Very specific pricing questions

Davidoff

I finished a year of photography training this June, however, there were no business classes or anything of that sort. Meanwhile I've started sending out CV's and portfolios, replying to ads, etc.

Today I went to an interview for a freelancing job and I need some help with pricing my work. I'd ask one of my teachers, but it's useless as pricing is a bit of a secret among the local pro photographers.

Anyway, they need a photographer to shoot an entire clothing collection for their website. I take my own gear, shoot the items in their headquarters. Twice a year they'll have 500-1000 items to shoot as quickly as possible and throughout the year they will have some but not as many.

They need the clothes styled ( meaning, giving them volume and something that differentiates it from a spread out shirt in a flat surface, as no one would buy that ) and they need them ready for a transparent background, I'd have to cut them out in photoshop.

I need to give them a price with and without styling.

How would you go about this ? My initial idea was to set a minimum of items to shoot in a day ( maybe 30-40 ) and a price for each item. Meaning, a price for shooting it and photoshopping the background. Then maybe 20% for the stylist?

Another option is a fixed day rate. The problem with this is I'd have to set a minimum number of items to shoot in a day, as they won't pay for the day if I shoot half a dozen items obviously. In this case I'd have to add the photoshop price later. Well, I'm rambling.

Please keep in mind that even though this is a relatively large company and will need a lot of hours, it is also my first "real" assignment and I really want to get it as they would probably have more work for me down the road. I wouldn't mind not getting that much this time but build a relationship. Also, this is Portugal, small country and small market, so I can't ask the price you'd normally expect in the US or UK for example.
Thanks in advance, sorry about the long post.

Enlightphoto

I do consulting as part of my business for my specialties including pricing certain areas. This ain't one of my areas. As to what you're asking here, I have no clue. But if you fail to get an answer here, what I'd recommend is doing a search for Catalog photographer, and find a few whose client list & work impress you, and who are well out of your area. Give them a call and offer them $50 - $75 if they'd spend a half hour discussing pricing and estimating for this type of job. The big difference as I found, if you offer to pay for information, you'll get much more straight, info-packed answers, including the occasional secret, and they won't be so guarded with their info if they know you're located well outside of their marketplace.

As an example of how worthwhile this small investment could be, a fellow photog asked me for pricing advice on a stock sale. He was thinking of asking $1,500. After discussing this with him, he eventually made the sale for $10K. Missing one or two key considerations during your pricing could lead to you severely underpricing yourself, leaving lots of money on the table, and turn this into a "learning experience" because in the end you discover doing the job wasn't worth it.

Cheers & Good Luck.

Hope that helps

Sam

You are going to have to shoot a lot more than 30 or 40 a day. Think production line.

You will need more than one assistant or clothing styler.They really don't want images of clothing that haven't been styled. Think of a wrinkled t-shirt laying flat on a table. Very unappealing.

I would recommend finding a good, experienced, clothing styler, and get a quote from them for their work. Ask if they have or know of any assistants you could hire as well.

I would also ask the client what they liked about the last photographer, his or her work, and what they didn't like. Ask about their expectations and budget. Look at the images they are currently using. What is the intended end use? Web images are a lot easier than poster sized print images. The goal here is to identify what the client is looking for and if you can in fact deliver this.

Once you get your lighting and background set. (green screen, blue screen) taking the images won't be the hold up. Unpacking, ironing, steaming, and styling, and repacking the clothing will determine how many you can shoot in a day. I would look at one styler, and two assistants.

The budget is key..................say you need to pay a styler $350.00 a day and assistants at $100.00 a day that would be $550.00 per day plus what you need. Let's say you want $1200.00 per day. That's $1750.00 per day. You need to shoot fast and good! Don't forget you need to process each image, and may need to identify each image as to the clothing piece.

Sam

chrisjohnson

Gary has a great idea - pay someone out-of-state to give you some advice - and make sure you do not give them a clue who the client is.

This sounds like what I call a "bluebird" contract: several weeks guaranteed work annually which could pay the rent and utility bills.

To get the opportunity to bid as a "newbie" means they are doing some tyre kicking. You need to figure out why. This is core to their business and likely a major expense item. You might get the business when you can offer them a big saving over what they are currently paying and, maybe more important, when you can convince them that you can deliver - you need to know the right questions to ask. What do they expect from a new shooter? Price? Quality? Speed?

Maybe you get lucky and an experienced web catalogue photographer responds in this thread, but I would go out and look. You should certainly be prepared to pay for advice but maybe you find someone gives you advice for free.

I would check whether this is a solid company - a real bluebird. I would expect to bid low for a first assignment. They will probably tell you where your bid needs to be to have a chance and I would trade some margin for a guarantee of repeat business - so all their shooting for two years, automatically extended for six months with three months notice of intention to cancel and opportunity to remedy. Take a lesson from the construction industry - profit comes from the "extras", eg the downtime because the T-shirt is stuck in the warehouse, you have to wait for the right size, etc - they have obligations to organize an efficient scenario which they almost certain will not meet, and then your clock really starts ticking.

The difficulty is the broad frame they give - 500 to 1000 twice a year with some incidental shoots. I would construct my offer with a fixed price element (travel and set up), shooting per 80 items (what you could do optimistically in a stretched day), and pp per format. When you work with them long term you will save on your process time and your margin will increase. Don't forget the small print on the "extras".

The main advantage of a bluebird to you is reliable cash flow. So don't necessarily count your hours at some notional rate. Make sure you get a long term commitment and the breathing room to develop the rest of your business.

