Frustration
rt2photo
Registered Users Posts: 143 Major grins
I shoot a lot of dance events and dancers, and last year shot the workshops and main event for a relatively large, well known charity fundraiser. The shots came out great, many dancers purchased CDs of their performance and I got a couple of follow up studio shots. I turned 10% of my profits back around to the organizers as a donation to their charity (they weren't expecting it, and it went over very well), and verbally, we agreed to do it again next year.
Now it's next year and they are starting to organize things again. I reach out to ask if they still want my services as a shooter for the event - and find out that they have invited a performer, who happens to own a DSLR and tell people she's a photographer (kit lens, full auto mode, popup flash) to shoot the whole thing. Even better - she's dancing, so she'll have to STOP shooting to go get ready, perform, and start again. From previous run ins, I know she gives the JPGs over to the dancers and organizers without charge because she's "so happy to help the community".
I have been invited to bring my studio lights, backdrops and stands and setup in a corner to offer "studio" shoots to whoever wants to model in front of a room full of other people ... and contend with the performers ... as a vendor. Of course, there is a vendor fee to pay, and new this year is a *required* 10% donation of your takings.
Thats a small motive, and I'm highly unlikely to make any significant money to even cover my costs and compensate me for my time, so I've bowed out gracefully.
Just venting ... this has been eating away at me for a few days ...
Now it's next year and they are starting to organize things again. I reach out to ask if they still want my services as a shooter for the event - and find out that they have invited a performer, who happens to own a DSLR and tell people she's a photographer (kit lens, full auto mode, popup flash) to shoot the whole thing. Even better - she's dancing, so she'll have to STOP shooting to go get ready, perform, and start again. From previous run ins, I know she gives the JPGs over to the dancers and organizers without charge because she's "so happy to help the community".
I have been invited to bring my studio lights, backdrops and stands and setup in a corner to offer "studio" shoots to whoever wants to model in front of a room full of other people ... and contend with the performers ... as a vendor. Of course, there is a vendor fee to pay, and new this year is a *required* 10% donation of your takings.
Thats a small motive, and I'm highly unlikely to make any significant money to even cover my costs and compensate me for my time, so I've bowed out gracefully.
Just venting ... this has been eating away at me for a few days ...
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The challenge I face is that my wife is involved heavily in the dance community, so while I would have LOVED to have told them to stick this dancers camera somewhere not very sunny, she'd only find it harder to find venues and opportunities to dance, so I have to be nice
This dancer/photographer has jumped into several recent events, and stepped on a few semi-pro and pro toes in the process. She's well known and respected as a dancer, and has many students and protege's out there that she has influence with, so what she says, goes with them.
It's one of those environment where the final product is rarely appreciated (I've seen iPhone snaps at events get more praise and compliments than a pro's finished results). I'm really better off without this gig this time around!
Still, it chaps!
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I have a thought, probably won't work, but what have you got to loose? Explaining the situation to us lets you vent a little but won't really help you. Why not go in person and talk to "they" explain what you explained here and add that since they are now picking up on the 10% that you volunteered last year, they may want to reevaluate having a participant volunteer do the photography.
Don't knock the volunteer, rather explain that special high end gear, and experience is needed to shoot in these low light situations. In addition to this you understand the volunteer is planning and / or has given the photos away at no cost, so the dance group looses any revenue here.
First the group looses on image quality and event coverage, then revenue.
Explain that it would be not be financially viable for you to comment to the day, bring out 10K 15K Etc. of equipment pay a vendor fee, pay an additional 10% on top of that, for what you perceive as very few orders.
Don't diminish anyone, don't push just say you wouldn't feel right if you didn't speak up. leave the door open for the future.
Sam
Added after seeing the above post. Tell them that just because you photograph dancers doesn't mean you can dance, and that just because someone is a great dancer doesn't mean they can be a good dance photographer.
They know this ... one of the organizers better than the others, as her husband is a hobbyist photographer who *refuses* to shoot events, specifically because he knows he doesn't have the desire or equipment needed.
