Thought on pricing

Sam

I shot a one year old's birthday last night (see post in the people forum), and spoke with a young lady hired as a fairy to entertain the kids. She was great and the kids loved her. After she was done I spoke to her and asked about her rates. She basically charges $100.00 per hour.

My point here is not that she didn't do a great job or if she was worth the $100.00 per hour, but to get y'all to think about your pricing. Think about it, if parents are willing to spend $100.00 per hour on a entertainer at their child's party, what are high quality photos that will bring back the memories of this event and last a life time worth?

Remember the entertainer doesn't have any work to do when the event is over, but we sure do!

Just my thoughts...............

Sam

Angelo

but unfortunately most people don't trust their personal talents to pull off an entertaining character performance while many think (emphasis, THINK) they can shoot pictures just as good as anyone else.

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Snowgirl

Angelo wrote: »

but unfortunately most people don't trust their personal talents to pull off an entertaining character performance while many think (emphasis, THINK) they can shoot pictures just as good as anyone else.

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Ain't THAT the truth!

Glort

I have had so many people ring me to cover kids parties over the years even though I have never promoted or wanted the work.

But it is exactly the case as specified here.

I have quoted $100 as a silly price just to test the reactions which are always the same.... Shock, gasp,, horror, " We only want a few snaps taken".

Really? So would you drive across the city, stuff round for 2 hours because you NEVER get in and out in 1 hour, then drive back invariably in traffic for $100. Aside from all else, if someone runs into your car, your up for a min of $500 excess straight away if they are not insured as so many arent these days.
No way you would so why the hell do you expect me to?

The thing is though, If these same people rang an electrician to come change a lightbulb or a fuse or a plumber to change a tap washer, they would think $100 would be the minimum they would pay ( here at least) yet if they took an hour they would be doing something very wrong.

I supposed it is a product of the digital age where everyone thinks they can take a decent pic and also the follow on of an industry so contaminated by hackers that think a dollar earned is a dollar net profit and the creation of an image is the same as taking a real Photograph.

I think that while some markets for a photographer will always be around, as camera's get better and peoples expectations get lower, some business will just fade away.

Maybe not all together a bad thing.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote: »

I have had so many people ring me to cover kids parties over the years even though I have never promoted or wanted the work.

But it is exactly the case as specified here.

I have quoted $100 as a silly price just to test the reactions which are always the same.... Shock, gasp,, horror, " We only want a few snaps taken".

Really? So would you drive across the city, stuff round for 2 hours because you NEVER get in and out in 1 hour, then drive back invariably in traffic for $100. Aside from all else, if someone runs into your car, your up for a min of $500 excess straight away if they are not insured as so many arent these days.
No way you would so why the hell do you expect me to?

The thing is though, If these same people rang an electrician to come change a lightbulb or a fuse or a plumber to change a tap washer, they would think $100 would be the minimum they would pay ( here at least) yet if they took an hour they would be doing something very wrong.

I supposed it is a product of the digital age where everyone thinks they can take a decent pic and also the follow on of an industry so contaminated by hackers that think a dollar earned is a dollar net profit and the creation of an image is the same as taking a real Photograph.

I think that while some markets for a photographer will always be around, as camera's get better and peoples expectations get lower, some business will just fade away.

Maybe not all together a bad thing.

Good and accurate examples. It's all in the perception of value. The portion of business that will always remain will be the high-end stuff where people pay 'big' bucks, expect 'big' results, and proudly hang their photographs on their walls - at home or at work.

The low-end stuff will always be available with no profit margin - or for that matter, you'd be lucky to cover your costs.

This has been a year of self-examination for me in determining what I am willing to do and for how much. It's been interesting. i've learned a lot and now I'm going to digest it all and figure out what I will, or won't, do in the coming years. But whatever I do, there has to be a profit in it for me - or I'll simply create photographs for my own pleasure.

rt2photo

I deal with this a lot. My wife is a semi-professional belly dancer, and frequently is hired to dance at parties, weddings etc. The local dance community has almost price locked themselves at $10 per minute (a 10 minute show will be $100, 30 minute show, $300 etc). They justify it based on the expense they put into their training, costumes, choreography, props - then travel and such.

Now, when I try and sell them a portrait photography package - specifically built for the dancers (locations and backdrops, my wife on hand for makeup/hair/props/guidance) - with enough time built in for a couple of costume changes, a set package of digital files afterwards (they never want prints), and tell them it's $250 - they tell me I'm too expensive, and instead head over to the chick who shoots for free in "available light only" (she's scared of using a flash - I've worked with her before), then get crappy results ...

It's tough!

deb22

Hi, I am in the "make it or break it" train of thought. I charge what I want period, and do however get the person who thinks they can go out and get a perfect shot of a snowy owl and I give them all the encouragement to do so. They always come back the following year and say it's not as easy as they thought and end up buying an owl shot. Those that are serious about wanting something will pay and I no longer worry about those on the fence. It saves me the agrivation and bitter taste I used to have when confronting people about pricing always worrying if i am to low or to high. Now I enjoy it better[ You do have to chose your target market a little better]

chrisjohnson

Sam wrote: »

I shot a one year old's birthday last night (see post in the people forum), and spoke with a young lady hired as a fairy to entertain the kids. She was great and the kids loved her. After she was done I spoke to her and asked about her rates. She basically charges $100.00 per hour.

