Advise needed for shooting in difficult lighting

RedSox

I need advise here from all the gurus.

Basically I need to take picture of pianist that sit in front of a big bright window in a quite dark church. I have access to reasonable good fast lens/zoom with IS. I am allowed to use flash. The church ceiling is about 15-20 ft vaulted and close to white.

Shooting towards the big bright window makes it very difficult (for me). It is very hard to focus ( Yes I tried MF but it makes it hard to move and use fast lens with big aperture, the DOF is so thin that it is easily to mess up the focus). I tried AV using different metering but no good. Because of the vast contrast, the face is always too dark even with the flash. Even dial up the ISO and use fast lens, the shutter is still in low teens or single digit and hard to get steady shots even with IS lens at long end say 200mm. I tried M mode with fill in flash (flash is set to ETTL). But it is a hit or miss. Most shot still have under exposed face.

Any advise here? I think I should set camera manual and use manual flash. Am I right? How do I set up flash manually. I have EX430.

Thanks

Eric

divamum

This will probably get moved to technique, but I'll have a crack at answering it here now:

Possibility 1: Up the ISO

Possibility 2: use a tripod so low shutter speeds won't matter.

Possibility 3: Assuming neither of those will solve it, then you need to add flash.

First recommendation: go dig through the Strobist website. He has quite a few assignments and how-to's on balancing ambient with flash when backlit

Is this during a performance, or an actual "in-situ" shoot? If a shoot, then it's easy - you can just light him up close with a flash and an umbrella (or modifier or choice)

In performance it's trickier, but the principle is still the same: expose for the background in M, then add enough fill-flash to light his face using FEC to dial the power of the flash up or down as necessary. Test shots are vital (and chimp like crazy to check shots). ETTL is actually very good in these situations and what I usually use, although if you want predictable 110% control over it, then manual flash is your best bet. I'll let somebody better at "the numbers" than I am discuss possible manual settings.

Depending on the ceiling/walls you could bounce light onto his face; this is most effective if the walls are a light and/or neutral colour - if they are, for instance, panelled wood, it won't work so well as the light will take on the colour of the walls. You can compensate for this by switching to a different white balance - eg for warm wood walls, use the tungsten WB on your camera to bring it closer to neutral (since the tungsten WB essentially adds a cool filter to counter the orange of incandescent lighting) - but it's not an exact science and you'd likely need a few test shots to make it work.

The other possibility is just to expose for his face and overexpose the background; depends how important the setting is to the final image.

Good luck - and post results!

ziggy53

Yep, I moved this to the Technique forum.

You need to determine first how you want to treat the window, if it is part of the shot. In olden days I would suggest even covering the window, outdoors if necessary, to reduce the light coming from the window. In modern camera/flash combinations if you are able to use FP/HSS mode you can often moderate the ambient light by controlling ambient exposure.

A single flash may not give you all of the lighting control that you might desire so consider borrowing or renting some additional compatible flashes or consider using studio lights. If you go with studio flash you might be able to overpower the ambient while giving you the ability to use large modifiers (umbrella, softbox, etc.).

Difficult lighting really can be controlled through a number of different means, depending upon the desired results.

run_kmc

As Divamum said, if this is just a shoot and not a service/performance, off camera flash + umbrella = all you need.

If I were in this situation, the first thing I would try is setting my in camera meter to spot meter, and meter the face. I don't know what camera you have, but on many cameras you can set the spot meter to follow your focus point, which is perfect. Forget the window, let it blow out and see what you get. That could be enough right there. If it's not, try fill flash or (possibly better yet) find a good angle for direct off camera flash.

RedSox

Thanks Diva and Ziggy for the quick reply. I am reading the Strobist now. Lots of information to digest. Never played with off camera lighting so this is a bit intimidating to me. I think I will start simple with one flash gun. This is my daughter's piano recital so I don't have the luxury to play things like tripod and umbrella etc anyways. I cannot block the lights from the window either. It is at least 9ft tall.You guys are great. I will come back with more questions I am sure.

RedSox

run_kmc wrote: »

As Divamum said, if this is just a shoot and not a service/performance, off camera flash + umbrella = all you need.