Don't be too disappointed if you don't get the gig. If I was them I would choose the reliable known vendor everytime - this is a core decision. Still, opportunity knocks! Good luck.

Davidoff

Thank you for taking the time to help.

Enlightphoto, because Portugal is such a small country and market ( regarding photography at least ) I don't even get any results when googling catalog photographer in portuguese. I guess the people who are doing this sort of work aren't advertising themselves as a catalog photographer. I think what you suggested is a good idea, I just can't find anyone to ask for advice.

Sam, good to get input from someone with experience in this sort of work. Because the website is new, they don't have previous relationships with photographers so I can't really ask that. They don't have expectactions except making the items " look good " and they don't have any photos as of now. With pricing, do you think it's a bad idea to sell them per photo delivered ? I was leaning towards this option because I really have no idea how many we can shoot in a day.

goldenballs, that's exactly why I want to make sure I get it
However, they don't have anyone doing this work now, and will only make an appointment for a test shoot after receiving prices from the candidates. They are a solid company but they didn't give me any references price wise, so I have no idea what they can or are willing to pay. Altough that is a good idea, it would only work if I had a per day price with no minimum items to shoot, because if I say it's this price per day, for 80 photos, and they can't provide the t-shirt in time, I'll just have to stay there longer waiting on it... How would you work out pricing ?

Nikolai

Regardless of where you are...

1. Get a solid estimate of workload in your head
2. Count in all the actual expenses (models, stylists, rented gear/space, hired help, etc.)
3. Figure in all the hours you will spend, both shooting and postprocessing (and trust me, with those volumes you want to get as much out of camera as you possibly can - postprocessing 1000 looks in a rush is a very, very bad idea). I would zero in my settings, lighting and framing and go with pretty much zero PP.
4. Get an hourly rate of a pro salary for your area. If you only have a an annual value, divide it by 2,000, e.g. $100K/yr would lead to $50/hr rate, maybe more if you dial in missing benefits, insurance, perks, etc.
5. Add your expenses to your (hours times rate). Here is your price.

chrisjohnson

I had not realized they are new to this too.

Nikolai's cost plus model is eminently sensible, but when all bidders do this then the guy with no track record and no relevant experience is likely to lose.

Perhaps the fact that they do not give you any indication of a price to beat reflects their inexperience.

I would guess in this business that the image quality is very important. After all, buying off the web, the image is a main trigger for the customer. I would try to determine how important quality is for them.

You will win their sympathy by asking questions because you are trying to serve their needs rather than offer an off-the-shelf formula. You could even offer a choice - rapid fire jpegs with a bevvy of assistants to ensure the next item arrives on time in front of your lens, OR a more artistic approach.

Thinking about this, I suspect their catalogue will be a mix of branded items for which modelled photostock is already available, and own brand which you have to shoot yourself. To really get engaged you could offer to sort this out for them while providing stylistic consistency to fit their site. Now you are doing a lot more than shooting photos on an assembly line.

Basically, the brief you have is wide open to interpretation. They would be a lot smarter to ask people what they would do for xxKEuro, rather than ask for quotes on the basis of this brief. Should they have no idea of a budget then your job is to up-sell the quality and personal attention to detail. Give them a choice and make them think.

Davidoff

I have to add some information. It is an established company and it's all their own brand. However, their marketing material and so on has been shot exclusively with models.
This is all new to them because they don't have shots of the products for the online store that will open soon.
The person who interviewed me was probably someone from hr and had no idea what she was doing. I could tell from what she said... for example " I want volume, but no mannequins "... she didn't mention resolution needs... and she had absolutely no reference points to give me regarding prices.
Anyway, that's who I'll have to deal with.

Nikolai, thanks for your opinions. After talking to stylists we decided it would probably be best to give them a budget based on an hourly rate after all.

goldenballs, like I said they are not a new brand, just new to this sort of work.
They don't want a model, they need the items shot on their own and then cut out in photoshop. I tried to get some information regarding iq from her, she had no idea what she wanted. This would probably be sorted in a test shoot she wants to do after receiving the prices.
I'll call them tomorrow to ask some more questions before submitting a budget.

Sam

"she had no idea what she wanted. This would probably be sorted in a test shoot she wants to do after receiving the prices."

You have got to be kidding!! You go with the above, and there is no way you will come out ahead.

No reputable business can quote on a job without knowing what the job involves!!

Talk to the HR person and explain you can't quote without knowing what they expect. To provide a price that is ether way to high or way to low isn't going to benefit you or them.

They have to have someone who is responsible for the project. You need to speak with them.

If you have to quote.................be VERY specific as to how you will shoot and what you will deliver. Cover everything, and quote high.

Sam

chrisjohnson

I have a similar opportunity this week - not photography but business consulting.

What I am doing is to split the assignment into two parts, the first part being to define essentially what needs to be done and how. In your case this could be a day or two shooting, showing different scenarios.

My client, like yours, has very little idea what needs to happen - and face it, if he did, he might not need me at all. At the end of phase one I will deliver the client a brief on what has to happen next, with some options. The risk for me is the client may take my brief and then shop around for someone else to do phase 2 but by then we will have a relationship going and they will feel comfortable that I will deliver and stay flexible.

The first phase is of course paid for. By the way, to get this far, I had to supply my standard contract and a standard day rate that I normally charge. This has made him comfortable enough to get started with me and does not overly constrain the end result as nothing is ever standard at the end of the day.

I hope this helps - I wish I had done the kind of assignment you are considering. Then I might be able to help better. Good luck!