Copyright Law

mpriest13

Ok..can someone please clear this up for me.

This is a hypothetical question.... ( I promise )

If I do, say family pictures for some people (without a contract) can I use the photos on my website for promotional purposes without their permission.

Can they forbid the use of those photos on a website or blog?

What is the actual LAW in this type of situation?

chrisjohnson

The laws you need to worry about are the privacy laws, which vary considerably from country to country and state to state.

The rights of a photographer to shoot in public spaces without consent have been upheld for a long time - hence the paparazzi trade. However, in 2009 California passed a state law preventing unauthorized photos of celebrities being taken in public while on personal or family business. For ordinary people the law revolves around a notion of "reasonable expectation of privacy" which can keep a team of lawyers busy but which is broadly interpreted that you can expect privacy while on private property - so if you took pictures of the people in their own home or backyard without permission you are on the legal dark side.

In your example, I would consult my conscience and act ethically, without wondering about winning in court. There are plenty of people who are willing to give permission to use their pictures on a web site without offending those who are offended, whatever their legal rights.

chrisjohnson

Afterthought: taking photos of family implies taking photos of children. You might like to consider "legally" that publishing photos of children is nowadays a completely different ball game, even when you think you have consent. In UK recently Data Protection laws were used/misused to prevent publication of children's photos despite them having been taken in a public space. I don't think the case ever completed its long journey through the courts because everybody involved thought that the people who brought the case - not the parents - had a point. At least nobody was prepared to stump up the cash to promote photographers' rights versus an anti-pedofile lobby, a despite the fact that sites like Facebook are littered with pictures of children.

Angelo

this topic has bee addressed many times before.

May I suggest you use the search feature to find related posts that may help you. You can also consult the sticky thread: "Photographer's Resources" where you'll find lots of info on copyright, marketing, releases, etc.



.

orljustin

mpriest13 wrote: »

If I do, say family pictures for some people (without a contract) can I use the photos on my website for promotional purposes without their permission.

Can they forbid the use of those photos on a website or blog?

Why would you do anything without a contract specifying what rights each party has?

And no. In most cases you cannot use the images to promote yourself (commercial use) without a release from the party in question.

"forbid"... Sure they can tell you they don't want to be used for your promotional usage.

Next time, get a contact that releases promotional usage rights. Hypothetically, of course.

Blaker

mpriest13 wrote: »

Ok..can someone please clear this up for me.

This is a hypothetical question.... ( I promise )

If I do, say family pictures for some people (without a contract) can I use the photos on my website for promotional purposes without their permission.

Can they forbid the use of those photos on a website or blog?

What is the actual LAW in this type of situation?

Never mind the law, why would you want to piss off a customer by using photos they have 'forbidden' you to use, thereby losing any return business by them, and losing very valuable word of mouth... or even worse, generating some very bad word of mouth?
Doesn't make sense .

mpriest13

Blaker wrote: »

Never mind the law, why would you want to @#!*% off a customer by using photos they have 'forbidden' you to use, thereby losing any return business by them, and losing very valuable word of mouth... or even worse, generating some very bad word of mouth?
Doesn't make sense .

Ok ok...I worded the original post poorly. This is a hypothetical situation I posted to find out if I really do need permission to use pictures I take in my website for promotional purposes.

The reason I ask is I am sick and tired of people asking me to take pictures with the promise that "they will allow me" to use the pics for my portfolio. I have a model release in my contract and never work without a contract but people are starting to use that part of the contract as a bargaining point. I had a friend actually have a client say they wanted the price to be cheaper if they were going to allow him to use the photos on his website otherwise the price was fair. That the portfolio should be worth something and if they were going to allow it they should get a discount.

Anyway, everything I read seems to be that you don't necessarily need a model release for your portfolio. I wonder if anyone knows FOR SURE!


Thanks!

r3t1awr3yd

You're asking if anyone knows for sure but Angelo already posted your answer above. The CORRECT by LAW answer. You just need to READ and DO something instead of waiting for the answer to come to you magically...

If I were YOU, I'd follow the rule about facial recognition... C.Y.A.

Art Scott

I would not use the image of anyone that really protests for any reason......i do not use images of people that have an attitude i dislike....because the images might be stellar to all that view them but I will not be able to talk about how fun the client was to work with......I will forever feel the negative attitude and it will ring out in my voice....and it really has nothing to do with copyright...as you do own the copyright of any image you create...it is YOUR copyright and that is why they are NOT supposed to take that image to walgreens or any other place to have it COPIED in any fashion....unless YOU release the copyright to them..............

Start using a contract and in very tactful terms just change whatever your current model release says to something like by hiring me you are also agreeing to my use of you image for self promotion..blah...blah......blah and if they disagree for any reason....add 20% for removing the model release clause......and explain that the other price was a discounted price already.

