Newbie alert!! Gymnastics!
My girls start gymnastics in 1 week. Thats right I said gilrs! Level 7 and level 5. Please help! I want good pictures. Here is my equipment:
Canon EOS Rebel XTi
Canon EF-S 1:3.5-5.6 IS 18-55mm
Canon EF-S 1:4-5.6 III 75-300mm
On order - Canon EF 85 mm f/1.8 USM Medium Telephoto Lens
I have been granted permission to get close to the girls because I am the website admin and I will be taking pics to post on the web. Will any of my lenses work or do I need to get something different.
No flash allowed.
THanks
Canon EOS Rebel XTi
Canon EF-S 1:3.5-5.6 IS 18-55mm
Canon EF-S 1:4-5.6 III 75-300mm
On order - Canon EF 85 mm f/1.8 USM Medium Telephoto Lens
I have been granted permission to get close to the girls because I am the website admin and I will be taking pics to post on the web. Will any of my lenses work or do I need to get something different.
No flash allowed.
THanks
0
Comments
Welcome to the fun world of photographing gymnastics! This is what started me in the hobby, and is what I enjoy most.
First thing's first: photographing gymnastics is HARD. Most gyms have terrible light, you're not allowed to use ANY type of flash, even the auto-focus assist beam is outlawed. There is usually chalk dust in the air, and it's hard to get close. You're lucky if they give you special access to the floor, but don't count on it for competitions. The rules are pretty strict.
Here is a GREAT thread to read through, with lots of comments on technique and equipment: http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=130105
As to your question, here are my thoughts based on experience:
* The 85mm is the only lens that is going to work for you. The other lenses will be okay for when the gymnasts are standing still, otherwise everything is going to be blurry.
* 2.8 aperture is the smallest you should go. A 70-200mm f/2.8 lens works pretty good if your camera can handle the noise at ISO 3200. I don't know anything about your camera so I can't comment there. I shoot Nikon and my body does pretty well with high ISOs, so 2.8 works pretty good.
* Shutter speed of 500. You can sometimes go slower, but from experience you need 500 or faster to stop motion.
* Practice, practice, practice. Knowing each routine and where the gymnast will be when is important to get the right shots.
Read that thread I linked above. It really has some great info in it and is what I used to start me out. This last season I had a great time taking photos with an entry level camera (Nikon D5000) and rented lenses (used lensrentals.com). I practiced a bit, and then the first meet of the season was a great success: http://www.adamcartwright.com/Sports/Gymnastics/Gymnastics-2010-Meet-Loveland/13936023_yrVaJ#1023924841_E7E2r. I then upgraded to a D7000 and purchased my own 70-200, and found the noise performance at ISO 3200 to be outstanding: http://www.adamcartwright.com/Sports/Gymnastics/Gymnastics-2010-State-Level-4/15097630_LAbJe#1128670938_e4JQU. I started selling photos to parents to help offset the equipment cost, and found most parents were more than happy to pay for the high quality photos I was able to get compared to their efforts (sold almost 500 photos this past season).
Good luck!
I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.
The 85 1.8 is the only lens that he has a chance of getting decent shutter speeds with in a poorly light gym.
http://www.knippixels.com
Stephanie
Keeping your focus on the gymnasts and not the background can be challenging as they are moving quickly
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/Cr8ingWaves-Photography/119946782908?ref=ts
Having been in your shoes, just 3 years ago now.....and started what turned into a pretty large thread here on DG....I'll suggest the following:
1) Sell all your lenses except the 85 prime. You'll love that one.
2) Sell that camera, and at a minimum, buy a nice used 50D using the money from your lenses and the XTi body.
I've stood next to parents with the 40D and lesser cameras, and owned a 40D myself for a few of the very first meets I shot. I'll tell you right now, shooting gymnastics is about having the ability to run up in the high ISO's, having the ability to stop motion with shudder speeds above 300-something (depending on what event, and what level you're shooting), and it's also about high frame rates in burst mode.
