My wife shocked me last night...
My wife told me last night that she wanted a camera to take pictures of the family around the house (primarily). So I responded that I'd look into a P&S for her, but nope, she wants good pictures and is interested in learning how to use a "real" camera.
/boggle
"Great" I say... I can teach you how to use my camera. "No good" she says - my camera intimidates her and is too heavy (1D4). Hmm... I can take the grip off of my old camera (40D) and that can be her camera. Except, of course, she's looking to take good shots indoors primarily and isn't going to want to deal with an external flash. I enjoyed my 40D a lot, but high-ISO is not its strong suit. Back into research mode I go!
So, I'm looking for a lightweight kit that's primarily for taking pictures of family indoors, generally w/o using flash.
The body is pretty easy once I focus on her requirements and not mine - Rebel T2i. Good high-ISO performance and lightweight (530g).
Where I'm having problems is the lens. Lightweight and fast glass don't play nice together. With the 1.6 crop body, it'll also need to be a fairly short focal length for shooting indoors.
Some of the options I've looked at so far:
1) Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM (645g) - Probably my default answer. Fantastic IQ, IS and fast (on the zoom scale). I'm worried about handling since the lens weighs more than the body. I've got a friend with this lens and an older Rebel, so I'll borrow that to see how they are together but feedback from those (particularly women) that use the combination together would be great.
2) Canon EF 24mm f/1.4 L II USM (650g) - Nice focal length on a 1.6 crop, fast but about the same weight issue as (1). I'll work with my wife to figure out what FoV she likes and whether she'd prefer a zoom. I started looking at this one on the theory that it would be lighter than (1), but it's clearly not.
This one does have the bonus of "sharing" for me and my 1D4
3) Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM (430g) - Good focal length, fast and the lens is actually lighter than the body. This one is tempting, but reviews are a bit mixed - although probably not anymore mixed than similar Canon lenses...
4) Canon EF 24mm f/2.8 (270g) - Seems to be the best of the fast, non-L primes in the 20 - 35mm range. I'm really not a fan of non-USM lenses though...
5) Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II USM (640g) - Wasn't really considering this one, but given the weight of (1) and (2) plus the fact that I already own this one, it's worth considering. Definitely a more limited zoom range than (1) and won't be as sharp and no IS. Probably not the right answer for my wife.
6) Canon EF 17-40mm f/4 L USM (475g) - Not normally considered an indoor lens, but given the high ISO performance of the T2i, it's worth tossing on the list. If (1) handles ok on the T2i, then it should be a better fit.
Appreciate any experiences or recommendations.
Jay
/boggle
"Great" I say... I can teach you how to use my camera. "No good" she says - my camera intimidates her and is too heavy (1D4). Hmm... I can take the grip off of my old camera (40D) and that can be her camera. Except, of course, she's looking to take good shots indoors primarily and isn't going to want to deal with an external flash. I enjoyed my 40D a lot, but high-ISO is not its strong suit. Back into research mode I go!
So, I'm looking for a lightweight kit that's primarily for taking pictures of family indoors, generally w/o using flash.
The body is pretty easy once I focus on her requirements and not mine - Rebel T2i. Good high-ISO performance and lightweight (530g).
Where I'm having problems is the lens. Lightweight and fast glass don't play nice together. With the 1.6 crop body, it'll also need to be a fairly short focal length for shooting indoors.
Some of the options I've looked at so far:
1) Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM (645g) - Probably my default answer. Fantastic IQ, IS and fast (on the zoom scale). I'm worried about handling since the lens weighs more than the body. I've got a friend with this lens and an older Rebel, so I'll borrow that to see how they are together but feedback from those (particularly women) that use the combination together would be great.
2) Canon EF 24mm f/1.4 L II USM (650g) - Nice focal length on a 1.6 crop, fast but about the same weight issue as (1). I'll work with my wife to figure out what FoV she likes and whether she'd prefer a zoom. I started looking at this one on the theory that it would be lighter than (1), but it's clearly not.
This one does have the bonus of "sharing" for me and my 1D4
3) Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM (430g) - Good focal length, fast and the lens is actually lighter than the body. This one is tempting, but reviews are a bit mixed - although probably not anymore mixed than similar Canon lenses...
4) Canon EF 24mm f/2.8 (270g) - Seems to be the best of the fast, non-L primes in the 20 - 35mm range. I'm really not a fan of non-USM lenses though...
5) Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II USM (640g) - Wasn't really considering this one, but given the weight of (1) and (2) plus the fact that I already own this one, it's worth considering. Definitely a more limited zoom range than (1) and won't be as sharp and no IS. Probably not the right answer for my wife.
6) Canon EF 17-40mm f/4 L USM (475g) - Not normally considered an indoor lens, but given the high ISO performance of the T2i, it's worth tossing on the list. If (1) handles ok on the T2i, then it should be a better fit.
Appreciate any experiences or recommendations.
Jay
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Comments
Please tell your wife that she really "needs" to consider:
The flash is an important consideration because available light is usually either the wrong white balance, insufficiently bright enough to offer proper exposure without highest ISOs, insufficiently strong enough to allow rapid and precise AF, or some combination of the above.
