Poll: 1Ds Mark IV saga

ThatCanonGuy

OK, let's go back in time. It's early 2010, and the 1D Mark IV has just been released. Everyone suspects either a July/August release date for the 1DsIV, or at the latest Photokina.

As we get closer to July, it looks like it's gonna be Photokina. No signs point to a July release.

Photokina nears. No good sources are speaking up. Then, soon before the show, a reliable source drops a bomb: No 1Ds IV at Photokina. We were stunned. 2011 or 2012 release date.

Fast forward to now. With the 5DII so popular, few people are shooting with 1DsIIIs. If Canon adds 7D-like AF to the 5DIII, and maybe another fps or 2, I think 99% of all 1Ds users would switch. Unless the 1Ds IV had something new.

There have been rumors that the 1Ds4 will have something that no Canon has ever had. Could be USB 3.0, could be in-body stabilization like the T3i will have, could be anything.

Let's pretend the 5DIII and 1Ds4 are out now. They're both 32.7 mp, and the 5DIII has AF almost as good as the 7D, 4fps, same body as mk2. The 1Ds4 has 1DIV AF, 5fps, weathersealing. Would you pay 5K more for the 1Ds4?

So a CR1[not a reliable source, but could be right] rumor showed up this week. It said: no 1Ds4. Instead, Canon would modify the 1Ds series to target medium format users. The 1Ds4 would be morphed down to a 5DIII.

Add to all this, I find it very interesting about Canon's recent replacement of the 300, 400, 500, & 600 superteles. Who uses these? Sports, wildlife. Who uses the 1Ds3? Studio. The old superteles were already so good. Maybe they were increasing their resolving power to handle 40+ mp? Do you see what I'm getting at? The superteles were released a bit before the 1Ds4(if it will be released), so maybe the 1DsIV will have a use for them? Maybe it'll be a sports & studio cam, FF, 32mp, 10fps, 1D AF?

So there are 3 options: No 1DsIV, but a new MF-targeted cam. Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3, very unlikely. Radical 1Ds4, shooting everything. And of course, if there's another option, discuss it here. Please vote and state your opinion!

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

Bump. Not that I could afford one ;~).

borrowlenses.com

They would have to make the 1D Mark IV clearly superior in every way to the 5D MKIII, and that just might be possible. Plus I'm sure Canon will sell a lot more 5Ds than 1Ds bodies, so it makes sense for them to downsize so speak. Or make the 1DS Mark IV mind blowing.

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

They would have to make the 1D Mark IV clearly superior in every way to the 5D MKIII, and that just might be possible. Plus I'm sure Canon will sell a lot more 5Ds than 1Ds bodies, so it makes sense for them to downsize so speak. Or make the 1DS Mark IV mind blowing.

Yes, because currently the 5D2 is outselling the 1Ds3 by far. Since the 5Ds sell so well, they may just abolish the 1Ds series.

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

richy wrote: »

I could be very wrong, but I don't see the 5d3 getting 7d style AF. Having said that, if they do you are on the money, the 1ds4 would have to be very special and canon (or nikon) both have it in their power to deliver something very special. 4k video, in body IS, 35-40mp, high DR 14-18 stop, 8 fps, 3d etc.

I think the new teles were a cost benefit thing, they cost little to revamp versus a new lens and they will bring in some moolah. Plus to accommodate newer cameras as mentioned Maybe even for a switch to that mythical square sensor

You may be right about the 5D3 AF. If Canon makes a 1ds4, I doubt they would do a video breakthrough like 4k. I have heard that the square bodies aren't as good for videography as ones without the portrait grip. Maybe I'm wrong. That is a good theory about the superteles, everyone wants to upgrade their old ones ;~)

Nikolai

Other (explain)

This is an interesting question. I don't have an opinion since I don't have any insights in the Canon HQ. All I know is that in my line of shooting - mostly studio portraiture with occasional events and landscaping - 5D and 7D line makes my life nearly perfect.
What I'm lusting for is a studio optimized camera (not in a way "7D Studio" was tweaked):
reliable and super fast wireless connection and triggering, large (at least 4"x6") articulating display with a highly responsive Live View; controls and hookups rearranged.
And maybe something revolutionary like rotating the sensor inside the body from portrait to landscape, and not necesseraly mechanically - it can be a larger square sensor, but only certain portion of it would be used. Which, btw, could lead to an in-camera ratio setting: from pano to 2:3 to 1:1 to 3:2 to vertical pano)... This way your camera remains in the same position, so do your controls, and ratio/orientation is done electronically...
Boy, I would be all over THAT thing...