My point here is not that she didn't do a great job or if she was worth the $100.00 per hour, but to get y'all to think about your pricing. Think about it, if parents are willing to spend $100.00 per hour on a entertainer at their child's party, what are high quality photos that will bring back the memories of this event and last a life time worth?

Remember the entertainer doesn't have any work to do when the event is over, but we sure do!

Just my thoughts...............

Sam

People pay big money for kids parties to make the kids smile and keep them occupied - just having their photo taken does not help the kids enjoy themselves in itself....

The way to earn a decent slice of the budget is to make the kids smile too - maybe have some fancy dress clothes and a game to play (role play?), a video stream to the tv to play at the end of the party. Maybe you should dress up too. When the mums and dads arrive to pick the children up you have some prints ready for taking orders and kids all charged up by watching themselves on tv to insist that their poor parents handover their cash.

If it goes well the kids will be insisting on having that amusing photo person along for their party too. If you have no idea what to do then maybe this is not your scene, otherwise you need to talk to a primary school teacher and develop 2-3 story lines.

To my mind the value proposition you need to develop is centered around helping the desperate parent sentenced by the calendar to organizing this annual event to turn it into a success in the minds of their children. It is much less to do with creating life-time memories. Done right you will blow the fairy away.

Snowgirl

goldenballs wrote: »

People pay big money for kids parties to make the kids smile and keep them occupied - just having their photo taken does not help the kids enjoy themselves in itself....

The way to earn a decent slice of the budget is to make the kids smile too - maybe have some fancy dress clothes and a game to play (role play?), a video stream to the tv to play at the end of the party. Maybe you should dress up too. When the mums and dads arrive to pick the children up you have some prints ready for taking orders and kids all charged up by watching themselves on tv to insist that their poor parents handover their cash.

If it goes well the kids will be insisting on having that amusing photo person along for their party too. If you have no idea what to do then maybe this is not your scene, otherwise you need to talk to a primary school teacher and develop 2-3 story lines.

To my mind the value proposition you need to develop is centered around helping the desperateJ parent sentenced by the calendar to organizing this annual event to turn it into a success in the minds of their children. It is much less to do with creating life-time memories. Done right you will blow the fairy away.

You have made some excellent points and suggestions.

angevin1

goldenballs wrote: »

People pay big money for kids parties to make the kids smile and keep them occupied - just having their photo taken does not help the kids enjoy themselves in itself....

The way to earn a decent slice of the budget is to make the kids smile too - maybe have some fancy dress clothes and a game to play (role play?), a video stream to the tv to play at the end of the party. Maybe you should dress up too. When the mums and dads arrive to pick the children up you have some prints ready for taking orders and kids all charged up by watching themselves on tv to insist that their poor parents handover their cash.


To my mind the value proposition you need to develop is centered around helping the desperate parent sentenced by the calendar to organizing this annual event to turn it into a success in the minds of their children. It is much less to do with creating life-time memories. Done right you will blow the fairy away.

I saw this in action this year in a Wedding, the last I shot. The D.J. was an Uber M.C! And I was able to capture on film and Video the games he had the couple play along with the Wedding party. It was a knock out! And I learned something!

Glort

I guess a lot depends what you want to do... be a kids entertainer that takes pictures or a professional photographer. I spose we have to delve into the entertainment role in many things we do but I can't see myself going to that much effort to photograph kids at a party although there could be decent money in it for those that would.
But then again.... Most parents look at these things as 2 hours free babysitting. I can't imagine someone trying to flog pics when the parentsle come get the little spawns of satin doing too well at all really.

The idea has merit but honestly, I hate doing parties of any kind and just like I'm not interested in landscape or macro photography, there is no way I'm going to be clowning up for a bunch of kids either!

Snowgirl

Glort wrote: »

I guess a lot depends what you want to do... be a kids entertainer that takes pictures or a professional photographer. I spose we have to delve into the entertainment role in many things we do but I can't see myself going to that much effort to photograph kids at a party although there could be decent money in it for those that would.
But then again.... Most parents look at these things as 2 hours free babysitting. I can't imagine someone trying to flog pics when the parentsle come get the little spawns of satin doing too well at all really.

The idea has merit but honestly, I hate doing parties of any kind and just like I'm not interested in landscape or macro photography, there is no way I'm going to be clowning up for a bunch of kids either!

Nor me; but for someone who wants to focus on this type of business (bad pun intended), they are good suggestions. There isn't enough money on EARTH to get me doing kids parties. No. No way. Aaaghhhhh

Sam

The real point here was to simply get everyone to think about what other people charge for their services, and to see what clients are willing to pay for them. Then to perhaps re-look at your own pricing, and or provide reasoning to hold firm on a reasonable price as opposed to folding during any negotiations.

Look at what a wedding cake costs!! My God I could feed a family of four for a month or longer! Flowers, I could get the new 600 mm 1.2 IS L glass.

