Real B&W from digital, is this possible?
Bianco
Registered Users Posts: 7 Beginner grinner
I came across this company online and they advertise "real silver gelatin b&W prints from digital files." The lab is called Digital Silver Imaging. (www.digitalsilverimaging.com/) Is this even possible without an internegative?
Has anyone ever used this lab? If yes, how are the prints?
Has anyone ever used this lab? If yes, how are the prints?
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Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
As Andrew has alluded, you will get different answers from different folks. There are those who feel, fervently, that silver gelatin prints are inherently "better", higher "quality", more desirable, without ever carefully defining what they mean with those terms.
There are artists and galleries, who strongly suggest that silver gelatin prints are much more valuable, and much more desirable by collectors than "run of the mill" ink jet prints. Yet there are highly knowledgeable, highly respected photographers who do not agree with those opinions. Like Andrew Rodney in the previous post.
This link gives you a hint of the differing opinions about high quality inkjet versus silver images
Unless you compare them directly, side by side, under the same lighting conditions, you might not tell one from another. As Andrew said, the tonal range, and Dmax, of modern high quality inkjet prints is clearly superior, but some silver prints are preferred by SOME viewers. Once mounted behind glass in a frame, will you be able to tell them apart? I think most folks today think that modern inkjet prints with archival paper and ink, will match the longevity of most silver prints. Either will likely survive far longer than you or I.
One of the things I learned from Marc Muench, is make your own darned test prints, and compare them, and decide for yourself. Promises and Soft proofing are fine, but test prints are far better. We all did that years ago in the dark in darkrooms. It is even easier today in the digital darkroom. It is still good advice.
Why not make your own high quality inkjet print, and purchase a silver print from this lab from the same digital file, and compare them yourself?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
With all due respect, I have an epson 3800 that makes beautiful color prints but the black & white doesn't look the same, and it still is ink on the surface of the paper. Where my density is high I get metamorism (shiny reflective areas). Silver prints still sound better to me.
I also have a collection of black and white prints that are over 100 years old. Can you show me your 100 year old ink jet print? Isn't inkjet printing workflow your business anyway?
Anyway if anyone has used this service I'd love to get your feedback
Excellent suggestion.
They are what I use for B&W with my 3800. It is still a pretty nice printer isn't it?
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
That’s called gloss differential and when framed, doesn’t show. Or you can try something like this:
http://www.inkjetart.com/premier/Printshield_factsheet.pdf
Metamerism is simple: two (2) samples with different spectra compared to each other with a given set of viewing conditions, produce a match. Metamerism only applies to two color patches when they are compared. It is not correct to refer to one color from a given ink or paper and say that it suffers from metamerism. A "meterameric pair of color patches" means that they appear to match under a given illuminate. However, they may not appear to match under another illuminate. Metamers ("metameric stimuli") by definition are two different spectrums that appear to be the same color. If they don't look the same color, they are not metamers.
If you are viewing a print (lots of colors) and within differing viewing conditions, and there is a mismatch, this could be called a metameric mismatch or metameric failure. But its not metamerism. One sample compared to itself in differing viewing conditions (the print), the proper term would be when they appear to match is color constancy and when they don't, color inconstancy.
Yup, accelerated testing done here: http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
The proper inkset print type (Advanced B&W for example) and papers are hovering well over 100 years by far.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Nope. And I spent what amounts to years and years printing B&W in the analog darkroom (color too, E6 to RA4 to Ciba).
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Thanks for the link! I created my own profiles but will give these a shot. Yes the 3800 is a great little printer although the rip isn't great and the upgrade cost is much too expensive.
My Canon ipf5000 has 2 blacks and 2 grays. This will produce an absolutely neutral B&W print, with deep blacks and good tonal range. File prep, paper choice, and profiles are needed as well.
I would think the 3800 could produce similar prints.
Sam
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
I can show you a couple of framed black-and-white silver gelatin prints made for me less than 20 years ago by what I thought was a reputable lab when I did not have access to a darkroom. They have bronzed due to what I'm guessing is improper use of chemicals. I can also show you why the general public the world over thinks of old black-and-white prints as "sepia-toned..." it's because unless you are using expensive fiber paper with well-maintained chemicals and rinsing it with a high enough volume of running fresh water to make Al Gore raise his eyebrow, a darkroom print may not hold its original neutrality and has a pretty fair likelihood of discoloring to sepia.
The stability of black carbon pigment is quite well established. I have no problem trusting that at least as much as the acres of disappointingly faded B&W prints that have come out of darkrooms all over the world.
First, I noticed when holding the prints side by side in daylight that the grays in the Epson print had a slight magenta cast. I adjusted my file and reprinted. This was my forth print through the Epson as the first print was too dark compared to my monitor, my second print had a slight warm cast, my third print I thought was spot on until I compared it to the gelatin silver print, so I printed a fourth.
Second, the paper feel of the gelatin silver print was very nostalgic. It was heavy and stiff, this is just a bias from an old dude but I loved the feel.
Third, the gelatin silver print had better resolution (may not be the exact term) or "openess" in the shadows. I know I could correct this in the file, but that would involve a another Epson print and more time.
The one area where the Epson print excelled was in the blacks. The Epson print had a very nice black, very rich and deep. Although I do not have a densitometer but I am sure it was deeper.
In conclusion, I will use Digital Silver Imaging for my fine black & white printing. The prints have a kind of depth that perhaps comes from the fact that it is an emulsion, not ink on paper. My gelatin silver print was virtually perfect when it arrived flat in a nice reinforced package. I also had a client tell me that she would pay more for a traditional gelatin silver print than an inkjet print. It took 3 prints to get the print "right", and another to match the neutral tone of the Digital Silver Imaging print. The time, paper and ink cost spent with my Epson makes the cost between the two comparable. I give Digital SIlver Imaging 2 enthusiastic thumbs up.
Slightly tongue-in-cheek, I wonder if clients who disparage inkjet prints would prefer Giclée prints instead? Although as we know, they are one and the same, preconceptions can distort a person's view.
Anthony.
Eric Chan deserves a real thank you from us all, as his profiles really do help make black and white printing on an Epson 3800 much much better.
As for longevity, I think both media will outlast us all, but I am inclined to agree with Ian that carbon black will probably outlast silver halide without fading or sepiaing. But that is just an educated guess of curse, I will not live long enough to know for sure.
It sounds like the silver gelatin print was quite lovely too. Traditional gelatin prints will bring higher prices with some clients, that is not surprising. The value of an art object is always in the eye of the beholder.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin