Hmmmm Buy a 20D or ?

dragon300zx

Well, I'm looking to buy another body. First thought is of course a 20D. The new body will replace the 10D as my primary camera and the 10D will be the backup. I'm almost wishing I had gone nikon because there are alot of bodies I'd like to try out that are not canon but they all take nikon lenses . You guys know me and that I shoot everything, cars, weddings, birds (every now and then), portraits, etc. The only issues I have with the 10D is the high ISO noise (the 20d is supposed to handle it better), and speed. Should I sell everything and go nikon? Or just go with instinct and buy the 20D? Should I go for one new with the kit lense, or pick up a good used one with a kit lense, or just get a body and pick up a wide angle lense else where (I really want somethign wider than 28mm)? Also what is the biggest print you guys have made off a 20D and been happy with the print quality?

NaturalEye

I upgraded to a 20D from a 10D (and kept the 10!). I think the 20D is a much better camera in a number of respects:

1. Much quicker to turn on, save files, review files.
2. Much better focusing
3. Much better high iso performance

I haven't printed bigger than 18"x12" but prints at that size are superb and I am sure it would go a lot bigger.

I think if you are largely happy with the 10D (as I was) you will love the 20D

Gary

www.naturaleye.co.uk

marlof

I think both Canon and Nikon produce excellent cameras that could help you in getting great results. It's a bit generic to say Canon 20D or "Nikon". What exactly do you have in mind when going Nikon (what body? what lenses?) ? What should it do that you can't achieve (with similar a effort/price) with your Canon gear?

dragon300zx

marlof wrote:

I think both Canon and Nikon produce excellent cameras that could help you in getting great results. It's a bit generic to say Canon 20D or "Nikon". What exactly do you have in mind when going Nikon (what body? what lenses?) ? What should it do that you can't achieve (with similar a effort/price) with your Canon gear?

The only reason for switching to (and I really mean only reason) would be to get to use the other high end bodies like the fuji bodies, some of the sigma bodies, etc that accept nikon mount lenses. Mainly to get the higher resolution sensors. I want to print big .

marlof

I think this one, printing big, has Andy written all over it.

pathfinder

We can talk about this in Mackinaw City if you aren't in need of an immediate decision, Gary.

You might want to consider a used 1D or 1DMkll versus switching to Nikon. Depending on your needs.
I have numerous prints at 13x19 from a 10D, and a 20D will certainly do as well. In a home, prints much larger than 16x24 begin to take up a lot of wall space. But galleries love bigger prints - altho the Gallery in Yosemite had a lot of 5x7 prints from Ansel Adams - not cheap tho

dragon300zx

pathfinder wrote:

We can talk about this in Mackinaw City if you aren't in need of an immediate decision, Gary.

You might want to consider a used 1D or 1DMkll versus switching to Nikon. Depending on your needs.
I have numerous prints at 13x19 from a 10D, and a 20D will certainly do as well. In a home, prints much larger than 16x24 begin to take up a lot of wall space. But galleries love bigger prints - altho the Gallery in Yosemite had a lot of 5x7 prints from Ansel Adams - not cheap tho

I'm hoping to have the new body before mackinaw. I will know timeframe for sure before I go to bed tonight (when I know the full extent of profits from tonights shoot).

I've thought about the 1d but isn't that a drop in mega pixels? Wouldn't that affect the larger prints?

mercphoto

dragon300zx wrote:

Also what is the biggest print you guys have made off a 20D and been happy with the print quality?

20D up to 20x30 inches from in-camera JPG (parameter 1) using L-glass, and that included some slight tweaking in Photoshop and then saved back as a JPG. These are racing photos (karts, motocross), not landscapes or portraits, that I have done this big. But the detail in those poster prints is fantastic. I have done portraits to 12x18 that look stunning. (have not tried a portrait larger than that, though with care, and starting with RAW, the results should be stunning). And yes, high ISO in a 20D is very much better than the 10D.

I second the opinion to get a 20D, or possibly a used 1-series.

I would like to add, however, that once you get past 6 million pixels that the quality of your glass makes a profound impact on the quality of your prints. You seem concerned about quality. Forget about any kit lenses then. If you stick with Canon, start thinking L-glass only. If you go Nikon, think only about their comparable lens line. You will tell a difference even at 8x10 print size.