If I were in this situation, the first thing I would try is setting my in camera meter to spot meter, and meter the face. I don't know what camera you have, but on many cameras you can set the spot meter to follow your focus point, which is perfect. Forget the window, let it blow out and see what you get. That could be enough right there. If it's not, try fill flash or (possibly better yet) find a good angle for direct off camera flash.

Thanks. It is performance so I cannot use umbrella. I use Canon, I don't think the spot meter follow the focus point. I tried meter the face and dial everything in manual mode but the shutter would too slow even dial into high ISO, because it is so dark in the church. So I need to use the flash to fill in order to maintain the shutter speed. I am not sure how ETTL meter the light. I kind of of want a spot meter for the flash, if you know what I mean. I think I try to set the flash to manual and try lots of shot I guess.

RedSox

divamum wrote: »

This will probably get moved to technique, but I'll have a crack at answering it here now:

Possibility 1: Up the ISO

Possibility 2: use a tripod so low shutter speeds won't matter.

Possibility 3: Assuming neither of those will solve it, then you need to add flash.

First recommendation: go dig through the Strobist website. He has quite a few assignments and how-to's on balancing ambient with flash when backlit

Is this during a performance, or an actual "in-situ" shoot? If a shoot, then it's easy - you can just light him up close with a flash and an umbrella (or modifier or choice)

In performance it's trickier, but the principle is still the same: expose for the background in M, then add enough fill-flash to light his face using FEC to dial the power of the flash up or down as necessary. Test shots are vital (and chimp like crazy to check shots). ETTL is actually very good in these situations and what I usually use, although if you want predictable 110% control over it, then manual flash is your best bet. I'll let somebody better at "the numbers" than I am discuss possible manual settings.

Depending on the ceiling/walls you could bounce light onto his face; this is most effective if the walls are a light and/or neutral colour - if they are, for instance, panelled wood, it won't work so well as the light will take on the colour of the walls. You can compensate for this by switching to a different white balance - eg for warm wood walls, use the tungsten WB on your camera to bring it closer to neutral (since the tungsten WB essentially adds a cool filter to counter the orange of incandescent lighting) - but it's not an exact science and you'd likely need a few test shots to make it work.

The other possibility is just to expose for his face and overexpose the background; depends how important the setting is to the final image.

Good luck - and post results!

Divamum. Still not quite clear what I do. So if say I want to show the window. I meter the window and dial everything in manual mode, than I use the ETTL to fill in the face automatically. Would that work?

Thanks

Eric

ziggy53

Specifically what camera and flash do you have?

divamum

As Ziggy says, it would help to know your equipment.

Divamum. Still not quite clear what I do. So if say I want to show the window. I meter the window and dial everything in manual mode, than I use the ETTL to fill in the face automatically. Would that work?

Yes, it would - you would need to adjust Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) in the camera as necessary to get the right balance and control the flash output above and beyond what ETTL thinks it "should" be. ETTL is great, but it can't think around corners or read situations the way we humans can - FEC lets us add our own opinion into the mix .

HOWEVER, honestly? Since it's your own daughter and you can probably arrange access: I'd set up a separate shoot - probably during the rehearsal - where pictures could be taken without restrictions. A flash during the performance is going to be a distraction to performer and audience alike no matter what you do (and it's why in many/most concert venues flash is not only discouraged, but actively prohibited).

If you absolutely must take pictures during the performance, I would abandon the idea of flash entirely, instead upping my ISO as fast as I can, using a tripod or monopod (more mobile) to minimize camera shake, using fastest glass to hand and shooting wide open if necessary. If you spot meter (as suggested) and/or zoom in to minimise the effect of the window light, you'll get a better exposure on her face.

Just my 2c, but fwiw.....

Debashis_A_ghosh

If flash is not allowed I would expose for the performer's face and try to get close to a shutter speed of 1/250th or faster provided the camera I am using can support a sufficiently high enough ISO. Once I have enough of those in the kitty I would experiment with some shots exposed for the windo to give a silhouette like appearance to the performer, probably a cliche close up of the piano keys with shallow DoF, a shot of her fingers on the keys while she creates accooustic magic, if possible a couple of shots showing reflections off the piano. If you have access to the place you may want to check out the lighting et all before hand by taking your daughter along to at least know the kind of numbers you want to stick to.