A flash with an AF assist light can help to solve all of the above problems and issues. The flash can be mounted atop the camera, so it doesn't have to be unnecessarily big and bulky. (My Canon 1D series with a flash bracket and tall modifier and big glass is very big and bulky, but it yields great results.
With both the T2i and the 40D the center AF point is sensitive to lenses of f2.8 aperture and larger and it is both higher accuracy and faster with that type of lens. The 17-55mm is also very contrasty making AF especially quick compared to some other lenses.
Please show your wife these images and tell her that in order to get these types of quality an external flash and flash modifier plus a good lens are the key ingredients for success. (I believe that all of the following are using either a Canon XT/350D or 40D and a single flash with either of 2 flash modifiers.):
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The flash is an important consideration because available light is usually either the wrong white balance, insufficiently bright enough to offer proper exposure without highest ISOs, insufficiently strong enough to allow rapid and precise AF, or some combination of the above.
I have nowhere nearly Ziggy's expertise, but I would add another reason: without flash, the light indoors is often at the wrong angle, which can cause problems like having faces shadowed, or just lacking highlights.
I find that I can get pretty good indoor shots (not on a par with Ziggy's, but hey) with a very simple rig: a small flash (I use a 430 EXII) mounted on the camera, with a stofen omnibounce and a Demb Flip-It for a bounce card. With that, you don't need expensive, fast glass. I do most of mine (on a crop sensor camera) with a Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, which works fine, since for candid shots I generally use f/4.5 or so. I do have a bracket, but I often don't use it.
So no: External flash. I take it she's considering on-board flash? That can be achieved and you can show her how, right? dialing the flash back. She's going to HAVE to use flash if she'd like some control, plus that might keep her off the roof of the ISO issue/s.
Do the same thing you would do when deciding lenses. Look at the photos she's been taking and figure out what focal range she seems to prefer!
The Sigma EF 530 DG Super flashes are lighter than the Canon flashes of the same power class and less expensive too. I find them perfectly competent, even for professional use. Just make sure to use an appropriate flash modifier.
If the Canon EF-S 17-55mm, f2.8 IS USM is too heavy try a Tamron 17-50mm, f2.8 XR Di-II LD SP ZL Aspherical (IF). It is considerably lighter, still very good image quality, and considerably less expensive too.
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Hi Ziggy,
Good point about the flash. I'll have to noodle on this one some... There is a lot for her to learn and I don't want to kill her new found interest in photography by overwhelming her. Initially I'll probably park her in Av mode until she gets the basics down. No green boxes allowed
She already understands at least some of the ideas behind bounce flash because she's seen me do it and had to listen to my explanations when she asked why the flash wasn't pointed at the subject.
I'll take a look back through my shots from Thanksgiving. While I pretty much always used an external flash on my 40D when indoors, I've been leaning heavily on high-ISO performance of my 1D4 since I got it. Easy enough to review my settings and see what it is like in my house.
Jay
I happily used that and a 420ex (ETTL only) and 430ex (ETTL or manual) flash on an XSi, the body of which is roughly the same as the T series. If she's really bothered by the weight and is willing to live with bouncy only, there's always the little 270 flash. They're kinda cute, actually and, while not a "full-featured" flash that can bounce and swivel, it is a lightweight way of boosting the popup and avoiding the "on-camera flash" look since it will bounce.....
Oh, she's not thinking about flash at all - and I don't mean that she's against it. I mean she's given it no thought.
She does understand that direct flash generally results in P&S quality photos. She's heard me discuss why I use bounce flash, but I haven't ever discussed the concept of FEC with her.
This is one of those things I'm going to work her up to as she learns. No doubt she'll get there, but don't want to bury her in the details (yet).
She's mostly been leaving that up to me the last few years, so I'm going to put a camera in her hands and walk her through some experiments to see what she thinks she likes. With indoor photography, we aren't likely to get too far off the mark. The focal ranges are definitely more bounded.
Thanks,
Jay
And my take on her requirements (small, not intimidating, etc.) as well as the distinct possibility of her becoming frustrated and dropping the whole thing:a Canon SX30 or some other bridge camera. Even swapping lenses is going to seem like a PITA to her starting out.
If you want her to get hooked, KISS initially. A bridge camera will allow her to learn most everything a SLR can do but in a less intimidating package. And there's always the green box.
Roak
Ps. And for full disclosure, no, I wasn't successful.
<== Mighty Murphy, the wonder Bouv!
Good idea! I'll put my SmugMug strap on it. Very comfy, but I've moved on to a Luma Loop instead of a traditional around-the-neck strap.
Will definitely check those out, thanks.
Thanks. Not overly familiar with 3rd party lenses. I'll take a look.
Jay
The lens or the body? I'm sticking to Canon for the body so she can use my lenses when/if she wants to. For the lens, I'm more flexible assuming good quality product.