It's reading more like a situation where this dancer/shooter is using her influence on her student dancers (the organizers - all grown women, not kids) to get her own interests furthered. She's an older woman, and has frequently told my wife socially that she's looking for another outlet now her dancing days are getting numbered. Guess this is it *shrug*
When I backed out, I explained the environment and setup wasn't conducive to a studio - left it at that.
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Thats what I'm counting on. The venue is very hard to light (the roof is funny shapes and mirrors / hanging crystal lights), and the walls are brown, with gold / brown stripes - TONs of color bleed. Last I saw, she shoots with the kit lens and the popup flash ...
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Don't count on that ... I do a number of charity events and very few non-professional event organizers care or even understand about the communications end of the event. They know they need posters, media releases/kits and photography but do not have the education and/or experience to comprehend/care about the quality of said communication tools. (I doubt that the people you're dealing with even have the ability to differentiate between good and rotten photography).
Question:
1)Did you give the event organizers any of your images for marketing/publicity pro bono?
2) Did you ask why she was chosen over you? Did they compare portfolios?
As a general rule for most non-professionally run charity events it's all about personal relationships. The dancer played that card. What is sad and unprofessional of the charity organizers is that they didn't tell you that your services would not be necessary. I've been through similar situations a number of times, shoot an event one year and the next year it was shot by event staffers with dSLR's and pop-up flashes who couldn't spell ISO.
When I shoot theatrical productions production I usually have another photog with me and we work together shooting the same scene from different angles and we work together. There isn't any rational or compelling reason/rule/law why both of you couldn't shoot the event.
If this is important to you ask to meet with the organizers to review why they chose her over you. At that meeting inquire what changes can you institute to shoot the event again. Remind them that four eyes are better than two.
In the past one element that helped separate amateur from pro was the darkroom ... nowadays everybody has a computer and printer ... so everybody thinks they're a professional.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
You made me think this through a bit with this comment ... I don't think it's *that* important to me anymore.
1) They had all the shots from last year to promote this years event (and are using them).
2) I've shot one of the organizers in my studio, the community is small enough that they have both seen me at other events, bought CDs and prints from me of their own performances - and they have both seen this dancer/photographers work, and been shot by her (but of course, received these shots for free)
I'm just bowing out - not going to fight this one, not going to ask to shoot alongside her ... they have seen the difference in quality and if they don't know the difference by now, I'm clearly not going to change their opinion now.
It still chaps though
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You do the right thing by these people, help them out and make sure they are happy and in return for your efforts, your loyality and contributions are thrown back in your face.
I have had the same thing happen to me a couple of times and I fully understand why your ticked off. You ought to be.
I had a similar thing years ago. A school wanted a shooter to do a formal but didn't want to pay for one and no one was interested in doing it on spec as all the local shooters had been burnt on it before. A friend asked me to do it as a favour to her more than anything as she was the head organiser. I did it totaly different to what it had been done before and made good money from it and the photos were a talking point of the event. That was probably my mistake.
I made a donation to the school they certainly didn't expect as well as doing a number of shots for their benifit exclusively which they used extensively over the next 12 months.
The next year they put tenders out for shooters for the event and wanted to charge them for the priveledge of covering it. I didn't even get first refusal. Before I knew about this, I asked my friend about it and she told me she was no longer on the committee and best I don't worry about it. Her husband told me she resigned in disgust when the rest of the committee refused to give me the gig they had been begging me to do the year before.
I found out through various sources the entire event was a real scmozzle that year as it had been before my friend organised it and the photographer they got did a bunch of crap flash on camera shots of some of the kids, got plastered and was asleep in his car in the carpark by 9pm... right before the main ceremony.
These wannabe shooters are a real pain and I[m having trouble with one at the moment myself. She is well connected in the sport i'm chasing through being a competitor but now she is not able to compete any longer, she things she's a shooter with her two entry level aging Dslr's and kit lenses.
She gives her work away ( and she'd be hard pressed to sell it lets fact it!) and that seems to outweigh all else with organisers.