Cheers,
Debashis
_________________________________________________
My Flickr

RedSox

Thanks for all the response. It was very helpful. I will try to take pictures at the practice just so I can try different things may and may not be allowed during the performance.

For camera, I have a XT and a 40D. For lens, I have a 85mm f1.8, a 70-200F4 and a 70-200 F2.8 IS II at the long end. From where I going to sit, I figured anything between 70, to 135 are the best fit. 70 with portion of the piano in landscape setting and 135 for tight shot in vertical. I can borrow a 135mm f2 if I have to. But I am incline to use the F2.8 Zoom with flash, or I should mount 85mm and 135mm on two camera go with prime and not use flash? I think with two cameras and lots of things to fiddle will probably be more trouble for me because of the experience or rather inexperience.

divamum

You've got some reasonable gear there, so this should be entirely do-able. I'd still be trying to avoid flash (I hate seeing it from the stage when I'm performing, and consequently avoid it when I'm shooting in those situations; YMMV). I've shot theater stuff on an XT and while it's not the high ISO champ of some other cameras, the results aren't bad, actually, especially if you use good Noise reduction software (if you don't have LR3, then get hold of Imagenomic's Noisware community edition, which is free). The 40d isn't bad at alll, and I believe that any apparent noise is pretty easy to clean in post processing, making it quite a successful low light camera.

I'd probably put the 85 1.8 on the XT, and the 70-200is 2.8 on the 40d, and keep both around my neck - both probably set to at least ISO 800 and more likely 1600 (it's better to get a good exposure at a higher ISO than underexpose at a lower one - you'll ultlimately get LESS noise if the picture is brighter to start with, even at a higher ISO. Sounds counterintuitive, but it does hold true in practice). Spot meter on her face and take the exposure from there, either in M or Av - be especially careful not to take your exposure from the (black) piano itself, or you'll blow out any lit highlights. You'll probably be shooting at wide apertures much of the time, which makes single-shot AF - with the most appropriate focus point selected - most likely to be accurate at shallower depths of field.

If you don't add fill flash, you will probably blow out the background to expose her face. The only other possibility to get them completely balanced would probably be to bracket and combine exposures in post; it depends how important having that background exposure is to you.

The 70-200 f4 won't be much help for this shoot - you've already got the FL covered, so I'd probably leave it at home. The 135 f2 is great if you have it, but with the 85 and the zoom is probably redundant so buying or renting it probably would be fairly unnecessary; the lens which might help you out further is a 50mm 1.4 (or 1.8) - not only fast, but you can get away with a lower shutter speed at the shorter FL and then crop in as necessar/possible; I do this a LOT when shooting in poor theater/concert lighting.

HTH!

Seefutlung

Remember that the more difficult the shot ... the more opportunities one has for drama and enhanced impact of the final image. When you meter fill the viewfinder with the face and meter (making the necessary adjustments for reflectivity of the person's skin (white, black, brown, et al). Adjust ISO, shutter and aperture to match your equipment, to match your ability to handhold and to match what you previsionalize as a final image. Then shoot away checking the LCD for image impact and the histogram for exposure. You will blow out the background ... which isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the blow-out doesn't over-power the your primary focal point (in this case the pianist) and you don't lose important background information which is require to fully communicate/tell the story of the photograph. Presuming the light is directional, move left and/or right for greater shadows and lessen the strength of the back lighting. If you can, move/turn the piano a for a better angle (nothing major).

Shooting into a light source is a good way to increase the impact and drama of a photograph. Shooting into a light source also helps isolate the subject.

If the backlighting to too powerful then slap on a flash and use the flash and your main lighting and then adjust and use as a fill just to see what it looks like.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary

RedSox

divamum wrote: »

You've got some reasonable gear there, so this should be entirely do-able. I'd still be trying to avoid flash (I hate seeing it from the stage when I'm performing, and consequently avoid it when I'm shooting in those situations; YMMV). I've shot theater stuff on an XT and while it's not the high ISO champ of some other cameras, the results aren't bad, actually, especially if you use good Noise reduction software (if you don't have LR3, then get hold of Imagenomic's Noisware community edition, which is free). The 40d isn't bad at alll, and I believe that any apparent noise is pretty easy to clean in post processing, making it quite a successful low light camera.