The parents with the 40D and lesser cameras are really "suffering" when it's time to capture gymnastics photos. Their focusing times are long, so the action is being missed, they can't run up in the high ISO's, so the motion is blurry due to the slow shutter speeds, and the frame rates and card write speeds are so slow, the cameras sound like a plastic meat grinder as they struggle to get 2 or 3 frames per second.....if that.
I've only been able to afford a used 50D that was $950 at the time. IMO, it's on the ragged edge of barely making it. I decided to put my money into glass, and just push the 50D to it's limits.
Give that monster thread a read. I know it's gotten pretty long, and we get off track talking about, and making posters, and slide shows, etc., but there's also some great advice in there from all the pros here. I learned a ton, and remain very thankful for all the help I received.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
1) shoot manual exposure. Don't shoot in a mode where the camera chooses the exposure as the objects in the background or the leo colors will affect exposure. Lighting is bad, but for a given apparatus it's consistent. Set the exposure for the FACE to be exposed properly. That's key. Having the faces exposed properly is key.
2) Use center point only - it's the only point on your camera with the capability for decent low light sports. So, select center point only. The key is you have to keep that center point on an area of contrast - if they have a solid blue leo - you want to have the focus point at neck line or leg line - some point of contrast. It's great if they have good contrast in the uniform - but stay away from areas that are solid color.
3) jpeg vs. raw. With newer cameras, RAW is the way to go. With your camera, the buffer handling isn't that great. But to shoot jpeg you MUST get the white balance set properly in-camera. Don't rely on auto WB. My preference is to set a custom WB using a white/gray card. When you take the 'WB' shot though - set your camera up to use a shutter speed of 1/60. DONT use fast shutter speeds. Using a slow shutter speed for the WB image shot allows the lights to cycle and gives you an AVERAGE temperature reading. That will give you the best WB. If you use a fast shutter speed for the WB shot you tend to get more of a skewed reading.
3b. Sometimes RAW is a must. As mentioned above, the types of lights used in many gyms go through a 'cycle' which changes temperature. In most gyms the lights are close enough together that the field of light from each overlaps with another. That's why the 'average' WB works. In some gyms though, the lights are spaced too far apart. When that happens, the light on your subject is dominated by a single light source - so it cycles. That makes an in-camera WB impossible. How will you know when this happens? Simple - after you set your custom (or pre-set WB value), take a 5 shot burst of a gymnast or empty apparatus and review the images. You'll see immediately if they all have a different color tone. In that case, you need to shoot RAW as each image will have to have it's own WB setting.
4. positioning - you need to be sure your gymnast fills 2/3 of the vertical frame IN CAMERA. So you need to be fairly close. If your subject is filling less of the frame you're going to see focus accuracy drop significantly. You also want a final image where the subject fills the frame and at high ISOs with your camera you cannot crop. Now, you want the FACE of the gymnast - so position yourself accordingly.
5. forget tumbling. Don't waste time/energy trying to capture tumbling passes on the floor. It's exceedingly difficult and quite frankly at that level their form is really poor so even when you get good focus and freeze the action the pictures just don't look good. Look for the poses on the floor. Good news is - same routine so you always know where they'll be. Bad news is they tend to rush through them so you must be quick. The little jumps are good too. By far, beam gives you the most opportunity though. Bars - a little bit, but not much until they're doing more release work.
That comment about trying to shoot floor tumbling passes is right on the money. I still do it, depending on which way the athlete is tumbling, and once in a while I'll get an interesting shot.
Say "yes" to faces! As suggested above. In fact, my favorite mantra is; "If I can't see the face, I don't take the shot." IMO, without the face, the shots just become "butt and crotch" and are baaaaad.
Getting out on the floor: I've never asked, because IMO, no gym is going to let you, unless you are USAG Safety Certified. Plus, if they let me out there, how's the professional photog going to feel. Pretty mad, I'm guessing. And if I get to go out, don't the 500 other parents that are there too? That'd be fun.