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

Nik, um, that would be great, but you're supposed to vote what you think the 1ds4 will be, not what you want it to be... whatever... ;~)

Nikolai

Other (explain)

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

Nik, um, that would be great, but you're supposed to vote what you think the 1ds4 will be, not what you want it to be... whatever... ;~)

I voted: other. And explained :-)

JimKarczewski

A radical camera, shooting at high fps

richy wrote: »

I could be very wrong, but I don't see the 5d3 getting 7d style AF. Having said that, if they do you are on the money, the 1ds4 would have to be very special and canon (or nikon) both have it in their power to deliver something very special. 4k video, in body IS, 35-40mp, high DR 14-18 stop, 8 fps, 3d etc.

I think the new teles were a cost benefit thing, they cost little to revamp versus a new lens and they will bring in some moolah. Plus to accommodate newer cameras as mentioned Maybe even for a switch to that mythical square sensor

Doubt you will EVER see canon do in body IS with their Pro/Prosumer line. They've already said it's useless to make a body like that (ala Sony) because the IS is so fundamentally different based on the type of lens you have attached. A 50mm is going to need a different amount of IS than a 500 and that type of large movement is just not possible in body...

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

True, but they said after the T2i came out that IS would be present on the T3i. But yes, I doubt they would put it on anything higher than a Rebel. Besides, the IS lenses are a huge moneymaker for Canon.

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

No, we're talking about what we WILL see ;~). But Canon did make an announcement that the next Rebel would have in-body IS. A reason to upgrade from your old Reb, and an excuse to drive the price up. What's not to love, Canon?

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

Canon is in a very difficult situation right now. Basically, their marketing and sales departments have shot Canon in the foot over the past 5 years.

If they don't put better AF in the 5D mk3, it's game over for (almost) EVERY full-frame Canon shooter who is on a budget, but doesn't care about video or megapixels. The D700, let alone it's successor, is just too damn perfect of a camera.

So Canon will be blowing their foot clean off if they cripple the 5-series for a *third* generation. Fortunately, I don't think they'll do that. They'll most likely put 7D AF in the 5D mk3, and it will be a great camera and I'll be happy for my friends who shoot Canon.

But this goes against everything their (up)sales department has believed in for the past decade or two. At every turn, Canon has tactfully encouraged users to upgrade to the most expensive camera / lens possible. For example, no 85mm 1.4, just a decent 1.8 and an over-priced 1.2. And no honest effort at a good 50mm 1.4 either, just a half-hearted attempt at 1.4 and an over-priced 1.2... The list could go for quite a while, but you get my point.

So, it's going to be like pulling teeth for Canon, but the change MUST (and will) come...

But, this thread is about the 1Ds mk4. What will it be? And how could it be a success even with a very decent 5D mk3? Quite simply: the 1-series is better in oh-so-many ways, not JUST autofocus.

* The 45-point AF is still much better than the 7-series AF. For one thing, it links spot metering to each point, which I find VERY valuable...

* The 5-series might not get dual card slots.

* The 5-series, even though the FPS match, will ALWAYS be an advanced-amateur body when it comes to the other performance specs such as shutter lag, mirror blackout, etc. The 1-series Canons are just SNAPPY.

* The 1-series will always have superior sealing and rugged design. It will always have a higher shutter life rating, it will always have more professional control layouts etc.


...I'm bored of thinking about this now, so I'll end there. But the bottom line is that in my opinion, the internet (and places like this) are mostly made up of advanced amateurs, and therefore we kinda mis-represent the target market for an $8K camera. We can all sit around and talk about how "nobody" would buy an $8K camera if a $3K camera had equal image quality and autofocus that was almost as good, but in reality we're just disconnected from all the studios, war photojournalists, National Geographic shooters, filthy-rich wedding shooters, etc. etc. who are all going to always buy $8K camera bodies, either just because they can, or because they truly require that extra bit of performance.

Yes, Canon will forfeit quite a few 1Ds-series sales by dramatically improving their 5-series. But I'm betting that the sheer volume of increased 5-series sales will more than make up the difference.

Oh, and my bet for the 1Ds mk4 is on ~30-40 megapixels, 6 FPS, half-decent ISO 6400, and almost nothing else new.