I'd probably put the 85 1.8 on the XT, and the 70-200is 2.8 on the 40d, and keep both around my neck - both probably set to at least ISO 800 and more likely 1600 (it's better to get a good exposure at a higher ISO than underexpose at a lower one - you'll ultlimately get LESS noise if the picture is brighter to start with, even at a higher ISO. Sounds counterintuitive, but it does hold true in practice). Spot meter on her face and take the exposure from there, either in M or Av - be especially careful not to take your exposure from the (black) piano itself, or you'll blow out any lit highlights. You'll probably be shooting at wide apertures much of the time, which makes single-shot AF - with the most appropriate focus point selected - most likely to be accurate at shallower depths of field.

If you don't add fill flash, you will probably blow out the background to expose her face. The only other possibility to get them completely balanced would probably be to bracket and combine exposures in post; it depends how important having that background exposure is to you.

The 70-200 f4 won't be much help for this shoot - you've already got the FL covered, so I'd probably leave it at home. The 135 f2 is great if you have it, but with the 85 and the zoom is probably redundant so buying or renting it probably would be fairly unnecessary; the lens which might help you out further is a 50mm 1.4 (or 1.8) - not only fast, but you can get away with a lower shutter speed at the shorter FL and then crop in as necessar/possible; I do this a LOT when shooting in poor theater/concert lighting.

HTH!

Thanks Diva, this helps a lot. So I will go with 50mm f1.4 on the XT and 70-200 f2.8 IS on the 40D. XT doesn't have spot meter, so I just take whatever the 40D says. Shoot everything manual. I figured I can use the 50 f1.4 for wider shot and crop. I also plan to use it to take pictures for my daughter and her teacher after the performance. My wife will have the point'n'shoot as a backup. She use it primary for the video. The piece that she will play will last about 8 mins so I should have time to make adjustment. I will take your advice not to use flash but will bring it anyways in case I am very desperate. I actually blasted her with flash at home while she was practicing, and she said that she did not mind. But I understand there are other audience etc. So I will refrain from using it.

RedSox

Seefutlung wrote: »

Remember that the more difficult the shot ... the more opportunities one has for drama and enhanced impact of the final image. When you meter fill the viewfinder with the face and meter (making the necessary adjustments for reflectivity of the person's skin (white, black, brown, et al). Adjust ISO, shutter and aperture to match your equipment, to match your ability to handhold and to match what you previsionalize as a final image. Then shoot away checking the LCD for image impact and the histogram for exposure. You will blow out the background ... which isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the blow-out doesn't over-power the your primary focal point (in this case the pianist) and you don't lose important background information which is require to fully communicate/tell the story of the photograph. Presuming the light is directional, move left and/or right for greater shadows and lessen the strength of the back lighting. If you can, move/turn the piano a for a better angle (nothing major).

Shooting into a light source is a good way to increase the impact and drama of a photograph. Shooting into a light source also helps isolate the subject.

If the backlighting to too powerful then slap on a flash and use the flash and your main lighting and then adjust and use as a fill just to see what it looks like.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary

Thanks. I will try shooting without flash. Because the church is so dark and the window faces south, it will be a vast contrast. I am sure the background will be totally blown out. I want to make sure that NOT all picture will end up with silhouette pictures.

divamum

RedSox wrote: »

Thanks Diva, this helps a lot. So I will go with 50mm f1.4 on the XT and 70-200 f2.8 IS on the 40D. XT doesn't have spot meter, so I just take whatever the 40D says. Shoot everything manual. I figured I can use the 50 f1.4 for wider shot and crop. I also plan to use it to take pictures for my daughter and her teacher after the performance. My wife will have the point'n'shoot as a backup. She use it primary for the video. The piece that she will play will last about 8 mins so I should have time to make adjustment. I will take your advice not to use flash but will bring it anyways in case I am very desperate. I actually blasted her with flash at home while she was practicing, and she said that she did not mind. But I understand there are other audience etc. So I will refrain from using it.

Trying to remember - doesn't the XT have a partial meter? If so, use that - it'll be an improvement over evaluative/center metered.

