Nikkor 70-200 VRII mount problem?

cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
edited December 13, 2010 in Cameras
I do not own the above lens (I wish...) but a friend recently bought one and I had a chance to play with it over the weekend. Beautiful lens, if only I had the means...

She had it on a D700, and the first thing I noticed was that the lens would rotate back and forth just slightly, maybe a degree or two. It seemed loose to me. She said she'd never noticed. I wondered if the mount on her D700 was loose, so I put it on my D300, and had the same problem. When the lens was mounted on the tripod, I could rotate the camera body just slightly back and forth, and it definitely changed the angle of the scene in the viewfinder.

I am assuming this is NOT normal, correct? I'd think a lens of that caliber should have a rock solid connection to the body. None of the lenses I own show anything like this kind of loose mount. Anyway, I told her that I was pretty sure it was not right and that she should have it checked out. Was I wrong, is this a common and/or normal condition? I just can't believe this is within the tolerance of the F-mount...
Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
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Comments

  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Same thing on mine now you mention it.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Same thing on mine now you mention it.

    Wow, maybe this is normal. Frankly I'm stunned that there's that much play in the mount, particularly on a lens like this. It could definitely ruin your day if bracketing a shot on a tripod.

    Thanks for checking yours out.
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • r3t1awr3ydr3t1awr3yd Registered Users Posts: 1,000 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    I've got the VRI and it's the same way. I was nervous about it at first but it's never made a difference in shooting.

    None of my other lenses does this either.

    Hi! I'm Wally: website | blog | facebook | IG | scotchNsniff
    Nikon addict. D610, Tok 11-16, Sig 24-35, Nik 24-70/70-200vr
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Wow, maybe this is normal. Frankly I'm stunned that there's that much play in the mount, particularly on a lens like this. It could definitely ruin your day if bracketing a shot on a tripod.

    Thanks for checking yours out.

    Why do you think it would make any difference from shot to shot? I agree it seems odd, but how could it affect anything from shot to shot? Not arguing, just asking.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    Why do you think it would make any difference from shot to shot? I agree it seems odd, but how could it affect anything from shot to shot? Not arguing, just asking.

    Because when I had the lens mounted on my tripod, the camera body could rotate back and forth just a tad, but enough to change the image in the VF. If not careful (and not using a remote release), you could inadvertently rotate the body between brackets, which could negatively affect you if doing HDR or panos. It's probably not a huge deal, obviously it's an amazing lens, but I just was very surprised to see this, when a lens as cheap as my 35 f/1.8 mounts solidly and doesn't wiggle at all.
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Because when I had the lens mounted on my tripod, the camera body could rotate back and forth just a tad, but enough to change the image in the VF. If not careful (and not using a remote release), you could inadvertently rotate the body between brackets, which could negatively affect you if doing HDR or panos. It's probably not a huge deal, obviously it's an amazing lens, but I just was very surprised to see this, when a lens as cheap as my 35 f/1.8 mounts solidly and doesn't wiggle at all.

    RIGHT! I see your point. I was thinking bassackwards. With the camera mounted to the tripod there would not be an issue. With the lens mounted to the tripod, uh-oh. WTF, Nikon?!?!?
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    RIGHT! I see your point. I was thinking bassackwards. With the camera mounted to the tripod there would not be an issue. With the lens mounted to the tripod, uh-oh. WTF, Nikon?!?!?

    Yup. And I'm aware some people mount the camera to the tripod with the 70-200, but it seems a bit heavy to do that for my tastes. I'd much prefer to use the tripod foot and not stress the mount on the body with all that weight hanging off of it.
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,130 moderator
    edited December 13, 2010
    Some rotational freedom is required of all bayonet (and previously breech) mount systems. The latching mechanism, which varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, is the component of the lens "and" the camera which ultimately controls final rotational freedom. While a little play is considered normal, if it is truly 2 degrees of rotaion that does seem extreme. I doubt if this is considered outside of the manufacturer tolerances however.

    If this is truly a concern you might consider having the mount replaced on the lens. It would probably be a considerable cost but it might alleviate the problem. Of course it might also be slightly worse.

    A better solution is to recognize the rotational play and develop a procedural strategy to counter the play when it is important to do so. As long as the lens is performing satisfactorily in other regards, this is not a deal breaker IMO.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    I agree Ziggy, but one has to wonder why it's this way on the 70-200 and not on ANY of my six other Nikkors or my one Tamron. And other folks have noticed it on theirs. Does it serve a purpose we don't know about?
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Super Moderators Posts: 24,130 moderator
    edited December 13, 2010
    Icebear wrote: »
    I agree Ziggy, but one has to wonder why it's this way on the 70-200 and not on ANY of my six other Nikkors or my one Tamron. And other folks have noticed it on theirs. Does it serve a purpose we don't know about?