=Matt=

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

Good point about the 5D3 sales making up for lost 1ds4 sales. But the few rich people you named just aren't enuf sales to make a 1ds4 I think. It costs a lot to make a 1-series, esp. FF, and I just don't think there's enuf profit in it for Canon. I don't think they'll get enuf sales to make one. Now, if they made a FF super-duper 1ds4 that rivaled MF quality, I think there'd be plenty of people who would go for that, considering the success of the Pent 645D. Remember that rumor that Canon wanted to buy Pentax ;~)? I think such a camera would outsell the 645d just because of the brand name and mount. True, there are better MF lenses than some L's, but I think a lot of the higher-end L's are good enuf to get sales for that MF-targeted 1ds4. But you could be right, except it's gonna be 5fps, not 6 ;~)

ziggy53

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

... Canon did make an announcement that the next Rebel would have in-body IS. ...

Do you have a link to that announcement?

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

Good point about the 5D3 sales making up for lost 1ds4 sales. But the few rich people you named just aren't enuf sales to make a 1ds4 I think. It costs a lot to make a 1-series, esp. FF, and I just don't think there's enuf profit in it for Canon. I don't think they'll get enuf sales to make one. Now, if they made a FF super-duper 1ds4 that rivaled MF quality, I think there'd be plenty of people who would go for that, considering the success of the Pent 645D. Remember that rumor that Canon wanted to buy Pentax ;~)? I think such a camera would outsell the 645d just because of the brand name and mount. True, there are better MF lenses than some L's, but I think a lot of the higher-end L's are good enuf to get sales for that MF-targeted 1ds4. But you could be right, except it's gonna be 5fps, not 6 ;~)

That is where, indeed I think "we" (prosumers, 99.9%) ...just don't know the market as well as we think we do. There are probably a LOT more 1-series users out there than we think there are, let alone MF users who would love to reap the benefits of the EOS mount. Our own prosumer minds are just too price-oriented to fathom the notion that many people just buy the 1-series bodies, period. They might buy a 5-series for backup, but they'll always FEEL the difference.

To prove that an $8K camera body will still sell, just have a look at Nikon's business model. One year after they made the D3, they made the D700 despite everyone saying that it would cannibalize D3 sales. Then they came out with the D3X and the D3S, both which have STILL sold very well even while costing thousands more. Nikon still presses forward, now we have a mythical D800 on the horizon, with 24 megapixels maybe. Admittedly, Nikon has been MUCH more tactful with their market placement than Canon has, and their release cycles definitely entice more high-end pros to buy a flagship camera. But it shouldn't be too hard for Canon to tweak their release habits just a few months, or a year...

Nikon didn't eve JOIN the ranks of $8K camera makers until just a couple years ago, when the economy was plummeting, and the camera still sold reasonably well. Sure, it didn't fly off the shelves, but they still had reason enough to make the camera and charge $8K for it.

Canon at least has a reputation for making $8K cameras, and a class of high-end professionals who have been buying them for years. Plus, like we discussed, the world of MF that would love to indulge in the EOS mount...

=Matt=

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

Searching for that announcement, I'm not gonna give up, I know I saw it...

Yes there's a market, but are people gonna pay 5K more for somewhat better AF, better build, higher quality... I know some will, but are those people enough to convince Canon to release a 1ds4... I don't know...

ziggy53

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

Searching for that announcement, I'm not gonna give up, I know I saw it...

...

I did a search of both the Internet at large and specifically at Canon and could not find any announcement of in-body/chip-based IS from Canon relating to any Canon dSLR, Rebel or otherwise. They have said, in the last 4 years, that they would not rule out in-body/chip-based stabilization for dSLRs and there have been some recent patents linked to Canon that would indicate they have the technology.

Link to a discussion of one of the Canon patents:

http://www.photographybay.com/2010/01/25/canon-patent-application-shows-sensor-based-image-stabilization/

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

Searching for that announcement, I'm not gonna give up, I know I saw it...

Yes there's a market, but are people gonna pay 5K more for somewhat better AF, better build, higher quality... I know some will, but are those people enough to convince Canon to release a 1ds4... I don't know...

It is definitely arbitrary, grey, and NOT for us prosumers to make an "educated guess", that's for sure! However I believe that there absolutely are enough buyers out there... Filthy rich hobbyists who just love to buy the best. Filthy rich pros who think they "NEED" to buy the best. And of course, hard-working pros who really *DO* need the best. And, as we mentioned, the medium format crowd who set their standards at ~30-40 megapixels LONG ago, but would love to get their hands on the more versatile EOS system...