I want to make sure that NOT all picture will end up with silhouette pictures.

Just take care what you meter from - aim for her face or a mid-toned neutral nearby and DON'T meter off the window itself. You could also - if you shoot Av - throw in some exposure compensation to be sure (and no reason you can't do all of these things. And, of course, you can also set up auto-bracketing to make SURE you get an exposure you like.)

OO - which leads me to a point I meant to mention and forgot: SHOOT RAW!!! Stock up on memory cards and shoot raw so you have the most latitude available in post. These kinds of shoots were what pushed me to raw, and boy oh boy does it make a difference. The bit of extra time processing is TOTALLY worth it for the ability to save files which would be toast had they been shot as jpgs.

I think you'll be fine with this, especially if you also have the rehearsal to snag some shots.

ziggy53

Shoot full manual mode and RAW.

Practice using both the highest shutter sync (1/250th on the 40D) and also test the FP mode. I'm thinking that if you sit close enough that FP mode will allow you to cut the ambient window light down to non-problematic levels. That's really an ideal use of FP mode.

Do build the following flash modifier. It's reasonably efficient and it puts the light at a very pleasing height above the lens.

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

Test swinging the flash and attached modifier over to the side closest to your daughter's face, i.e. if she is looking camera left, tilt the flash and modifier to the left as well.

RedSox

ziggy53 wrote: »

Shoot full manual mode and RAW.

Practice using both the highest shutter sync (1/250th on the 40D) and also test the FP mode. I'm thinking that if you sit close enough that FP mode will allow you to cut the ambient window light down to non-problematic levels. That's really an ideal use of FP mode.

Do build the following flash modifier. It's reasonably efficient and it puts the light at a very pleasing height above the lens.

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

Test swinging the flash and attached modifier over to the side closest to your daughter's face, i.e. if she is looking camera left, tilt the flash and modifier to the left as well.

Sit close enough to my daughter, means the flash gun is close enough or if I sit far but zoom enough to make the person occupy most of the frame?

Thanks for the diffuser url, I will definitely make one before I am going. I plan to shoot few during the practice with flash at least.

Also both Divamum and you mentioned RAW, I never did RAW before. I only have CS2, not sure if it can read RAW from 40D if not, Do I need to purchase plugin, or use DPP to convert RAW to JPG and than do more editing with CS2 if needed?

Thanks I have so many questions but you guys are awesome!

Seefutlung

RedSox wrote: »

Sit close enough to my daughter, means the flash gun is close enough or if I sit far but zoom enough to make the person occupy most of the frame?

Thanks for the diffuser url, I will definitely make one before I am going. I plan to shoot few during the practice with flash at least.

Also both Divamum and you mentioned RAW, I never did RAW before. I only have CS2, not sure if it can read RAW from 40D if not, Do I need to purchase plugin, or use DPP to convert RAW to JPG and than do more editing with CS2 if needed?

Thanks I have so many questions but you guys are awesome!

If you're not comfortable with only RAW then shoot both JPEG and RAW. The Latest version of DPP is a superior conversion program to CS2 (better contrast, color and sharpening).

Gary

ziggy53

RedSox wrote: »

Sit close enough to my daughter, means the flash gun is close enough or if I sit far but zoom enough to make the person occupy most of the frame?

Thanks for the diffuser url, I will definitely make one before I am going. I plan to shoot few during the practice with flash at least.

Also both Divamum and you mentioned RAW, I never did RAW before. I only have CS2, not sure if it can read RAW from 40D if not, Do I need to purchase plugin, or use DPP to convert RAW to JPG and than do more editing with CS2 if needed?

Thanks I have so many questions but you guys are awesome!

Run some tests regarding where to sit but FP mode is less efficient than just shooting at maximum sync speed, but you get much, much better control over ambient light including the southern window.

---

RAW files may be converted to Adobe DNG files, which are then understood by CS2.

Picasa may be used to sort RAW files so that you don't have to convert every file, just the "keepers".

Both programs are available as freeware and for Mac and Windows.

http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/

http://picasa.google.com/

http://picasa.google.com/mac/

adbsgicom

Bear in mind, what Ziggy calls FP mode is HSS (High Speed Sync) on Canon....