TFCD - how many to offer

GerryDavid

Hello, was wondering what the industry standard is for TFCD. I did a search first but didnt find the answer, but my searching skills on forums is lacking.

I am talking to a couple different models to build both of our portfolios, and they both want TFCD. I dont want to give all of the shots to them because I wont have time to process that many pictures for free.

Also, it would seem my model release is not suited for this sort of thing. It focuses on giving me permission and explaining my rights, but it doesnt explain the rights of the model. Does anyone have a link to a good photographer/model release?

Angelo

the very nature of releases in such an instance is quid pro quo; you get the rights to use the images / so does the model (structured as part of the "for valuable consideration" clause)

GerryDavid

But the question is, what is the normal amount of photos to give on a cd?

Mark Dickinson

GerryDavid wrote: »

But the question is, what is the normal amount of photos to give on a cd?

GET SMUGMUG:) then you can digitally share them and be green and save time. Give your best out. best of the best that you want to use. It reflects your work to have the 'ah not so good shots' out there. The models/people looking for TFP are not those who respect typically the best of the best presentation they want all of them usually and post the same photo over and over and over in duplication when they use them for their OMP, FB, MS, or other online page.

GerryDavid

I have smugmug, and I do not want to process 100 images.

What is the industry standard for TFCD? 5 processed prints per hour of photography?

and itll be email not a cd more than likely.

Mark Dickinson

It's your discression on what to release, but just make it in your model release when you go over details, will release the best of the best. I would say atleast 1 per pose not per hour. I dont know of a standard. (most want them all)

Angelo

GerryDavid wrote: »

But the question is, what is the normal amount of photos to give on a cd?

sometimes a full day of shooting results in only one great headshot. there is no "norm"

whatever works for both of you

GerryDavid

Normally the amount of pictures is agreed upon before the shoot, not after. So even if there is only one good shot, you still have to provide the agreed upon number of pictures.

kdog

GerryDavid wrote: »

Normally the amount of pictures is agreed upon before the shoot, not after. So even if there is only one good shot, you still have to provide the agreed upon number of pictures.

Normally? So suddenly you're an expert?

Personally, I think Angelo had the correct answer. You get what you get. Unless you're very sure of your skills, ie, professional, I wouldn't commit to particular number in writing. The LAST thing in the world you want is to release some mediocre photos credited to you just to make some arbitrary number.

What I tell my models is that you will get selected touched up photos. Period. After the shoot, I review the shots and select the ones that I feel are candidates for final editing. If there are not too many, then THOSE are the ones I edit and deliver. If there are a lot of shots (which is usually the case) then I build a proofs gallery for the model on my Smugmug account. The gallery is protected, with a medium maximum size (around 600 pixels tall), watermarked, and locked down tight against right-click, sharing, etc. That way she cannot grab them for Facebook or whatever. They are proofs, and not to use. Then I let the model review those shots and decide which ones she'd like touched up. Depending on how many she picks, I may tell her that's too many, and to pare it down to a dozen, or whatever I feel is reasonable. I create another smugmug gallery and put the final shots there which she can download, share, and I'll do the same. You could do essentially the same process through email as well.

Mark Dickinson

Don't put a number then, just say approved ones

GerryDavid

Not an expert, thats why im asking how many is the normal amount, which everyone seems to be avoiding. But I do know you talk about terms before a shoot. The model wants to know he or she will get something out of a shoot, otherwise I could give them nothing after and say they didnt turn out. Mean while they have wasted their time. And if you know what your doing, you should be able to get a number of usable shots from a session. If you dont know how to use a camera, then I can see how you could get nothing.

Mark Dickinson

What I am trying to do is tell you that you will give him/her one per pose that way it limits your editing ability. If you can't get one moderately usable one per pose then maybe try a different model. You could also say Ill give you 100 of them, and he/she expects you to edit all 100 and spend your time. In the modeling world you will never provide 100, 20, 10, maybe two poses on a full shoot. sometimes 2-4hrs of shooting will provide 'the one'

I say the same before. The approved ones, ones you think are good. no number. Noone's avoiding, I particularly give a number, because if you are off then they expect that number, even a free one. how long are you shooting, how many do you typically shoot in a session, how many do you reject that are blinks etc. There's variables there that can't be answered.