I had an organiser knock me back for covering what I though may have been a worthwhile event last week because this shooter has offered to cover the event for them for nothing. I asked if they were happy with the type of shots she did and got the reply that she had been taking photos for " Some time" now and they were sure she could " Manage a few Snaps".
I simply said to the organiser, " Good luck with that, I think you'll need it".
It would be comforting to think that they will be horrofied with the work and regret they didn't get me to do it but that won't happen. Even if the work is crap they will convince themselves it's great rather than admit their mistake. I always give organisers free pics but don't make a fuss of it. Apparently that's a mistake on my part as well.
The consulation with these things is they often tick you off enough to put more effort into finding something else which turns out better and more profitable so you have to look back and be thankful for what they did.
Pitty loyality and doing the right thing by people has no value and fails to be respected in any way though.
Out of everything I run into, this drives me up the wall the most. I'll see a dancer posting a horrendous P&S photo taken at a poorly lit dance event to their profile - a dozen "omg you're beautiful" comments later and I'm clawing my eyes out ...
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-Jon
It would make life harder for my wife to get dance gigs ... small community and word (not always the *right* word) gets around. I'm just going to drop it, move on.
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I know exactly what you mean.
Sounds like a lot of the model folios I saw at a site I was just looking at.
You can go on about quality and craftmanship and all that till your blue in the face but at the end of the day and increasingly so, Price, namely free, overides a lot of sins and goes a long way to making happy even if poorly serviced customers.
The forum mantra of explaining your years of training, amount and value of equipment you use and all that is basicaly worthless. If the client dosen't have the brains and good sense to see it for themselves, not use explaing it to them.... especially when in the next breath your asking for them to pay for photos when they can get, albeit relatively crap, for nothing!
That's the smartest, most productive and mature and also most dis satisfying thing you can do !
If the clients realise their mistake, good and well but it's probably a long shot. Even if they do their pride is unlikley to have them coming back to you as an admission of their error.
All you can do is move on to pastures greener and hope the people grazing there aren't as stupid and cheap as the last lot.
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I guess we are all subject to so many of the same influences now in marketing and advertising, News, TV and movies..... And very little of it is aimed at those with any intellect above that possed buy your average house plant or door knob.
Photography really iws getting a hard game.
On one side you have the amateurs armed as never before, on the other you a complete oversaturation of the market with people offering their services of whatever level and ability at unsustainable rates and then you the clients with rapidly declining standards for quality but rapidly lowering inclination to pay for photos of any level.
I have been working at getting myself involved with work that is less vulnerable to the amateur attack of them taking their own pics but avoiding competition is much more difficult.
Currently I'm working on some marketing materials for new offerings that I'm not aware aware of anyone else doing. Hopefully that will get me some worthwhile business and tide me over for a few years untill everyone else inevitably jumps on the bandwagon.
I think having the ability to offer something unique and have business and marketing skills is more important than ever but I also think that in a lot of cases it isn't going to be enough nor do I know what is.
I got an email from the main guy a week later and he said they got lots of terrible photos and no one was, "on their game" so next time how much will it cost to have you come shoot an event? And he was sorry for the confusion and lack of communication.
Sometimes you have to let them bellyflop and realize what they are giving up to get something for free. To most people, someone shows up with a D40 and it looks pretty pro. They can't tell the difference between a $300 camera and a $6000 one. And they have no idea the huge disparity in image quality, and skill it takes to use them. All photos look pretty rad on a little LCD!
I bet next time, you will be asked to do it again, on your terms.
Instead, they just cancelled and went with the same woman above - everything for free, kit lens etc. Man.
I think my resolution for 2011 is to get the hell out of event shooting in this particular community.
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What gets me, these aren't small events - they are flying named dancers in, they are booking expensive venues, they are lining up 20+ dancers and paying for advertising and getting brochures designed. I *know* they are paying for a videographer, because I know who it is, she's also a dancer, but her dayjob is working a camera at a community TV station - she knows her stuff and is charging accordingly.