Andy

gary

you can print huuuge from a 20d - not to worry about that. others have covered the major + points of the camera - and i really don't see any negatives about it. as to ff, larger sensors, you've also got the 5d - and i shot with one today, albeit briefly. see my show report in the news forum... can't advise about switching to nikon - plenty of great photogs use nikon glass and nikon/other bodies - and the quality is surely there - you've got to decide if you want a complete system swap: flashes, accessories, body, lenses..

anyhow, good luck with your choice! holler if i can be of any help mate

dragon300zx

andy wrote:

gary

you can print huuuge from a 20d - not to worry about that. others have covered the major + points of the camera - and i really don't see any negatives about it. as to ff, larger sensors, you've also got the 5d - and i shot with one today, albeit briefly. see my show report in the news forum... can't advise about switching to nikon - plenty of great photogs use nikon glass and nikon/other bodies - and the quality is surely there - you've got to decide if you want a complete system swap: flashes, accessories, body, lenses..

anyhow, good luck with your choice! holler if i can be of any help mate

When Is your 20D giong up for sale?

Andy

dragon300zx wrote:

When Is your 20D giong up for sale?

bought and sold two of them already i don't presently own one

pathfinder

dragon300zx wrote:

I'm hoping to have the new body before mackinaw. I will know timeframe for sure before I go to bed tonight (when I know the full extent of profits from tonights shoot).

I've thought about the 1d but isn't that a drop in mega pixels? Wouldn't that affect the larger prints?

Gotcha!! Every trip is a good excuse for new equipment. I do the same some times.
If my memory still serves me, I think the 1D was about 11 Mpxls, so no, not a step down re a 20D. M Reichman printed a lot of Gallery size/quality prints from a 1d, as well as a 20D and even a 10D.....

Remember - it's the shooter, not the camera. And merc's comment about glass is right - good glass is just hard to beat and is important for large images.

Andy

pathfinder wrote:

Gotcha!! Every trip is a good excuse for new equipment. I do the same some times.
If my memory still serves me, I think the 1D was about 11 Mpxls, so no, not a step down re a 20D. M Reichman printed a lot of Gallery size/quality prints from a 1d, as well as a 20D and even a 10D.....

Remember - it's the shooter, not the camera. And merc's comment about glass is right - good glass is just hard to beat and is important for large images.

:nono

1D - 4megapixels
1Ds - 11 megapixels
1D Mark II - 8 megapixels
1Ds Mark II - 16 megapixels

dragon300zx

andy wrote:

bought and sold two of them already i don't presently own one

When did I miss you selling the second one?

limbik

Just hang on for a little longer and wait for Andy to sell his new 5D

mereimage

dragon300zx wrote:

When Is your 20D giong up for sale?

Path was referring to a used 1Ds, the !D was 4MP but I have Seen stunning 16x20 prints with it,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mp aren't everything, the comment about good glass is right on......if you want to print 26x36 ect (I just made one yesterday) think glass----85f1.8, 135f2, or zoom 70-200-f2.8 0r f4 or one of the L series wide angles. Iv'e always felt Canon had the better stable of glass vs. Nikon(not that theirs is bad). You do not nrrd 16MP to print large tho we do lust after those large chips,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,By the way I think I bought Andy's last 20d..................Mereimage

dragon300zx

Well I guess I made my choice. Now I have to start saving for L glass. :cry

gluwater

dragon300zx wrote:

Well I guess I made my choice. Now I have to start saving for L glass. :cry

Yup, start saving, cause you know me and Path will want to try it out up north .

dragon300zx

gluwater wrote:

Yup, start saving, cause you know me and Path will want to try it out up north .

try what you both have 20D's already. Or better. The glass wont come for another month or so....

rich56k

RE: Size of prints from 20d...
have been shooting m/cycle drag racing w/20d and 75-300 4-5.6 usm and have seen actual 24" x 36" poster size from my orig file(2300x3500px) thru ez print (smugmugs lab) and looked great! note if you start to crop them down (w/pro acct) even if you price the big sizes, if your cropped down image size wont allow quality print the shopping cart wont allow it to be ordered (!)(pretty cool) i shoot every thing at jpeg/highest res get about 300+ on each 1gb card run a photoshop action to maintain pixel /size but reduce to jpeg 10 for speedier upload to smugmug... have had excellent results so far,
go 20d!!
rich56k

www.hooliganunderground.com
and i'm shooting with low end glass!!