Glort

GerryDavid wrote: »

But the question is, what is the normal amount of photos to give on a cd?

It is exactly the same as the length of a piece of string divided by MM.
( or inches if that is the measurement your locality uses).

As someone that has been doing this 20+ Years, I can assure you your outlook on useage, licencing and other concerns are not at all compaitble with the ideal of TFP and as such you will save yourself and the people you want to work with endless problems and hassel if you just pay models for thier time and and retain all the rights yourself.
You can then sell them any prints you want under your prefered conditions/ licencing/conditions.

I gaurantee this is the only way that you and anyone you work with will avoid trouble and discontent in working together.

You are also going to be extemely dissapointed and unhappy if you are talking or soucing models from the net. Even if you know these people, YOu absoloutley have to get a far better grip on the way things in that little playground work before you even comtemplate doing this.
The fact you are asking and then becoming frustrated at the question you are asking shows that you have no cloe as to waht your getting into and it's going to cause you a lot of problems.

I know you will think you will bo OK and can handle it etc and will probably be indignat at what I'm telling you but I can gaurantee you I know what I'm saying to be true.

GerryDavid

Mark Dickinson wrote: »

What I am trying to do is tell you that you will give him/her one per pose that way it limits your editing ability. If you can't get one moderately usable one per pose then maybe try a different model. You could also say Ill give you 100 of them, and he/she expects you to edit all 100 and spend your time. In the modeling world you will never provide 100, 20, 10, maybe two poses on a full shoot. sometimes 2-4hrs of shooting will provide 'the one'

I say the same before. The approved ones, ones you think are good. no number. Noone's avoiding, I particularly give a number, because if you are off then they expect that number, even a free one. how long are you shooting, how many do you typically shoot in a session, how many do you reject that are blinks etc. There's variables there that can't be answered.

I ended up quoting 5 processed images from each set of pics, with two different sets being done. I estimate each set will last about an hour and each one will be at a different location. I believe the quote was 3 processed and printed sheets back when it was TFP's, so 5 seemed fair. Now if they agree to that, only time will tell. She hasn't responded yet.

Glort wrote: »

It is exactly the same as the length of a piece of string divided by MM.
( or inches if that is the measurement your locality uses).

As someone that has been doing this 20+ Years, I can assure you your outlook on useage, licencing and other concerns are not at all compaitble with the ideal of TFP and as such you will save yourself and the people you want to work with endless problems and hassel if you just pay models for thier time and and retain all the rights yourself.
You can then sell them any prints you want under your prefered conditions/ licencing/conditions.

I gaurantee this is the only way that you and anyone you work with will avoid trouble and discontent in working together.

You are also going to be extemely dissapointed and unhappy if you are talking or soucing models from the net. Even if you know these people, YOu absoloutley have to get a far better grip on the way things in that little playground work before you even comtemplate doing this.
The fact you are asking and then becoming frustrated at the question you are asking shows that you have no cloe as to waht your getting into and it's going to cause you a lot of problems.

I know you will think you will bo OK and can handle it etc and will probably be indignat at what I'm telling you but I can gaurantee you I know what I'm saying to be true.

And how do you get a better grip on the way things are done with out being involved? Live and learn. And how will I be disappointed and unhappy because I dont know what the industry standard is for processed images for TFCD?

kdog

Glort wrote: »

It is exactly the same as the length of a piece of string divided by MM.
( or inches if that is the measurement your locality uses).

As someone that has been doing this 20+ Years, I can assure you your outlook on useage, licencing and other concerns are not at all compaitble with the ideal of TFP and as such you will save yourself and the people you want to work with endless problems and hassel if you just pay models for thier time and and retain all the rights yourself.
You can then sell them any prints you want under your prefered conditions/ licencing/conditions.

