Lightroom 3 Noise reduction question

bgarlandbgarland Registered Users Posts: 761 Major grins
edited January 30, 2011 in Finishing School
I have been using Lightroom for a few years now. I upgraded to LR3 when it came out and installed the 3.2 upgrade. What I am noticing is that when I apply noise reduction either color or luminescence I don't see the resulting noise reduced image unless I zoom in to 1:1. Once zoomed in you initially see the original noise and then once processed and updated the zoomed in image is clean and crisp.

Then if I toggle back to the normal full fit view I can still see the original noise in the image. Zoom back in again and the noise is gone.

Now if I export the image as a JPG, the noise reduction is obviously applied as expected. Also when I print the image the noise reduction is always applied as expected.

My question is why do I not see the noise reduction in my image when I am viewing the full image in fit mode, only once I zoom in?
Brad

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/

Comments

  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,967 moderator
    edited September 24, 2010
    That's just the way the program works. You need to be at 100% to see the effect of NR and sharpening as well. I guess Adobe's designers figured that nobody would be so heavy handed as to try to make these adjustments at less than full resolution. They obviously weren't taking me into account. lol3.gif It's a bit of a pain, but you'll get used to it.
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  • bgarlandbgarland Registered Users Posts: 761 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    Richard wrote: »
    That's just the way the program works. You need to be at 100% to see the effect of NR and sharpening as well. I guess Adobe's designers figured that nobody would be so heavy handed as to try to make these adjustments at less than full resolution. They obviously weren't taking me into account. lol3.gif It's a bit of a pain, but you'll get used to it.

    I kinda figured that was the case it was just bugging me when working on noisy night shots. I would like to see the clean version when viewing the full image.

    Oh well, like you said, I'll get used to it. Thanks for the verification.
    Brad

    http://bgarland.smugmug.com/
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    No, no, no. Seriously. In LR3, you SHOULD NOT have to be at 1:1 to see the result of NR. I don't know whut it is, but you has a prollem. In LR1 & LR2, yes. But not in LR3. I love LR3.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • bgarlandbgarland Registered Users Posts: 761 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    No, no, no. Seriously. In LR3, you SHOULD NOT have to be at 1:1 to see the result of NR. I don't know what it is, but you has a problem. In LR1 & LR2, yes. But not in LR3. I love LR3.

    :D oops your correct. I have a problem and it's me.rolleyes1.gif

    I went back and took a closer look at some problem images that were giving me that impression. I do in fact see the noise reduction at full view without having to zoom into 1:1.

    On the images where I thought I was seeing the noise not reduced at full view it was really some redish blotches and speckled bands that appeared in the dark sky if I pushed the exposure or fill light way up beyond what was possible for those images. What I was seeing was not the normal color or luminescent noise that can be filtered it was (in my words) the image falling apart from being pushed too far.

    Once pushed to that point the noise reduction filters had no effect on the problem at any zoom level.

    Bottom line, I retract my problem statement now that I understand it was user error. You can't make something out of nothing if the data is not there to begin with. :D If the image needs to be pushed that far it was not captured properly when taken and should be dumped in the bit bucket.

    Thanks for motivating me to look closer at my problem.
    Brad

    http://bgarland.smugmug.com/
  • bgarlandbgarland Registered Users Posts: 761 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    Just as an experiment I pushed a night image to the point where that red specked noise surfaced in the dark sky that the LR3 NR had no effect on. I turned off all LR NR and then opened the image in CS4 and ran NoiseWare against it. Noiseware did catch the red speckles and did a decent job cleaning them up.

    So in some cases Noiseware seems to have a bit more capability than the LR NR.

    That being said, Noiseware had to hit the image hard enough to wipe out a lot of detail so you wouldn't want to do that unless you localized the filter on just the problem area of the image.

    This is all just educational play for me. I don't think in reality you would ever want to push an image that far and if you did you wouldn't end up with anything usable. :D
    Brad

    http://bgarland.smugmug.com/
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    I don't know why the Develop panel in LR3 isn't set up with the Noise Reduction dialog on the top of the pile, so to speak. I am of the opinion that NR should be done first thing, before any other tweaks are applied.

    I have set up default settings for each of my cameras, at all ISOs, so NR (and only NR) is automatically applied on import. That way I don't forget to do it first. I have Noise Ninja and used to love it, but exept for some comparisons I did early on, after I upgraded to LR3 I've never used it.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    I don't know why the Develop panel in LR3 isn't set up with the Noise Reduction dialog on the top of the pile, so to speak. I am of the opinion that NR should be done first thing, before any other tweaks are applied.