Now in the spirit of disclosure, I STRONGLY believed the exact opposite, just a few years ago before the D3X came out. I thought that with Nikon's amazing flagship D3, and Canon's 1D mk3&4, ...how could $8K cameras possibly live on? Surely with the economy heading south, Nikon wouldn't dare charge more than $6K for the D3X when it came out? Surely, Canon had obliterated its' 1Ds-series sales with the 5D mk2 and inevitably much-improved 5D mk3? I thought for sure that Nikon's D3 and D3X lineup, for $5-6K, would finally topple Canon's ridiculous $8K price tag crown. But that just didn't happen, and I think the $8K price tag is here to stay. If ANYTHING, Canon and Nikon might step down to $7K or something, but I doubt it. They drop the camera price to $7K after 1-2 years anyways, and even less after that, so all they're doing at $8K is making a few extra bucks off the early adopters. They'll still sell plenty of cameras later when the price comes down...

=Matt=

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

ziggy53 wrote: »

I did a search of both the Internet at large and specifically at Canon and could not find any announcement of in-body/chip-based IS from Canon relating to any Canon dSLR, Rebel or otherwise. They have said, in the last 4 years, that they would not rule out in-body/chip-based stabilization for dSLRs and there have been some recent patents linked to Canon that would indicate they have the technology.

Link to a discussion of one of the Canon patents:

http://www.photographybay.com/2010/01/25/canon-patent-application-shows-sensor-based-image-stabilization/

I looked a lot too... I think it was on the-digital-picture.com but I can't find anything there... I googled "next canon rebel announcement in-body is" and a buch of variations and all I got was speculations. I looked at Canon's website, a list of their press releases, but not very helpful. Maybe I'm wrong, I really thought I saw it...

It is definitely arbitrary, grey, and NOT for us prosumers to make an "educated guess", that's for sure! However I believe that there absolutely are enough buyers out there... Filthy rich hobbyists who just love to buy the best. Filthy rich pros who think they "NEED" to buy the best. And of course, hard-working pros who really *DO* need the best. And, as we mentioned, the medium format crowd who set their standards at ~30-40 megapixels LONG ago, but would love to get their hands on the more versatile EOS system...

Now in the spirit of disclosure, I STRONGLY believed the exact opposite, just a few years ago before the D3X came out. I thought that with Nikon's amazing flagship D3, and Canon's 1D mk3&4, ...how could $8K cameras possibly live on? Surely with the economy heading south, Nikon wouldn't dare charge more than $6K for the D3X when it came out? Surely, Canon had obliterated its' 1Ds-series sales with the 5D mk2 and inevitably much-improved 5D mk3? I thought for sure that Nikon's D3 and D3X lineup, for $5-6K, would finally topple Canon's ridiculous $8K price tag crown. But that just didn't happen, and I think the $8K price tag is here to stay. If ANYTHING, Canon and Nikon might step down to $7K or something, but I doubt it. They drop the camera price to $7K after 1-2 years anyways, and even less after that, so all they're doing at $8K is making a few extra bucks off the early adopters. They'll still sell plenty of cameras later when the price comes down...

=Matt=

Maybe there are enuf... I think a direct 1ds3 upgradeand a MF-targeted camera would be different... the MF one would be like 10K maybe, with all resources towards IQ, more than AF or build. The 1ds3 upgrade would just be a 1ds3 with 30-40 mp and d!gic 5.

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

I don't know, I just can't see the 1Ds series going on like it is, esp. if they put 7D AF in the 5D3. Maybe so though, there are people who would buy a 1Ds3 replacement.

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

I don't know, I just can't see the 1Ds series going on like it is, esp. if they put 7D AF in the 5D3. Maybe so though, there are people who would buy a 1Ds3 replacement.

Just look at Nikon. Since day one, they have made affordable semi-pro cameras with near-pro AF, rugged construction, speed, etc. etc. ...and they have always had wild success with all of their lineups, especially since they added FX... I promise, 5D mk3 sales will NOT change Canon's taste for $8K camera bodies!

But, we'll know for sure in 6-12 months...