I gaurantee this is the only way that you and anyone you work with will avoid trouble and discontent in working together.

You are also going to be extemely dissapointed and unhappy if you are talking or soucing models from the net. Even if you know these people, YOu absoloutley have to get a far better grip on the way things in that little playground work before you even comtemplate doing this.
The fact you are asking and then becoming frustrated at the question you are asking shows that you have no cloe as to waht your getting into and it's going to cause you a lot of problems.

I know you will think you will bo OK and can handle it etc and will probably be indignat at what I'm telling you but I can gaurantee you I know what I'm saying to be true.

This seems awfully pessimistic to me. I've done tons of TFCD shoots with models that I've met over the internet and had very fruitful collaborations with all of them. The OP is building a portfolio. Precisely, what is the problem here?

angevin1

GerryDavid, Why not simply post over on Model Mayhem and ask: What is the avg. number of photos you give to TFCD Models?

Mine tend to run 20-30 ish for about 4 hours work. For me there is no magic number. If I get three shots I really, really like, then I am happy. And I've had no complaints on the number of images offered.

Mark Dickinson

Some people have bad experiences. I notice a lot of TFP in my area are all swimsuit or partial nudes. TFP is a real bore, its like doing band shoots, but it does help build skills (not a portfolio) I still have people that are definitely not industry standards trying to do tfp. But I think the photog that has had a bad experience with tfp, is probably going to be apprehensive of doing them again because of expectations. It sounds like you are going to do 2 different shoots, then give her 10 photos.

I wonder if the response will be, "oh you don't give me all of the photos on disc?" I'm curious to see if thats what she says, I used to get those responses all the time

kdog

Mark Dickinson wrote: »

TFP is a real bore, its like doing band shoots, but it does help build skills (not a portfolio)

What!?

Glort

GerryDavid wrote: »

And how do you get a better grip on the way things are done with out being involved? Live and learn.

Well Reading forums, educating yourself ( beyond a search for a single Question and getting a handle on things before you go into something is one way.

As for live and learn, I certainly hope you don't go into practicing Medicine or Designing Nucelar reactors!

And how will I be disappointed and unhappy because I dont know what the industry standard is for processed images for TFCD?

That is merely an example of ALL the other things you don't know, not the single problem itself.
Anyway, seems you have answered your own question and worked something out so good luck with it and let us know when you have posted the results up.

Glort

kdog wrote: »

This seems awfully pessimistic to me. I've done tons of TFCD shoots with models that I've met over the internet and had very fruitful collaborations with all of them.

Then you are in a distinct minority group and have been most fortunate.
In some areas Models are rather exceptional to the way they are in most others. I met some great models throught eh net as well and worked with them to create some fantastic shots but the good models in my area are outnumbered 50:1 by the clueless bimbos.

If the reverse is true for you, You're very lucky.

The OP is building a portfolio. Precisely, what is the problem here?

I would suggest a complete lack of understanding of the attitudes and general behaviour in that playground coupled with the OP's apparent personal standards and prefered way of working which I see will lead him to being very frustrated and dissapointed.

Glort

angevin1 wrote: »

GerryDavid, Why not simply post over on Model Mayhem and ask: What is the avg. number of photos you give to TFCD Models?

Wouldn't even have to post.
There is a thread like that about every 2 weeks. A search would turn up the answer which is as I suggested, Exactly the length of a piece of string!

No doubt some reasearch time on mm would be hugely enlightening though!

kdog

Glort wrote: »

I met some great models throught eh net as well and worked with them to create some fantastic shots but the good models in my area are outnumbered 50:1 by the clueless bimbos.

If the reverse is true for you, You're very lucky.

Well, I do my homework on them. Look at their existing portfolios, see how well they communicate on line, etc. I tend to pick the ones that seem high energy, have ideas, and know how to construct a sentence. I'm guess I'm actually pretty selective in retrospect, but I never really thought about it. I've had models I've shot two or three times. It's been a learning experience and portfolio builder for all concerned.