dragon300zx

I'm totally regretting this purchase now..... :uhoh

limbik

dragon300zx wrote:

I'm totally regretting this purchase now..... :uhoh

Eh, why? Did you get a 20D or just buyer's remorse :grim

dragon300zx

limbik wrote:

Eh, why? Did you get a 20D or just buyer's remorse :grim

I got the 20D and it makes my 10D look like a kindergarden toy. Now I'm wanting another 20D for my backup. This is too expensive. It's so much better in so many ways. But the one thing I don't like is the way it switches between AF points. It doesn't seem to be very logical.

rutt

dragon300zx wrote:

I got the 20D and it makes my 10D look like a kindergarden toy. Now I'm wanting another 20D for my backup. This is too expensive. It's so much better in so many ways. But the one thing I don't like is the way it switches between AF points. It doesn't seem to be very logical.

It's all too logical. It just chooses the closest one that achieves focus. Often this is some irrelevant foreground element. Lots of people just enable only the center point and then focus/recompose. That works except for pretty close shots. Then for portraits or whatever choose the right AF point manually ahead of time.

The 1 Series cameras combine a much more sophisticated AF algorithm, with an optional single button override to choose a preselected point. I think it has "fuzzy logic"; I've tried to figure it out exactly for more than a year and I still can't tell you exactly how it decided to do what it does, but it's right lots more than it's wrong. It has 45 AF points and they seem to vote in some way that often finds faces (for example) even when they are not the closest element covered. Even the newly announced 5D doesn't have this.

Given the difference in size and price, the 20D is a very good value. Knowing how the AF system works will help you use it effectively.

dragon300zx

rutt wrote:

It's all too logical. It just chooses the closest one that achieves focus. Often this is some irrelevant foreground element. Lots of people just enable only the center point and then focus/recompose. That works except for pretty close shots. Then for portraits or whatever choose the right AF point manually ahead of time.

The 1 Series cameras combine a much more sophisticated AF algorithm, with an optional single button override to choose a preselected point. I think it has "fuzzy logic"; I've tried to figure it out exactly for more than a year and I still can't tell you exactly how it decided to do what it does, but it's right lots more than it's wrong. It has 45 AF points and they seem to vote in some way that often finds faces (for example) even when they are not the closest element covered. Even the newly announced 5D doesn't have this.

Given the difference in size and price, the 20D is a very good value. Knowing how the AF system works will help you use it effectively.

Nah what I'm talking about is when your selecting one AF point. You can pick and choose which one you want to use for focusing. The order in which they have you select points is rather blah.

rutt

dragon300zx wrote:

Nah what I'm talking about is when your selecting one AF point. You can pick and choose which one you want to use for focusing. The order in which they have you select points is rather blah.

That sounds like something you'll get used to. I think there is a way to preregister a particular AF point and switch to it quickly. Does anyone know?

DavidTO

dragon300zx wrote:

Nah what I'm talking about is when your selecting one AF point. You can pick and choose which one you want to use for focusing. The order in which they have you select points is rather blah.

You use the toggle dealie above the wheel thing and it goes right to the focus point you want. Click it and it toggles between centered and auto.

rutt

DavidTO wrote:

You use the toggle dealie above the wheel thing and it goes right to the focus point you want. Click it and it toggles between centered and auto.

Nice to know. Still no competition for the way it works on 1-Series cameras with PF 18 set to 2. Once you do that, the otherwise useless WB button right under your thumb (for both shutters) becomes an instant toggle between full AF with all 45 points and a preselected point (usually center). As long as you hold down the button, the full AF system is defeated and limited to your preselected AF point. Release the button and it reverts. It's so convenient, I use all the time while I'm shooting and really miss on the 20D.

gluwater

So where are the pics?

dragon300zx

gluwater wrote:

So where are the pics?

They will be here eventually.

Mitchell

As a Nikonian, I can't really suggest you switch to Nikon at this time. The Fuji and Sigma bodies you talk about certainly have their following, but there are a lot of complaints about the speed and buffers of these cameras. If you go Nikon, your only option at this point is to get a D2X. Nikon presently has a gap in their line between the D70 (6.1mp) and the D2X (12mp). They really don't offer anything comparable to the 20D. Reports of the D200 are circulating around. No delivery date yet, but most expect it's arrival before Christmas. This may be a 12mp, smaller, slower version of the D2X.

If you have Canon glass. Stick with Canon if you must buy a new body now.