=Matt=

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

OK, let's see what others think. If you're reading this, PLEASE VOTE! Tell us what you think! ;~)

studio1972

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Now in the spirit of disclosure, I STRONGLY believed the exact opposite, just a few years ago before the D3X came out. I thought that with Nikon's amazing flagship D3, and Canon's 1D mk3&4, ...how could $8K cameras possibly live on? Surely with the economy heading south, Nikon wouldn't dare charge more than $6K for the D3X when it came out? Surely, Canon had obliterated its' 1Ds-series sales with the 5D mk2 and inevitably much-improved 5D mk3? I thought for sure that Nikon's D3 and D3X lineup, for $5-6K, would finally topple Canon's ridiculous $8K price tag crown. But that just didn't happen, and I think the $8K price tag is here to stay. If ANYTHING, Canon and Nikon might step down to $7K or something, but I doubt it. They drop the camera price to $7K after 1-2 years anyways, and even less after that, so all they're doing at $8K is making a few extra bucks off the early adopters. They'll still sell plenty of cameras later when the price comes down...

=Matt=

I would like to point out that AFAIK Canon make their cameras outside of the USA so I would imagine the price is fixed in Yen and then converted into other currencies. Western currencies have been weak in recent times so this will keep the price high, even if the japanese price falls.

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

studio1972 wrote: »

I would like to point out that AFAIK Canon make their cameras outside of the USA so I would imagine the price is fixed in Yen and then converted into other currencies. Western currencies have been weak in recent times so this will keep the price high, even if the japanese price falls.

...Which is the same reason that many of Nikon's high-end lenses went UP in USD by quite a bit over the past few years. :-(

=Matt=

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

How much was the 1ds3 when it came out? It's like 6K new now, and 3.5K used.

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

ThatCanonGuy wrote: »

How much was the 1ds3 when it came out? It's like 6K new now, and 3.5K used.

Each new Canon 1Ds series was exactly $7999 when it first hit the shelves, then over the subsequent ~2 years the price goes down 1-2K new, and 3+K used. Pretty much like clockwork.

Which is one reason why I think there is "hope" for Canon users who are sick and tired of the 5-series autofocus. Even if Canon decides to leave the 5D mk3 crippled, a used 1Ds mk3 will probably be the same price by then! I can already tell you already, there is no feature the 5D mk3 could possibly add to the 5-series that would entice me to buy it instead of a used 1Ds mk3. Who's with me on this?


=Matt=

ziggy53

The Canon 5D MKII is not "crippled" in the AF section. The camera is not designed for rapid action/sports but it is designed for weddings & events, landscape, studio, portraiture, etc. I do recommend that for low-light work the 5D MKII works best with an AF assist light of some sort.

The 1D/1Ds series simply have the best AF of the current Canon lineup.

As to which is better; Canon or Nikon? If you shoot Nikon, Nikon is better. If you shoot Canon, Canon is better. It's just that simple. Both manufacturers have extremely competent offerings.

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

richy wrote: »

I get what your sayinng, the 1ds3 looks pretty sweet , but a 5d3, if they add 3 stops of dr and drop 1 stop of noise Id take one. The af isnt bad, it just doesnt cover much area and you have to be careful with the 'outer' points. People just dont get that it isn't a generalised camera like the d700, they just compare them because theyre both ff and a similar price. There are many ways the d700 is superior, but the 5d2 is also superior in some ways. Horses for courses as they say!
I looked at a 1ds3 but the 5d2 has a nicer screen, the same sensor and I dont miss the af, plus I got a 300 2.8 with some of the money saved. Works for me but for others the 1ds3 is a better choice.
I just wish canon would release a body and lens roadmap so i could budget for purchases.

I can see how THAT much improvement in sensor technology would be totally worth it to certain photographers who don't need the AF. Even though I shoot portraits and events for my job, my hobby is landscape photography so trust me I'd buy a 5D mk3 in a second if I were doing that full-time, or if photography was ONLY a hobby. I doubt the improvement will be that great however; it is going to take a quantum leap in sensor technology to be able to withstand a *reduction* in pixel size, yet dramatically increase DR and ISO performance. I'd be surprised if they can get to just 1 stop of each, depending on how many megapixels they try to cram in...


=Matt=

Matthew Saville

A Regular upgrade to the 1Ds3

ziggy53 wrote: »

The Canon 5D MKII is not "crippled" in the AF section. The camera is not designed for rapid action/sports but it is designed for weddings & events, landscape, studio, portraiture, etc. I do recommend that for low-light work the 5D MKII works best with an AF assist light of some sort.

The 1D/1Ds series simply have the best AF of the current Canon lineup.