Manual mode: I didn't mention it, because to me, it sort of goes without saying, and you'd read about it in the other thread. But yes, only shoot manual. Be able to make adjustments for shutter speed and ISO without removing the camera from your eye. So practice a million times at home and memorize the finger positions and movements. This will pay you back a thousand times over, trust me.
Focus points: I only shoot with the center focus point alive. The 50D only has 9 (lame) focus points, so the gymnast is always in between several of them, and not being hit by any of them. So, I keep the center one active and use it as a gun sight.
Focus action: Thumb push focusing is the only way to fly. There are hundreds of times per meet where I need to freeze the focus, and then take photos. If my 50D couldn't do this, I'd be screwed. It makes the camera super fast, especially in burst mode and allows me to get great vault shots, both from the side, and head on, as well as bars, beam, tumbling passes on floor.
White Balance: I don't set it. Maybe I should. I just leave it in AWB and have never had an issue because I shoot RAW. I'd never want to shoot in Jpeg because there are just too many needed adjustments in post processing. I've saved a lot of marginal photos in RAW.
Burst mode: High speed burst.......love it, use it, embrace it. You can get some great photos.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
After stalking the other gymnastics thread and this one forever... I still failed :cry
I know, I know.... I need that 70-200 2.8 but it's totally out of my reach.
Attached, I hope, is a pic from my kid's first meet this season. I've only imported the raw file and converted to jpeg and turned up the brightness a smidge in Photoshop.
Maybe I'll do better at the next meet
~L.
Here are a few I took this past weekend.
And my attempt at some PS magic:
LCat: You don't need the expensive lens. Spend your money on the 3 primes that I list in my signature. They're actually better in low light than the 2.8f lenses. Get as close to the action as you can get without interfering with the athletes, or other parents with cameras. The closer you get, the better your photos. Keep your camera in Manual mode, keep the f-stop low (wide open lens, or nearly wide open) and keep your shutter speed above 320th. Run your ISO up over 1,000. Invest in your photos. It's the only chance you have at capturing these once in a life time memories. If money's tight, shop in the used market, there are some great deals to be had.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
My budget allowed:
Nikon 5100 that came with 18-55 3.5-5.6 and 55-300 4.5-5.6
Sigma 50 1.4
I love your pictures! Were you close or did you have that 2.8 lens?
I'm reading and reading but when I get to the gym I draw a complete blank and get all flustered....hahaha!
I've learned everything I know about doing gymnastics photos by reading austinado16's posts and from my own trial and error. This forum has been a great resource.
Your D5100 is a good camera and will shoot really well in the gym at up to ISO 3200. Add a little noise reduction in post processing and you should be able to have some great shots.
The vault photo above I used a 50mm f/1.8, and the others are with a 70-200 f/2.8. Like austinado16 says, your best choice will be with some nice primes. When I'm up to it, I rent an 85mm f/1.4 and have been really impressed with it.
If all you have is the sigma 50mm, then do what you can to get as close as you can. Your other two lenses are just going to be too slow to get the results you're looking for.
- Get so that you can operate the camera's shutter speed and ISO settings, on the fly, without looking at them.
- Get used to keeping both eyes open when you shoot so that you can see what else is going on, as well as what you're shooting.
- Get used to the timing of each event and watch for areas of both "peak motion" and "stop motiion" as those will be your prime shooting times. In fact, sit and watch without the camera, and in head, take photos. Like on the beam, you can be watching, learning the routine, and eventually you'll be thinking to yourself, "And raises her leg high...*click*......and drops into her scale......*click*......" Learn each routine like that, you'll start getting shots.
- Practice at the meet, while your team and other teams are warming up. A) you can get some great shots that you might miss during the actual judged routine.
you can take your time making setting adjustments, so that your photos are their best. C) you can try out different shooting positions, and play around with how close you want to be, etc.