Photography though - yeah, we'll just get the free one.
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Funny you mention Video.
I have been looking at that lately and it seems there are wider opportunities and far less competition in that field.
If there are less wannabe's giving their work away and undercutting prices than in Stills, it has to be a market worth considering.
The saddest part is that they don't *know* they are getting dross in their pictures. They don't even recognize the out of focus, back of the head shots as bad - I guess they think it's "arty"? I don't know ... I know half the shots that end up out there wouldn't even make it past my rating system before I even pp!
I've tried video, but beyond sticking my G11 on a gorrilapod wrapped around a lightstand and let it run away to itself while I shoot, I stay way clear, that shit is *hard*
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I think that is what will really be it's saving grace however. Digital stills have made it far too easy for every Johhny to come along and play Photographer.
Yeah, a lot of DSLR's have video but it's still a long way from what can be done with a real video camera.
I think video has a steep learning curve but so does proper professional photography unlike the " Ooh, look, the picture turned out, I'm a photographer now" brigade that we are being drowned with.
It was the difficulties of film that kept the wannabe's to a reasonable level and maybe the fact that Vid isn't as easy as stills will keep it less troubled by the problems of everyone wanting to do it.
As for frustration and getting out of shooting particular events, I'm about to do that on one level.
I just did a couple of events that were a waste of time. Even though I was asked to cover one, the organisers asked somone who I have since found out is a friend of the organisers albeit a plentiful but in all respects hopelessly unprofessional shooter.
At first I took it as a feather in my cap I was aasked to cover these events, now I'm wondering what the real reason was. I suspect it was to give the events some credibility.
I found out yesterday through the grapevine that I'm going to be asked to cover another prestige event by the same organiser that I know won't be worth my while. I already asked about another event that would be worthwhile and have been given excuses leading up to what I highly suspect will be a let down on that one and they will hand it to the other shooter.... that will take a perfectly good opportunith to make some money and completely waste it as she always does.
I'm going to turn the tides on this next one I'm asked to do and tell the organiser that for this type of event, I'll only do it as a prepaid contractor and I'll shoot the pics and hand them over and they can sell them.
I'm half suspecting they will tell me that a lot of the riders are pros and won't want photos which I'll turn right back and say thats exactly why I'm not going to take the risk with my time and effort and will only do it on a commissioned basis.
Of course I know they aren't going to pay for someone to cover the event in a million years when the other "shoot everything that moves and shoot it 10 times if it stays still and dress like your out for a day at the beach" wannabe will do it for nothing.
That's fine.
I discovered long ago I don't have to go out and work hard to make nothing, I can do that sitting on my a$$ in a comfy chair front of the TV at home.
As far as I am concerned, I have the runs on the board for this type of work and if they want me and what I do which no one else has the setup to do, they are going to have to make it worth my effort. If they won't, that's fine, i'll just have to move on to other things where someone will.
I have already got the irons in the fire anticipating just that very outcome so if anyone looses out, it isn't going to be me this time!!
Basic rule of self-employment is to sell your own value. When you cannot, either the client is an idiot or you are not good enough/offering what they want.
All business involves being prepared to say no.
Big decisions.
Thoughts...You take a top name-anything and show her a poor image and she'll have a kitten on the spot! So they are flirting with disaster there!
Best thing you can do is do what you say. Continue to turn out top-notch work and let the chips fall where they may. In fact you do not have to say a word. Your work will do that.
The temporary-photog's will die a sudden death as soon as Mortifying-Morticia gets ahold of them!
All of this takes time....All of it...Venting and such is another good way to pass it!
Kudo's to Sam on his idea of simply ignoring Ms.Dancer-cum-photog, and helping the org. focus on what they truly want! That is a good move simply because it also lets them know you care. And of course you care, not one of us likes to see crappy photos called, good-enough.
I think Most folks CAN tell a good photo from the typical crap, but many won't be swayed to make that professional choice without encouragement.
What is it I read: "You think hiring a pro is expensive? Wait till you hire an Amateur!"