Glort

Mark Dickinson wrote: »

TFP is a real bore, its like doing band shoots, but it does help build skills (not a portfolio)

Well I'm not sure about it being a bore in the sense I'm thinking of the term but there is no doubt it can be incredibly frustrating, inefficent, time wasting and even expensive.

As for not building a Portfolio, to the most part I also agree with this.
There are so many models whom are nothing more than bored people that got a rush of blood to the head and signed up on a website that gave them a description with no qualification or suitability whatsoever.

Generally these people hook up with people with a camera of similar or less knowledge and experience and off they go. If they are the exceptions, they will produce some very pretty pictures but I wonder how many of them actually have seen a real agency models folio let alone have any idea of what makes a good Portfolio shot!

I still have people that are definitely not industry standards trying to do tfp.

95% of web models are not industry standard, that's why they are on the web. The agencies can't use them.

Very few professional model will do TFP and the ones that will sensibly only work with established Photographers that can show they have the skills and experience, not the weekend hackers and GWC's using their camera to get a free private Strip show.

Most of the ones that will do TFP have no REAL modeling experience. They work with the hackers and it's a case of the blind leading the blind. You only have to see what people post up on model sites and how others rave about garbage pics to see what a low standard the web modeling circus has and how totaly and utterly unrelated it is to real world modeling.

GerryDavid

Originally Posted by angevin1
GerryDavid, Why not simply post over on Model Mayhem and ask: What is the avg. number of photos you give to TFCD Models?
Wouldn't even have to post.
There is a thread like that about every 2 weeks. A search would turn up the answer which is as I suggested, Exactly the length of a piece of string!

No doubt some reasearch time on mm would be hugely enlightening though!

The model has done some work on MM before and said she gets all the pictures on CD. After looking around MM I do have to wonder what % are pros and what % are weekend warriors. With that in mind I am hesitant to consider the advice there on this subject.

Still no word from the model, I guess she wasnt happy with not getting all the pics high res on a cd after. oh well.

GerryDavid

Glort wrote: »

As for live and learn, I certainly hope you don't go into practicing Medicine or Designing Nucelar reactors!

Lets see here, isnt alot of medicine and science a live and learn or trial and error thing? Do some research, then apply it and check the results, do some figuring and try again for better results. For example the incandescent light bulb, it took Edison something like 9 or 10 thousand attempts before he got it right. live and learn.

Hopefully my research on that one is accurate.

At least with photography, someones life isnt on the line like with practicing medicine, so its hard to compare those two fields.

angevin1

GerryDavid wrote: »

The model has done some work on MM before and said she gets all the pictures on CD.

Still no word from the model, I guess she wasnt happy with not getting all the pics high res on a cd after. oh well.

I agree. I've read that before, where they ask for that sort of thing. And I've never given all the shots. I suspect they do that because the girl on the next page did that, and so on. The last 'model' Shoot I did, I wanted to hire versus trade for various reasons. During the vetting process I was surprised how many women were instantly turned off when I mentioned the word video. As if Video was some weird creature. Trading is good practice. Nothing new about it nothing bad about it. It is still about people.

Mark Dickinson

I figured. She wants every photo to post on her profile over and over with a mm difference of change between the two. Quantity is not qual. Too bad craigslist shut down the adult section lol. There's plenty of fish out there to fin another for building skills you might try to find a photogenic friend who you can test with that isn't thinking model and her career portfolio of tfp and insatiable need for all the pics. Narcisissm is a pain in the arse.

kdog

angevin1 wrote: »

I agree. I've read that before, where they ask for that sort of thing. And I've never given all the shots. I suspect they do that because the girl on the next page did that, and so on.

I think it's mostly a reaction to getting stiffed in the past by shady "photographers", who never give them their photos. Apparently that happens quite a bit. Having good feedback and references should counter that. It comes down to a matter of trust. If they don't trust you to honor the TFCD agreement, then you probably shouldn't work with them in the first place.

