor) with Win7 (probably 32-bit, but maybe 64).
I'm PC-savvy, so I don't mind doing advanced settings, but that should be an optional step to make the default even better, not a requirement to overcome some rudimentary flaw or poorly designed software. The worst case would obviously be that I buy Brand X, only to find out I've completely wasted my money because ____ [fill in the blank with some hair-pulling, frustrating reason].
From my research, it seems like the sweet spot might be the Spyder3 Pro 4.0. The Spyder3 Elite is $50 more - I'm not sure if that would be money well-spent or money wasted. Upgrading from Pro to Elite after the fact is $100, so if I need Elite I want to know BEFORE I buy it, not after!
Also on my radar is the X-Rite i1Display 2, but it's slightly more than the Spyder3 Elite so what do I get for my money?
What I'm looking for is my best shot for success.
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1907FPC or is it a "V" as in 1907FPV ??
The "C" I'm not so sure about but the "V" has a decent PVA TFT LCD panel in it - very usable.
dim... me neither as I think it is hard on the eyes and like an overly bright room, it can really play with your perception of levels.
I currently use the i1 Display2 after using a Spyder2 Pro for several years. I find the software lacking in information though the unit seems to do a reasonable job. If I was to buy another calibrator today, I'd get the Spyder3 Elite.
The Elite allows you to set targets for white and/or black luminance. The PRO only reports what your what luminance is after calibration - there is no specific set of tasks that take you through trying to meet a target. White luminance is the method by which you measure and control the brightness of your monitor.
The i1Display2 also allows you to target a specific white luminance value but not black to the best of my knowledge though it does report your black level in the after calibration report.
If you ever go to a dual monitor system you'll find the extra $$ well worth it for the Elite or i1Display2 as you can ensure each monitor is at an identical brightness .
Also, I was involved with a conversation elsewhere on hardware calibrators and there was a lot of debate on how well the i1Display2 handles wide gamut monitors. There were a few comments on the Elite but nothing slamming it too hard - I believe the mfg supports it being used for wide gamut monitors.
Btw... currently at B&H the Elite is selling for less than the i1Display2.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/525541-REG/Datacolor_DC_S3EL100_Spyder3Elite_Display_Calibration_System.html
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Your best shot for success (and being PC savvy) is to go 64 bit, as you know! And get more than a $50 monitor, as you should know! But if you can only afford a $50 monitor, then I'd suggest to not be so demanding on the calibration eq.
If you've done any reading at all in this and other forums, you'll quickly realize that your monitor will determine the outcome you get via calibration as much as anything.
Definitely the 1907FPC.
Thanks. From what I understand, the Elite version since it does everything, and the Pro and Express versions are crippled to varying degrees. My gut was telling me to go with the Elite version since there were some important features missing from the lesser versions - your post kind of seems to confirm that.
Well, actually the other thing I do a lot of is video editing with Adobe Premiere Elements. From what I've read, that works much better in a 32-bit OS (at least for now). If I went 64-bit, I'd probably also upgrade to PremierePro or the entire CS5 suite, so 64-bit is kind of a slippery slope, $$$-wise.
Yeah, I know - and that's something I need to think about. Generally I put my PC dollars into other areas (more memory, bigger hard drive, the usual); maybe I need to break down and get a better monitor. And I might.
However, I don't think it's too demanding to expect a color calibrator to calibrate my colors. I'm not asking it to make my cheap-o monitor look like a $1000 wide gamut display, I just want it to make my colors as accurate as my monitor is capable of. If there's some sort of minimum spec that's needed that my system doesn't meet, then I'd expect that spec to be mentioned beforehand and if my low-end LCD doesn't meet those specs then I'd be fine with it not working. But if the product doesn't mention any minimum requirements, and I buy it, and it turns my colors orange and I have to start troubleshooting and hair-pulling to figure out what it's doing wrong, that's where I get a little peeved.
I guess that's one of my questions for the forum is whether the Spyder3, for example, would be able to work on my system or would another choice work better? Or alternatively, is it really just a waste of time to try even calibrating my low-end monitor with any tool...
I think even the Spyder2pro would be fine. I sold one here this year for cheap! While I do think it is possible for calibration eq. to give issues just like everything else, I also think the issues you'll run into will be related to your monitor choice more than your Calibration choice.
Now I have a Spyder Express for sale.
Good luck in your (never ending) search.
www.leefortier.com
That's kind of the conclusion I was coming, too, as well. Good to know.
I hadn't thought of that... that's a good idea that I'll check out!
That's helpful to know. And I can live with that. I wouldn't have a problem getting a better monitor if my current monitor can be tweaked due to its shortcomings - I kind of knew the monitor was low-end when I bought it and knowingly made the trade-off of performance for price.
What I would have a problem with is if my current monitor couldn't be tweaked due to the calibrator shortcomings, because I am specifically trying to avoid sacrificing performance with my calibration tools. If that makes sense.
It does indeed make sense. It makes good sense.