    I have set up default settings for each of my cameras, at all ISOs, so NR (and only NR) is automatically applied on import. That way I don't forget to do it first. I have Noise Ninja and used to love it, but exept for some comparisons I did early on, after I upgraded to LR3 I've never used it.
    When you apply multiple adjustments in LR, LR decides what order to actually apply them to the original image. If you were in a bitmap editor like Photoshop, the order would be important and I'd agree NR should be done first, but in LR, you don't have to do it first and, in fact, you will get the same result whether you do it first or last.
    --John
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  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited September 24, 2010
    Good info to know! Thanks.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,967 moderator
    edited September 25, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    No, no, no. Seriously. In LR3, you SHOULD NOT have to be at 1:1 to see the result of NR. I don't know whut it is, but you has a prollem. In LR1 & LR2, yes. But not in LR3. I love LR3.

    Hmm...I stand corrected. Perhaps LR3 works differently than ACR 6.2, which is what I use. Here's what the Adobe ACR help file says:
    Important: When making noise reduction adjustments, first zoom in on the preview image to at least 100% to see the noise reduction previewed.
    It's probably a good idea to be at 100% in any event, as NR adjustments are subtle and apt to be hard to evaluate at smaller scales.
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  • w4lletw4llet Registered Users Posts: 1 Beginner grinner
    edited October 1, 2010
    I have the same problem about fit view and noise reduction filter.

    BUT, I CAN CONFIRM: if you first go to 1:1 and than apply noise reduction, when u get back to Fit view you will see the corrected image. Voillá!!!!!!!!!

    It is a stupid bug, maybe its preview cache related!

    And stop trying to explaing "that is the way LR3 works.... get it used to". IT IS NOT. ITS A DAMN BUG.

    ADOBE CORRECT IT PLEASE. It wasnt in lr3 beta, but it is present in the final version.....
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited October 1, 2010
    w4llet wrote: »
    I have the same problem about fit view and noise reduction filter.

    BUT, I CAN CONFIRM: if you first go to 1:1 and than apply noise reduction, when u get back to Fit view you will see the corrected image. Voillá!!!!!!!!!

    It is a stupid bug, maybe its preview cache related!

    And stop trying to explaing "that is the way LR3 works.... get it used to". IT IS NOT. ITS A DAMN BUG.

    ADOBE CORRECT IT PLEASE. It wasnt in lr3 beta, but it is present in the final version.....
    You can call it a bug if you want, but Adobe clearly knows it's this way and documents it. If your image is in Fit View and you mess with the Sharpening or Noise Reduction, you will get symbol in the upper left of that panel:

    2010-10-01_1750.png

    If you hover over it, it says: "For a more accurate preview, zoom the preview size to 100% or larger when adjusting the controls in this panel". If you click on that symbol, it zooms you to 100% and shows the more accurate preview.
    --John
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  • jdubbullyoojdubbullyoo Registered Users Posts: 1 Beginner grinner
    edited January 30, 2011
    Noise reduction in JPEG=yes; in RAW= ehhh maybe.
    assuming you are using a file that was imported into LR3 and not an older version of LR, you should be using the Process Version 2010. In the PV2010 algorithm, if the image is a JPEG/TIFF/PSD then you should be able to see all NR adjustments in the Develop Fit view. However, with RAW images, the Develop Fit preview is supposedly "adaptive". Apparently "adaptive" means... whether or not you can see the NR in Fit View depends on how likely you are to see the noise.
    So yeah? Clear as mud right?

    See if you can make more sense out of the info than I can.
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,708 moderator
    edited January 30, 2011
    bgarland wrote: »
    Just as an experiment I pushed a night image to the point where that red specked noise surfaced in the dark sky that the LR3 NR had no effect on. I turned off all LR NR and then opened the image in CS4 and ran NoiseWare against it. Noiseware did catch the red speckles and did a decent job cleaning them up.

    So in some cases Noiseware seems to have a bit more capability than the LR NR.

    That being said, Noiseware had to hit the image hard enough to wipe out a lot of detail so you wouldn't want to do that unless you localized the filter on just the problem area of the image.

    This is all just educational play for me. I don't think in reality you would ever want to push an image that far and if you did you wouldn't end up with anything usable. :D


    I don't think there is any doubt that NoiseWare can be more effective at noise removal than LR3, that has certainly been my experience as well. NoiseWare can damage fine detail also if not used with a light touch. And I thoroughly agree that noise reduction in Photoshop should take advantage of the selection tools and be done on a layer. I reduce noise in skies that way quite frequently.

    Having said that, many lower ISO images in LR3 no longer need an external editing path for noise management, as the intrinsic noise reduction in LR3 is more than adequate for many images ( for me - at least ).

    I also agree that I see no reason not to update all my files to 2010 camera profiles and algorithm.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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