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Q Re Offering Photos for Sale
sara505
Registered Users Posts: 1,684 Major grins
I take a lot of pictures. Here, there, and everywhere. Some for fun, some for hire. A couple of weeks ago a friend who is the front man for a local band, when I asked him if he minded if I shot the band while playing in a local bar, said, "Go ahead, do whatever you want." So I did. I created a SM gallery and sent the link a few people I thought would be interested. My theory is, these galleries do both of us - musician and photographer - a service; both of us can be found.
I have most of my galleries set up so that if people want to purchase a print, they can. For a very reasonable price, I might add. My prints start at .50/4x6. I set it up this way mostly as a convenience, and if the nickels and dimes end up paying for my SM site, fine. I often print stuff out and give it away, especially to friends. For my paid gigs, my preference is to get paid for my services rather than make a profit from prints. That's my choice and it's what has worked for me.
However...that being said...this morning I rec'd an e-mail from a gentleman who sat in as a guest blues harpist that night in the band mentioned above. He praised my work, but said, "I'm in this business and I like to do everything legally. Offering your images for sharing on FB and for self-promotion is one thing, but I don't think you can offer them for sale."
Is this true?
I have most of my galleries set up so that if people want to purchase a print, they can. For a very reasonable price, I might add. My prints start at .50/4x6. I set it up this way mostly as a convenience, and if the nickels and dimes end up paying for my SM site, fine. I often print stuff out and give it away, especially to friends. For my paid gigs, my preference is to get paid for my services rather than make a profit from prints. That's my choice and it's what has worked for me.
However...that being said...this morning I rec'd an e-mail from a gentleman who sat in as a guest blues harpist that night in the band mentioned above. He praised my work, but said, "I'm in this business and I like to do everything legally. Offering your images for sharing on FB and for self-promotion is one thing, but I don't think you can offer them for sale."
Is this true?
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A couple of questions:
1. Was the performance in a public place? If the answer is "yes" then that strengthens your right to use the image however you want.
2. Are you selling the images as "art," or are you selling the usage rights like a stock photo? If you are selling them as artwork then that also strengthens your right to use the image as you like.
Having said all that it is always best to get a model release. I would offer him a print in exchange for the release. That would be considered fair compensation and you are in the clear. If that doesn't work, I would simply take any images with this guy in them off your site. It's truly more his loss than yours.
Good luck!
Thanks for responding.
As for the "public place" question - I'm not sure. Is a bar considered a public place? As stated, the front man for the band is a friend of mine. He loves photos, he loves my work. While I did get his approval for the photography - carte blanche - it didn't cross my mind to ask for the pub owner's approval.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
A cursory search indicates that a bar is a public place.
And regarding question 2, I offer the prints for sale as a convenience, nothing more. I am happy to share for FB use, etc. I have a watermark and I limit the sizes available (realizing a while back that whoever really wants to lift an image from my site will do so, regardless of so-called right-click protection. I also offer a full-rez download for cheap.
However, I do have a couple of galleries that I've set aside for sales as art, and these are priced differently, i.e. much higher.
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1. I am removing the buy button from all of my personal galleries, not for legal reasons, but because I never want any of my friends to ever have the impression I am trying to sell them anything (even though a cursory glance at the prices would be your first clue that I'm not out to make a killing, and I'm more than happy to share *for nothing* if I am asked).
2. Sometimes people you think you know, you actually do not know very well.
3. Be careful out there, the rest of the world is not necessarily operating with my system of values.
Cheers,
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
Two main premises for my site/galleries. Pics of events (including sports tailgating) and bands/bars. Hence the "onthebandwagon" name.
I will have no problem offering prints for sale. The business model will be... download a watermarked version for free to post on facebook or wherever ya like. Want a clean print, pay for it.
Event photos is a big thing even in the legitimate press. Most of the philadelphia newpapers are doing it online... and many offer a "buy this" photo option. I bought one of my niece at a holiday parade a few years ago which was in my local paper
I'll take my chances. one in 1000 is going to have something to say and then I just take it down.
Been experimenting with this format for the last 6 mos and have had a few people regret pics. Its a common thing...especially with Facebook "Ugh.. I look awful in that pic, can you take down"
People taking pics of sporting events. 5k run through the city, well afterwards I can go to a site and see a pic, and BUY a copy! College rowing on the river... can buy a pic.
Good points.
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This is pretty simple in my mind, Although I am not sure what a "front man" is, I am thinking this person has some authority / business connection to the band. You asked and were given permission to photograph the band and "Do what ever you want".
That said you don't even need permission from anyone to shoot. Also the bar is private property, but the band saw you shooting, the bar saw you shooting, they didn't stop you, they apparently didn't have any signs prohibiting photography.
You can post your images and also sell them as art or photos, whatever. You can't use them for commercial purposes. IE: an advertisement.
I might call your friend, the front man, and discuss this with him. After that I might remove the images or not. Legally it's your choice.
I do not want to violate others rights or to offend, but will not allow others to trample my rights.
Please do not allow one disgruntled whoever to change your whole (photographic) life!!
Your prices are ridiculously low! Obviously intended to provide easy access to photos at an extremely affordable price. I would think your friends would appreciate this not be offended.
Don't be a sheeppeolple.