I just do not think that is going to be an issue. I think the issue is more akin to the saying: Put lipstick on a Pig, and it's still a Pig!
I do think spending wisely is a good idea as is planning for your future acquisitions: monitor-wise. The Sypder2Pro I spoke of that I had owned I am certain was some nice lipstick at it's inception, and when I bought it.
But I bought it to calibrate my own Pig. I somehow managed, but it wasn't pretty and it was no real fun for me to never be quite sure what I had in Pig-ville. It took me three honest years to find the Money to buy a Nice monitor, and wouldn't ya know it, it even has it's own calibrator made specifically for it ( add money to total!). So do think about that when you buy a calibration device.
I like your analogy!
So just out of curiosity, what monitor did you get, and what specs make it better than your average pig?
Despite trying to do research, I forever seem to be running into the "I thought I bought something halfway decent only to find out later it sucks" syndrome, so I'd like to know what to keep an eye out for when purchasing my next monitor.
Maybe a different thread?
I can guess at what monitor angevin1 is using - it is likely an NEC, Eizo, Lacie, or the HP LP2480zx.
I think you already know of the key point with LCD monitors - they must use either an IPS or PVA TFT LCD panel for ensuring that your editing and viewing experience be at its' best.
IPS monitors are much more common today than they were two years ago. At the top end of the market you can acquire one of those Eizo's or Lacies's for $3000 to $4500 USD for a 24" 1920x1200.
At the budget end of the market you can acquire a 21.5" 1920x1080 8bit e-IPS panel monitor with about 100% coverage of the sRGB color space for about $200 (on sale). This budget monitor will simply blow away your current monitor in terms of image quality both in color consistency and accuracy and in viewability.
However.... in regards to the monitors being offered by a number of manufacturers, I'm coming to view the current state of affairs as falling within the famous quote... "It was the best of time, it was the worst of time."
We're seeing IPS panel monitors on the streets for the lowest pricing ever but we're also seeing some optical issues within a certain range of these monitors.
Before going a whole lot deeper into this, a question for you - is working in the sRGB color space adequate or do you work in the AdobeRGB or ProPhotoRGB space or want to work in those last two spaces?
Consider that your current monitor almost certainly does not cover 100% of the sRGB space.
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Newsy knows, cause he is the guy that turned me on to NEC!
It's this one. The NECPA241W and it is superb. I say that because of several reasons, not the least of which is in conjunction with it's calibration device, once I initiate the calibrator, it does everything else, including making the adjustments for me and writing them to the Monitors internal software. It also auto-magically adjusts to whatever the room brightness happens to be at the time. Also there is software that is down-loadable at the NEC site that allows me to switch easily from different color spaces as desired (called MultiProfiler). And though it is relatively small-ish at 24inches, I find that the size works for me, just fine!
I ordered the color cal prints from Bay after I got it, and it appears to be right on the money.
So, those are a few of the things I really like about this Monitor.
Thanks again Newsy!
I think you have vastly overrated my monitor knowledge!
"Budget" is another word I recognize! Can you give me more specifics on these guys... manufacturer, model #, or even brands to stay away from.
Edit: For example, one HP system I'm looking at has a HP2710m at $350, but the HP.com specs just say "27-inch TFT LCD active matrix". Nothing about IPS or PVA.
Honestly, I'm pretty new to the whole color space / calibration thing, so I'm not sure. I've never been happy with the difference between how my images look on my monitor and how they come off printed, and have just recently begun to start finding a way to fix the problem.
Everywhere I read says Step #1 is to ensure your monitor is calibrated, and that's where I am now. I thought Step #1A would be to get a monitor calibrator (which was the start of this thread), but it seems like maybe Step 1A is to get a new monitor and Step #1B is to get a calibrator?
I can tell you this: almost all of my work is done with RAW images in Lightroom (v2.4) which I believe is ProPhotoRGB and unchangeable. So I think the answer to your question is ProPhoto. My pics are almost handled by SmugMug (EZ Prints).
My prints aren't going on gallery walls, they are mostly going in my family photo albums and on my living room walls. So I don't need perfection - I just want to know that what I'm looking at on my monitor is what I'll be looking at on my wall (or as close as possible).
Does that help?
OK, did a little more research. The Wikipedia article on Dell monitors has several variations of "IPS" listed: IPS, S-IPS, e-IPS, and H-IPS; and a couple variations on "PVA": PVA and S-PVA. I feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole.
What, if any, difference is there between all these?
Czech out this Thread...bout four or five posts down the page...
For starters, here is an article on TFT LCD panel technologies:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm
In terms of image quality for photo editing, these are the TFT LCD panel types from best to worst:
IPS (newer variants are S-IPS, AS-IPS, H-IPS, e-IPS, etc)
PVA (newer variants are S-PVA, c-PVA)
MVA (newer variants are A-MVA, P-MVA, S-MVA, etc)
TN
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MVA is, for all intents and purposes, no longer made.