Edit: also if you do not sign your images start doing so...not with a © statement but your signature...do it in photoshop or what ever your processor is and do so that it will not be hidden by mats or whatever......Olin Mills has done this for over a century...in the film days...gold imprints of your signature were used....now it can be done with the photo processing software.

JimKarczewski

http://www.nyip.com/ezine/techtips/model-release.html

mpriest13

r3t1awr3yd wrote: »

You're asking if anyone knows for sure but Angelo already posted your answer above. The CORRECT by LAW answer. You just need to READ and DO something instead of waiting for the answer to come to you magically...

If I were YOU, I'd follow the rule about facial recognition... C.Y.A.

Thanks for you input. That really helped. Actually I read the links Angelo provided before my post and if anything all they say is ..."it depends". Unless I missed it somewhere they say in this situation or that situation but never the exact situation I am asking about. Nearly every thread I read on these forums turned into a debate and did not give concrete answers. I am sorry if my question annoyed you...

r3t1awr3yd

mpriest13 wrote: »

Thanks for you input. That really helped. Actually I read the links Angelo provided before my post and if anything all they say is ..."it depends". Unless I missed it somewhere they say in this situation or that situation but never the exact situation I am asking about. Nearly every thread I read on these forums turned into a debate and did not give concrete answers. I am sorry if my question annoyed you...

:tough:snore

SJP

mpriest13, this is a very good question! And Art Scott, great answer! I did have a situation when starting out where I did pictures as a favor for a friend. This friend did not pay for pictures and I did not sign over a copy release form, I had JUST started getting into doing photography for other people other than my own family. Our friendship ended and because of that this friend in turn told me I was not to use "her" pictures. I had alway questioned if I was, by law, protected to post MY pictures that I took on MY personal page and photography that I have done! Art Scott, it's so true, you will have that feeling behind the pics. No matter how good those pictures were! You will have better pictures because you will have a better memory behind the pictures! I don't know why people would respond to this post so negatively and immaturely! Not everyone knows EVERYTHING about photography and business when they start out! Thanks mpriest13 for asking and thanks art scott for such a great answer!

sara505

Art, great idea Re signing prints.

Photog4Christ

mpriest13 wrote: »

Thanks for you input. That really helped. Actually I read the links Angelo provided before my post and if anything all they say is ..."it depends". Unless I missed it somewhere they say in this situation or that situation but never the exact situation I am asking about. Nearly every thread I read on these forums turned into a debate and did not give concrete answers. I am sorry if my question annoyed you...

You asked "... what is the actual LAW...." Have you considered asking legal council instead of a "room" full of photographers?

The best course of action is to ** ALWAYS ** have a model release for *** EVERY *** shoot whether you need it or not. That way, as Wally said "... C. Y. A."

BTW.... This has absolutely nothing to do with copyrights. Just sayin'

Art Scott

SJP wrote: »

mpriest13, this is a very good question! And Art Scott, great answer! I did have a situation when starting out where I did pictures as a favor for a friend. This friend did not pay for pictures and I did not sign over a copy release form, I had JUST started getting into doing photography for other people other than my own family. Our friendship ended and because of that this friend in turn told me I was not to use "her" pictures. I had alway questioned if I was, by law, protected to post MY pictures that I took on MY personal page and photography that I have done! Art Scott, it's so true, you will have that feeling behind the pics. No matter how good those pictures were! You will have better pictures because you will have a better memory behind the pictures! I don't know why people would respond to this post so negatively and immaturely! Not everyone knows EVERYTHING about photography and business when they start out! Thanks mpriest13 for asking and thanks art scott for such a great answer!

Thank you Mpriest13 for the kind words.......

i do my best to give helpful answers without holding judgment of the question, as i was once told the only stupid question is the question not asked.........and finding your answer by searching this forum is almost a trial in and by futility..........99.9% of my answers like the one above are from trial by fire.......in other words my own experience........

sara505 wrote: »

Art, great idea Re signing prints.

Thank you Sara.......I have signatures set as vertical actions and also horizontal actions.....then I move and place where I want before flattening the layer.....if I am doing all 4x5 aspect ratio image files I just separate the V's from the H's and use the action that applies and flattens and then saves the images to spped up the process......

chrisjohnson

The question opens a large number of possibilities. Legal opinions depend on what you are prepared to pay.

All sorts of laws come into play:
- copyright
- privacy
- trademark
- trespass
- civil rights, etc
- local laws (eg in California)
- to name but a few ......

Basically you are best advised to get permission to use images of people when you want to use them commercially.

Most places people have a civil right to use images of themselves for themselves. So, no, you cannot use an image of someone else without their permission, even when you think you have copyright. Some photographers excuse themselves on artistic grounds but they will lose the case to someone with deep pockets for lawyers. How many unauthorized pictures of Prince William are doing the rounds?

Of course most people do not care or cannot afford to enforce their legal rights but this does not mean you are legally in the right.