Sam
Reminds me of a mildly funny story. Went to see a friends band, and had my DSLR with big zoom lens (18-200 nikon). I am taking pics of the band and the crowd. I always make it clear to ask strangers, even with a gesture asking approval, if I could take a pic.
But I see a coworker of my friend (from the band) sitting across the bar. I recognized her from a picnic he has each year. So I pull out the zoom and go for the candid shot across the bar.
She catches me... comes storming over "Who are you? Why did you take my picture? Who brings a camera like that to a bar?"
I started explaining... "We both know John... its for the band... you and I met last summer" but she was so riled up, I think even though she saw the innocence of it she wouldnt give in and made me delete the pics! doh!
In the end no harm!
I understand, and agree. I do feel a little differently regarding friends, though.
It was a big deal for me to finally put my watermark on my work. I'm now much more willing to have people use them for FB, etc.
I'm still thinking about this incident. It left me a little rattled. I'll be over it soon.
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He may be right. But what about someone who films, say, a school concert in which copyrighted music is being performed, and sells copies of the videos?
In the meantime, I have removed any images of this gentleman, and have removed the option to purchase a download of the videos.
www.SaraPiazza.com - Edgartown News - Trad Diary - Facebook
I am in a cover band... very common to post covers on Youtube.
The general rules seem to be (my interpretation)
1) if a cover band is performing the song, posts on youtube, and clearly marks it as a cover, noone seems to cares... there are millions of these on YT. AS LONG AS YOU ARENT SELLING THE VIDEO.
2) If you then try to sell the music video (covering someone elses song), you need to license the song. http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp
3) If you use the actual recording from the original artist as background music, it will get noticed.
if you are selling it.. I'm sure they will jump all over you.
But I am far from an expert or lawyer. Just some experiences from doing the $400 a show cover band thang.
This fellow's objection stemmed from the fact that
1. I was offering a download of the video (Muddy Water - oh Boston, you're my home! owww!) at my standard $2 download purchase price (I also offered to give it to him - all moot at the moment, as I have removed anything with him in it "How dare you charge me $2 for something I performed in!").
2. The $2 download fee would be construed as "selling for profit."
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A video with sound of copyrighted music is a different story than a still image.
Contrary to a common misconception, selling copyrighted material for $$ has little to do with the entire concept of copyright or enforcement there of.
As an example you can not legally use say a Beetles song as background music for your latest video or slide show and distribute it, even for free.
You can not legally copy my image off the internet. You can not legally have it printed and hang in your living room. You can not legally copy it or use it in any way.
Sam
No. Not as long as you are selling them to end users, and not for advertising purposes. However, you could give them away and post them in the public domain and from there they could be used for advertising or potentially "whatever".
On the Song thing though....It is not at all legal to sell that. You have to have specific licensing to do so.
Interesting (!?) The song we all sing, "Happy Birthday to You", is copyright protected and it is illegal to sing in a public forum without proper licensing! we do it, it is rarely enforced, but it is a copyright infringement.
Otherwise, I understand you being rattled by the fellow. Sounds like he was trying to do that very thing. He's lucky you're a good sport and didn't take further creative license and make him much, much smaller than everyone else in the photos, or squeeze his head or ..some such!
Yes...but would you sell it?
I don't understand the question.
Sam
That's funny, I didn't understand much of your post, Sam.
Are you "fer it or agin it?"
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[PHP]It's not a fer or agin. It's the law, or at least our best attempts to interpret it without ten years of wrangling and a supreme court decision.
Still photos are different than music. If you take a still photo, even if not authorized to do so, you can still post it, print it, and sell it as fine art or for journalistic purposes. You can not use it for commercial purposes, IE: an add in a magizine.
A copyrighted performance, music included, however can not be recorded and replayed, even for your own private use.
Selling or not selling has little to do with weather or not you have violated a copyright.
That be how I sees it.
Clear?
Sam
It seems you have acted in a way which is ethical - you asked the band leader for permission.
However, when you want to act legally you are stepping into a minefield because the law is grey.
Did the band leader have authority to speak on behalf of his band members, especially a sit-in musician who is arguably not part of the band?
Is your on-the-nod permission from the band leader sufficient, seeing you did not explain your intention? He and the sit-in musician have civil rights too. Which contract do the band members have regarding use of their image or music?
Did you have permission to shoot on private premises or would a court determine that the bar was public in this case?
Are you free to sell images without permission and without compensation, even at low prices? People have a civil right to profit from their own image.
You also recorded their music - another can of worms.
When you want to make money - however little - by exploiting the image of someone else or even something else you are stepping on someones rights under several laws. Copyright is the least of the problems. Photographers have considerable leeway under precedents set a century ago but they do not enjoy legal immunity.
I would take down the image you took and apologize. When you want to fight this in the courts you will be several thousand dollars worse off, several years further, and maybe you lose despite your ethics.
Selling the images without compensation and without permission as fine-art is also a moot point imho. Say you make many thousands of dollars from a picture shot in the street? There are cases currently going through the courts in which plaintiffs object and which are not yet decided. My own expectation is that the courts will decide in favor of the plaintiffs - it would seem fair and in-line with umbrella legislation on human and civil rights. Better ask permission in advance and pay your subjects their dues.
Mostly these cases never hit the courts because there is no significant money involved. When they do the outcome is uncertain. Your safest course is to behave as if you truly respect the right of the person you photographed: so NO, you do not profit by selling or publishing somebody's image without their permission.
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