No worries, I appreciate the feedback. For what she wants to do, she's not as concerned (yet) about "critically sharp" - at least in the sense that it normally gets used in photography forums. Right now she wants memories and a path for her to improve over time.
I don't even hesitate to use ISO 3200 on my 1D4. Of course, that's not a T2i and I mostly shoot sports so it is a different ballgame
She's seen the difference between my flash and non-flash shots, so she's familiar with the different looks. I'm not scared of flash personally, though I'm far from an expert with it. It's all going to come down to what she's comfortable picking up and using regularly.
As much as possible, I'm trying to set her up to enjoy using the camera and continuing her interest. I'd love to be able to share my love of photography with her beyond the final output and "humoring me" when I prattle on about it.
Jay
you don't need to, to start. An E-TTL flash will get it right with bounce flash a lot of the time with no FEC.
So noted
I didn't realize the 270 would bounce. That's small and light enough that it might work for her. My 580 weighs almost as much as the body, so won't fit her current theory about how she wants to use the camera.
Good suggestion, thanks!
Jay
Yep, that's absolutely my main focus.
I'll ask her about that. She says she wants to learn and didn't want a P&S, but I didn't think about a bridge camera.
Jay
Are you sure about the T2i low-light performance vs. the 40D? 40D only goes up to ISO 1600 (3200 in expansion mode) vs. 6400 native for the T2i...
Just joking
flickr.com/photos/photoskipper/
If you are only interested in how high ISO you can set the camera to, then the T2i wins of course, but if the actual image quality matters to you, then it is much closer. I have owned a 40d and still own a 450d, 550d, 5d and 5d MkII.
From my experience there isn't much difference between all the crop sensor cameras, it seems like most of the advances are in higher megapixels rather than low light performance. As a rule of thumb I am happy to use all of them up to ISO800 and occasionally 1600. The 5D and 5D MkII are better in low light and I use the MkII at ISO3200 quite often.
Had a quick google regarding the 40d vs 7d (same sensor as T2i/550d) and tests seem to show the 7d maybe 1 stop better, but that this is achieved with stronger in-camera noise reduction, which obviously limits the application of noise reduction in post.
I'm not looking for just higher numbers, but more what it implies. The usual review sources didn't have any direct comparisons between the T2i and the 40D (or even the 50D). They compare noise handling against other cameras in the same class. Different generation, different class of camera == limited head-to-head IQ data.
I forgot that the more amazing thing about the sensor was that they were able to improve noise handling while simultaneously increasing the resolution.
I really appreciate the comparison since you have both bodies. 40D I know well. Rebels I only have indirect experience with (friends, mom, etc.) and none of them have the current generation.
I took the grip off of my 40D and put a my 16-35 f/2.8 on it since it weighs pretty much the same as the 17-55 f/2.8. Handed it to my wife to hold and she was much happier about the size and weight of the whole thing.
I also borrowed my friends Rebel + 17-55 f/2.8 so she could try that out.
She really didn't like the handling of the Rebel. The 40D fit her hands much better. She also really liked the 17-55 lens. Showed her the effect of IS and then she really liked that.
We started talking through the issues of shooting indoors in low-light, flashes, etc. She asked me what I meant by "P&S look", so I popped the on-board flash up and took a picture of her. She mostly just shrugged.
Then I put my external flash on and took a bounce flash shot and that sealed the deal other than the size. She's looking at the 580 on top of the camera and it looks huge. I showed her a picture of the 270 (thanks divamum!) and that was it.
It looks like we'll end up with her using my 40D + a new lens (17-55 f/2.8) and a new flash (270ex).
Oh, I put my SM strap back on the 40D but even though it is comfortable, she doesn't like neck straps. She wants one like I use (Luma Loop).
Thanks much for all the feedback folks. It's been very helpful.
Jay
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Hopefully the next generation of crop sensors should be a big improvement. After all the 1D4 has a fairly high pixel density and is apparently better than the 5D2 in low light.
Yes, you can bounce with the 270. It won't swivel, but it does rotate up for bounce.
Cool, that's handy to know
― Edward Weston
Without the swivel you won't be able to take a portrait oriented shot with bounce flash... unless you bounce it off a white wall instead of a ceiling.
I am a firm believer in using flash but, not the built-in flash; rather a good hotshoe flash with a good diffuser/reflector. My favorite diffuser/reflector is the Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro ( www.dembflashproducts.com )
A good hotshoe flash with a diffuser/reflector, properly used, will normally produce better imagery than available light alone.
When talking about available light, most photographers simply talk about the quantity of that light and assume that if you have a fast enough lens and a camera which will function well at a high ISO; everything will be great.
This is not usually the case. IMO, many times the quality of available lighting provides terrible imagery. The photographer has control of his flash and, when properly used, flash illuminated images usually look better than those shot with available light.
Yep. Already explained that one to my wife after the flash came in (gotta love Amazon Prime!) and she started playing with it.
It's a reasonable trade off vs. the weight of a bounce + swivel flash. I have a 580ex II, so this way she can have the lightweight flash most of the time and can put my bigger flash on when she needs the swivel.