Look at what it costs for a tank of gas, cell phone, internet access, computer and software, (and the time to learn how to use it). A loaf of bread.

You get the idea........be realistic about you quality and expertise, don't over rate yourself, but absolutely don't under estimate your work and value.

Please note I am going through this evaluation myself, and passing along my thoughts.

One rout I am beginning to take when some one says I am too expensive is to say: While I may be perceived as more expensive you have viewed my work and the others work and only you can determine the quality, style, and cost for you. I will offer you a 100% money back guarantee. If you don't feel like you got your monies worth, I will keep the photos and return your money.

Sam

Glort

I can say in all honesty I do this all the time and find it quite effective on those clients that aren't just whingeing about price because any price is too much.

I have used examples for weddings many times. Having a reasonable knowledge of hire car prices i have compared the costs of wedding photography the couple have forever and can show friends and family to the costs of cars that are only around a couple of hours and then literally drive off into the sunset. Here that is worth $1-2000 easy.

I recall the story how for my wedding, I hired a couple of upmarket rental cars for $100 ea, had mates drive them for me and saved a fortune that went towards an extra week on the honey moon.
That one works nicely.

Another thing I used to use with weddings when I was reading the people were falling over on price and I couldn't crunch them, was to refer them to the cheapest, lousiest shooters around my area. Very often the people would have already heard of or seen the peoples work and the reminder of them put my charges in perspective.
If they hadn't seen them before, the justification of my price was a little more dramatic.


For event work, take away food works well. I have said to kids, " you know, If you agree to get your own healthy dinner at home tonight and give mum a rest and not annoy her to get McDonalds or pizza, She might put the money she saves on food towards buying you a photo?".

That one is a killer because it encourages the kids to eat healthy, save mum money and give her a hand at home. It make it real easy for her to say yes and a heck of a lot harder to say no.
Now I'm pretty sure most of them get the macca's on the way home anyway but all you have to do is give them a justification at the time to make the decision. The kids won't complain if they get the pic and the fast food as well.

The slam dunk sales pitch so far at an equine event was when a client came up to the trailer my mate had earlier seen buying hay off the feed guy and asked how much a mag cover was.
He had just been there having a chat with me but without missing a beat, he turned to her and said " It's only 3/4 of the price of that hay you bought and you get to take the photo home and keep to embarrass her with at her 21st, rather than rake it in a pile and leave it here after your horses have pooped on it. "
She bought 3 prints and a disk! Best sale of the weekend!

The examples I gave with the electrician and plumber are also popular examples I use.
Recently a mate put the good word in for me with an advertising job for one of his clients. He was asked if he knew what I charged and my mate quoted his hourly rate ( which he knew was above mine) plus ( unknown) expenses and image costs. The Client balked and my mate reminded him that was the same as he paid him and he had no problem with it and what I did would potentially bring him in many thousands of Dollars worth of work that he could well use at the time.

I went to see the client, billed him $180 for the first hour "callout"and got the gig.

There seems to be a thing on forums lately where photographers are advised to let clients know about the value of their equipment, the time they spend editing, the cost of their computer, insurance, rent...... and generally bore the crap out of people with a very poor argument.
Every business has overheads in investment but trying to cost in the value of the wear and tear on your show leather and imply the client owes you some sort of reimbursement for it isn't selling anyone.

You need to put your charges into perspective with other things that the people can relate to, especially if they are an impulse and not very planned purchase that they don't think about but spend the money anyway.

Snowgirl

Glort wrote: »

There seems to be a thing on forums lately where photographers are advised to let clients know about the value of their equipment, the time they spend editing, the cost of their computer, insurance, rent...... and generally bore the crap out of people with a very poor argument.
Every business has overheads in investment but trying to cost in the value of the wear and tear on your show leather and imply the client owes you some sort of reimbursement for it isn't selling anyone.

You need to put your charges into perspective with other things that the people can relate to, especially if they are an impulse and not very planned purchase that they don't think about but spend the money anyway.

I SO agree with this. No one cares about your 'cost of doing business' but they do care about the benefits THEY will receive by having you as their photographer.

I recently bid on a tourism job for a picturesque local town. They didn't balk at my day rate, but they did choke on the image rate (for commercial use). I have rebutted with a value statement something to the effect that the use of high quality images in their marketing materials will help to draw additional businesses to their town to set up, live there, pay both business and personal taxes, and help the town to grow into a self-sufficient place as opposed to a bedroom suburban community serviced by the nearest larger city. We shall see how it turns out.

I've also used the comment, for weddings, that when all is said and done - the food and booze have been consumed, the flowers wilted in the trash, the one tangible thing the happy couple will have left (except each other of course) is their photo collection. Relatively speaking - that makes it priceless, right?

Snowgirl

Oh - and the value of gear, time spent etc. is a useful thing to have in the back of your mind for calculating what you need to charge to be in business. But, the client doesn't need to know the details.

When you buy a vehicle, for example, do you ask how much the carburetor cost? Or the screws and bolts that hold it together? Or the labour to build it? Nah. Just what is the total price and why will I like this car vs. that one, right?