As to which is better; Canon or Nikon? If you shoot Nikon, Nikon is better. If you shoot Canon, Canon is better. It's just that simple. Both manufacturers have extremely competent offerings.

Indeed "crippled" is a bit harsh, in fact I've shot weddings with the 5D mk2 and I can make the camera perform "just fine" with the proper technique, even with a sluggish f/1.2 lens in very dim light.

HOWEVER, I feel that if we don't use that term often enough, Canon will continue to short-change it's loyal users. That is why I'm quick to call it "crippled"- I hope people get the message across to Canon; that a 9-point AF 5D mk3 is un-acceptable.

I do know MANY Canon photographers for whom Canon (in the form of the 5-series) simply was NOT better. I know that many photographers do NOT need such a well-rounded camera, but for those who do, the D700 is by far the best choice.

I guess I'm just spoiled; when I consider the fact that Canon may NEVER put it's 1-series 45-point AF into a body that debuts at less than $4500, I feel like Canon users are being cheated by a sales & marketing department, plain and simple. The crazy part is that Canon users try and justify those marketing decisions, by telling themselves that the 9-point AF is "good enough for most work", or that putting 1-series AF in a $2,995 body would cannibalize flagship sales. Those weren't good enough excuses for Nikon's engineers!

But, that's a much more philosophical debate that has less to do with this original topic... Hopefully I didn't open a can of worms. All I wanted to say was that Canon is much more sneaky with it's market placement, they have perfected the art of encouraging users to upgrade. That's all I'm saying...

=Matt=

studio1972

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Indeed "crippled" is a bit harsh, in fact I've shot weddings with the 5D mk2 and I can make the camera perform "just fine" with the proper technique, even with a sluggish f/1.2 lens in very dim light.

HOWEVER, I feel that if we don't use that term often enough, Canon will continue to short-change it's loyal users. That is why I'm quick to call it "crippled"- I hope people get the message across to Canon; that a 9-point AF 5D mk3 is un-acceptable.

I do know MANY Canon photographers for whom Canon (in the form of the 5-series) simply was NOT better. I know that many photographers do NOT need such a well-rounded camera, but for those who do, the D700 is by far the best choice.

I guess I'm just spoiled; when I consider the fact that Canon may NEVER put it's 1-series 45-point AF into a body that debuts at less than $4500, I feel like Canon users are being cheated by a sales & marketing department, plain and simple. The crazy part is that Canon users try and justify those marketing decisions, by telling themselves that the 9-point AF is "good enough for most work", or that putting 1-series AF in a $2,995 body would cannibalize flagship sales. Those weren't good enough excuses for Nikon's engineers!

But, that's a much more philosophical debate that has less to do with this original topic... Hopefully I didn't open a can of worms. All I wanted to say was that Canon is much more sneaky with it's market placement, they have perfected the art of encouraging users to upgrade. That's all I'm saying...

=Matt=

Isn't Nikon the company that doesn't unlock the full functionality of the camera unless you buy the grip as well? Isn't that just a way of getting people to spend a bit more money? You seem to have the attitude that Canon = Bad and Nikon = Good in virtually every post you ever make. Is there anything about Canon you actually like? You seem to use their cameras quite often so I guess you can't think they are all bad?

Looking back through all my in focus 5D MkII images I really don't seem to be struggling with the AF system, and I don't consider myself to be some kind of photographic genius.

Most wedding photographers I see only use the centre point 99.9% of the time anyhow. What is it that you are using all those other points for? At least with only 9 points it is easy to select the one you need if you have to.

ThatCanonGuy

There will be no 1DsIV, just a MF-targeted camera

I'm with matt, Canon has perfected the art of getting users to upgrade. The 5D2 and D700 are different, and they're for different people. But if a Canon photographer wants a D700-type body, he's got no options...(well, he's got ONE option... are you listening, Canon ;~) and same with Nikon if a Nikonian wants a super-hi-res body (not talking D3s ;~). If they put 1D-AF AND 8-10fps in a 5D3, like 24mp, then that would just cannibalize 1D sales, Nikon sales, camera sales... you name it. I think if they did THAT then that would put them way ahead of Nikon. That would probably really hurt D4 sales... unless Nikon has another D3 bomb in their bag... I don't see them doing that again, the D3s in really pushing the physical limits of technology. They could do that with the 1Ds series... merge it with the 1D and get enough sales with that, let alone the 5-series... just dreaming...