PVA, specifically S-PVA is still to be found in some high end monitors but is getting more rare. Samsung uses PVA panels extensively and they are about the only OEM of them. The image on them can be very good with the right electronics.
IPS has really come out of nowhere since January 2009 when the Dell 2209WA, using an e-IPS panel, was introduced and turned our little world upside down. An inexpensive IPS panel and a solid image which could be had for about $200 on sale. They sold out of their first shipment from their Asian supplier by end of March 2009. Almost all IPS panels are supplied by LG Display.
Since then we have seen a number of decent low cost IPS monitors introduced.
Your current monitor uses a "TN" TFT panel. TN is great for gamers due its' fast screen refresh and is great for almost everyone else because it is inexpensive. However, it has a major flaw in its limited viewing angles. At minor off angles from straight on, there is a shift in the gamma/color of the TN panel. Viewing angles are normally stated as 160° horizontal and 160° vertical - sometimes you will see 170° stated for horizontal. On some TN panels you can see that the centre of the screen is different than the top and bottom which will appear to be darker bands. On all TN panels, if you view the panel from the bottom side, you will see the image shift to almost a film negative like appearance. This is the surefire test if you are in a store looking at a monitor.
IPS and PVA panels have wider usable viewing angles. These are reported as 178° for horizontal and vertical.
You can see the difference here - TN on left, IPS on right.
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=23&mo1=448&p1=4446&ma2=88&mo2=477&p2=4862&ph=8
You can also check out the "IPS vs TN" videos on YouTube.
IPS and PVA are both much better than TN for color accuracy at off angles. However, they're not perfect. PVA's are known for their deep blacks and great contrast but they have an inherent "Black Crush" issue. Viewed straight on the detail in dark areas will be hidden, appearing dark. Move your head over to one side and you will see the dark lighten up and detail will emerge. Recent IPS panels have issues with Tinting - often with a white or light gray background you can see a faint green on the left and red on the right, and sometimes the bottom quarter of the screen may have a yellow tint.
Many (most?) people don't notice these issues but a lot do, especially people whose business is image processing.
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The other kicker about TN panels is that they all have a 6bit color depth, as in:
6bit Red + 6bit Green + 8bit Blue = 18bit = 262,000 colors
When you read that TFT article you will see that they mention electronics techniques, dithering and FRC (Frame Rate Control), which are used to simulate an 8bit panel. In this case the manufacture will list a specification for the panel supporting up to 16.2 million colors. This is another tell tale for a TN panel. Some manufacturers however simply state 16.7 million colors - it is possible, but I've never been able to confirm it with documentation, that there are 8bit TN panels out there. I will doubt it until someone copies a link to me.
TN panels with budget electronics will often exhibit banding/posterization effects.
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IPS and PVA panel are a minimum of 8bit - some recent panels claim 10bit but from what I've read, these are 8bit panels using dithering and FRC to simulate a 10bit panel.
8bit Red + 8bit Green + 8bit Blue = 24bit = 16.7 million colors
10bit RGB = 30bit = over a billion colors
Like TN panels, if you have budget electronics in the monitor, you will have issues with the image quality in one way or another. A $3000 Eizo CG245w, that is QC checked at 25 points, is going to give you an A+ image while the Dell U2410, which is QC checked at one point, is going to have issues (and it sure does!) yet they both use a similar TFT panel.
You can check panels here:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/panelsearch.htm
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/panels.php
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The color space the monitor can offer is somewhat independent of the panel type. It is directly related to the back light.
Most of the low cost IPS and PVA LCD monitors will offer close to or 100% of the sRGB color space.
If you are shooting RAW and extracting to ProPhotoRGB, which btw you can change in Lightroom to sRGB or AdobeRGB, then you will need a wide gamut monitor to see all the nuances. Your current monitor is not capable of showing the full gamut of ProPhotoRGB - you may get some surprises when you view your current images on a wide gamut monitor for the first time.
However... if you are providing images to SmugMug to print, I was under the impression they only accepted sRGB embedded images. Certainly with their online viewing, they want uploaded images in the sRGB space.
So are you sure about the color space your images are in?
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This post has info on some budget IPS monitors but there are others - these are all standard sRGB color space.
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1371823&postcount=10
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First of all, thanks so much.... this has got to be one of the most useful posts I've read on a forum anywhere!
Re: color space. I'm not 100% sure, but my understanding is that Lightroom's color space (ProPhoto) can't be changed - at least in the version 2.4 that I'm using. What can be changed is the color space of the images that are exported from LR. In other words, LR uses ProPhoto for RAW conversion, viewing, and editing, etc., but the exported JPG images can be ProPhoto, AdobeRGB, or sRGB.
FWIW, all of my JPGs are exported in sRGB, following this advice.
This is very useful. For my next system, I'm looking at either a Dell, HP, or maybe ZT Systems, so I like that there's a Dell, HP, and NEC choice. Most likely, it will be Dell, so that 2209WA looks like a winner.
Aint it great?!!