- Think in terms of, "I need to stop motion." That means you need the shutter at 320th or better, in my opinion. So that's your home base, and then you make your other adjustments around that. The next thing to think about is how deep do you want your focus to be. It only needs to be a couple feet deep, at the most. That means, f-stops that are low, but maybe not all the way at the widest the lens will go. For example, a 1.4 lens, you might try 1.8 and 2.0, or maybe 2.5. That's enough to get most of the gymnast's body inside the focus depth and still blur the background nicely. Once you have those 2 settings, you adjust your ISO to get the light meter somewhere near the middle. Then take a bunch of practice shots, review them, and see what you think.
- Think faces, faces, faces and try to position where you can get faces, and for the most part, don't waste your time on shots that done include the face. Sure, like that great vault sequence above, and the excellent beam jump shot, there are times when not having a face is going to be just fine. Sometimes, that's all you can get, due to how the meet is set up.
- Don't miss out on the great candids that are available. Shots of them around the chalk buckets, talking with a coach, preping for an event, and even really close shots of just their face and upper body or even tighter, can be really great. Those shots show off the power that they are producing.....like when they grab the bars, or the beam.
- When shooting vault, set the camera to manual focus mode, and focus on the middle the the table. Or if you can't see that, focus on the support leg under the table. You know the gymnast is going to pass through that focus plane, so there's no reason to have the camera try to keep up with that movement. Park your focus there, and when you hear their feet pound the spring board, hold down the trigger. You'll wind up with 4 or 5 great shots.
- When shooting bars, set the focus point on the bar, where you know they'll be grabbing. This will allow a few good shots and keep the camera from looking at the back wall.
- If your camera can have a seperate button turned on for focusing only, activate that. On the Canon's, we can turn on a rear "thumb push" focusing button. That removes the focusing feature from the shutter button and allows us to park the focus on one point, release that button, and then just take pictures. A fantastic feature for vault and bars where the gymnast stays in the same focus plane, but moves around so much that the camera wouldn't normally keep up.
- Consider turning off all focus points, except for the center point. This will keep the camera from looking at the entire scene and trying to figure out what you want in focus. Just turn on that center point, and use it like a gun sight.
Since you have a 50 that's good, get an 85 prime next. Get a 28 prime also, as that will come in handy for team shots and up close candids before and after the meet. Those 3 lenses can be all you need. Sure, the zooms are nice, and there's a place for them, buy you can live well on the primes.Anyway, keep practicing. When I started 3 seasons ago, I took my camera to the gym often. I'm sure a lot of people thought I was a dork, or was showing off my new toy. I didn't care, I was there to learn.
Remember this mantra: "I want to stop motion, with enough depth to get most of her body, and enough light that I can see her." Make your settings accordingly.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8
My kid is repeating L5 (maybe doing a few L6 invitationals later in the season) so I know these routines well.
The meet was last Sunday and I panicked with a thousand thoughts running through my head, "oh yeah crank up ISO, oh and shutter speed above 500 oh and aperture etc. etc. etc." I also thought that I could get away with that 18-55 lens with the ISO cranked up to 6400....yeah, I have a noisy mess.
I actually fumbled the camera so much I'm surprised I didn't drop it.
Thank you so much for the help! I will have to re-read all this about 50 more times....
Don't get in a panic about this. It's 3 simple settings, so don't let them own you. Change them, play with them, try different stuff, change back to where you were, change them again, keep shooting. Get so you can change on the fly and you'll be much happier with the results I think.
Re: shutter speed, I won't say "never," but it's extremely rare that I'm up over the 500th mark. I'm usually at 320 or 400, and in a really well lit gym, during a mid-afternoon session, I might get 500th for a while. I'm shooting L6, and last year was the 2nd year of L5, but I've shot L7,8,9 and 10, and done fine in the 320-500 range.
BTW, if you don't have Noiseware Professional, I'd recommend it. Others like Noise Ninja, I just haven't tried it, so I can't comment on it.
Canon 7D... Canon 70-200/2.8L IS... Canon 28-70/2.8L... Canon 135/f2L... Canon 85/1.8... Canon 50/1.4... Canon 28/1.8