    I have noticed on my Canon lenses that the larger, longer, heavier lenses have more play than the lighter and shorter lenses. I suspect (and this is just conjecture) that longer and heavier lenses are more prone to mechanical mount "binding" from the hung weight of the lens. If you are in a sports situation (or similar) you are often in a hurry to change lenses and binding is the last thing you want to happen.

    Since many of the longer and heavier lenses are used in sports applications I have to wonder if the manufacturers take that use as a primary concern and make engineering decisions and adjustments accordingly.

    A different latching mechanism could be developed, and the mechanical engineer in me would suggest a "wedge" design which could limit rotational and even longitudinal play, but that would involve changing the mount itself. Most of the current lens mounts were developed very long ago and current applications, like multiple exposures for the purpose of HDR etc., were not a consideration.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Thanks for the explanation, Ziggy. It makes sense and beyond that, reassures me that my friend didn't get some kind of a dud lens. My estimate of 1-2 degrees was a total WAG, as I didn't measure it. It just seemed to me to be excessive. However, since I have no experience with lenses of this size, weight, or caliber, I really don't know. (Which of course was why I asked.)

    The engineer in me also thinks that a more solid mount could be designed, perhaps an extra lock on the lens itself so the mount wouldn't need any updates, but as you say, if that encourages binding, that's not a good solution. So I guess it's no worries, and normal operation.
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    I do not own the above lens (I wish...) but a friend recently bought one and I had a chance to play with it over the weekend. Beautiful lens, if only I had the means...

    She had it on a D700, and the first thing I noticed was that the lens would rotate back and forth just slightly, maybe a degree or two. It seemed loose to me. She said she'd never noticed. I wondered if the mount on her D700 was loose, so I put it on my D300, and had the same problem. When the lens was mounted on the tripod, I could rotate the camera body just slightly back and forth, and it definitely changed the angle of the scene in the viewfinder.

    I am assuming this is NOT normal, correct? I'd think a lens of that caliber should have a rock solid connection to the body. None of the lenses I own show anything like this kind of loose mount. Anyway, I told her that I was pretty sure it was not right and that she should have it checked out. Was I wrong, is this a common and/or normal condition? I just can't believe this is within the tolerance of the F-mount...


    I just checked my VR2 and it rotates...
    I'd estimate appx 1/3rd of 1 degree.

    300f/4...1/2 of 1 degree

    35-70 f/2.8 1/2-3/4 of one degree.

    all very negligible as far as I can tell.
    tom wise
  • cab.in.bostoncab.in.boston Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    I emailed Thom Hogan about this, and he confirms this is "normal vehicle operation." He says it's there for a reason, but didn't elaborate. I'm guessing Ziggy's explanation is the reason. I guess I've learned something today. :D

    I'm now curious about my guesstimate of 1-2 degrees, so the next time I get together with my friend I'm going to make some closer observations and get a better guess on how much it rotates. I have to think it's more than 1/3 of 1 degree, because I'm just not sure I'd notice a rotation that small.
    Father, husband, dog lover, engineer, Nikon shooter
    My site 365 Project
  • angevin1angevin1 Registered Users Posts: 3,403 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    I emailed Thom Hogan about this, and he confirms this is "normal vehicle operation." He says it's there for a reason, but didn't elaborate. I'm guessing Ziggy's explanation is the reason. I guess I've learned something today. :D

    I'm now curious about my guesstimate of 1-2 degrees, so the next time I get together with my friend I'm going to make some closer observations and get a better guess on how much it rotates. I have to think it's more than 1/3 of 1 degree, because I'm just not sure I'd notice a rotation that small.


    Oh....I think you'd notice it! And I'd go so far as to say you could even make it make a sound clunking back-n-forth! But, yes check your friends and report back. It wouldn't be too hard for me to make a measurement apparatus that I could use a digital micrometer on...and if so, I'd say my guess was pretty darned close...at least on my lenses. Still, I was surprised it was there.
    tom wise
  • IcebearIcebear Registered Users Posts: 4,015 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Well, lets see. Let's do a test. I've mounted my 24-70 on my D700. OK, if I twist hard enough . . . OH CRAP!!!
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • MileHighAkoMileHighAko Registered Users Posts: 413 Major grins
    edited December 13, 2010
    Same thing on my D7000 and D5000. Both bodies have a bit of play with the 70-200. I noticed it when I was renting lenses, and it is the same on the one I own.

    In fact, on the D7000 there is enough play in the rotation that when I first attach the lens, rotating too far in one direction causes the cpu contacts to come out of contact and the body doesn't recognize the lens. Funny thing is that after a few minutes of use, the rotation doesn't matter and the cpu contacts don't lose connection.

    Stranage.
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