Glort

kdog wrote: »

It comes down to a matter of trust. If they don't trust you to honor the TFCD agreement, then you probably shouldn't work with them in the first place.

Very True.
I am aware though that there is a problem with shooters giving models the images they agreed to. I have read of some that have refused because the models represented themselves or their abilities in vastly different context to what they were able to deliver on the day.
I have had that happen to me many times and while I can't say that I agree with the practice, given the the complete alienation of the modeling world from common manners, decency and moral standards, it's hardly surprising.

It seems one side has no concern or respect for the other and that is recprocated so often that it's a wonder anything is achieved at all.

Working with people that they have reservations on getting images from is like the " Models" that insist on a Chaperone " for their saftey".

If someone feels that they need a bodygaurd with them to protect them from me commiting an assult, What in the hell are they even thinking going anywhere near someone that they believe is so dangerous?
If they think I would commit a crime against them, why would they think that I would'nt take out the Chaperone and then attack them?
The few times I did allow Chaperones or escorts on shoots before I woke up what a bad idea that was, If I was going to attack anyone it would have been them well before the model!

The modeling world really is a parralell universe and at complete odds to simple logic.

I get the feeling in this case that there may have been other terms and conditions that the models either didn't understand or were too far from the norm for her liking or it simply could have been that the wind changed direction or something shiny caught their attention and they forgot about everything else.

I found out on the weekend that a couple of favourite places are supposed to be torn down to make way for apartments in the next couple of weeks ( although I have no way of confirming or dismissing that) but either way I want to get some shoots in before it may be too late and as such have lined up 3-4 TFP models to get some new images with.

So far The arrangement I am offering has not been an issue and never has been in the past.

I'll see how many come through and how many flake.

angevin1

kdog wrote: »

It comes down to a matter of trust. If they don't trust you to honor the TFCD agreement, then you probably shouldn't work with them in the first place.

Though it may not be the norm, I cannot think of a shoot I've done where I didn't meet them first. So yeah, Trust!

slpollett

How many images to give on a TFCD really is up to you as the photographer, but you should be upfront with your model and insure that both of you understand and agree to expectations.

My daughter is a model (with a licensed agent who does not allow his models to be on OMP or MM). We get many different photographers who work with our Agency and offer TFCD from time to time. Each one has a slightly different approach to what is offered. As long as all parties agree up front, it shouldn't matter if your offer is different from another photographers.

Just from my experience (as a model's Mom), here's what we usually get. One photographer will generally offer a block of time, tell us how many outfit changes he thinks he can get in that time, & tells us if there is any specific type of shot he's hoping to get (one time he wanted winter wear with bright scarves/hats/etc; another time he wanted a music theme, etc). He usually gives us at least one outfit or theme of something we want and we give him an outfit/theme that he wants. This one varies on how many images he shares. It really depends upon him. One time he gave us 5 awesome images and we never saw any of the other hundreds he took. Another time, he posted a hundred images and told us to choose as many as we wanted. Since our Agent will not accept more than 3 or 4 images from the same shoot, we rarely ask for more than that anyway. There is a mutual trust between this photographer and us, so this arrangement works.

Another photographer will give us a block of time and deliver all images on a CD. She usually edits 3-6, but she gives us all images. We rarely use any other than the ones she edits because she has already chosen the very best ones to edit. I've told her a few times that she goes above and beyond to give us all images on CD and that it isn't necessary, but she still does it. That's just her way.

Another photographer will tell us up front that we can pick 3 or 5 or 10 or whatever his magic number is for that day's shoot.

Now, switching gears just a little bit....

I like to shoot, also. Because my daughter models and because I am interested in photography, the above-mentioned photographers have become my mentors and now they have me doing some of these types of shoots also. I don't do as many as they do because I'm not as good and I don't have the time they have, but I still do them on occasion. I will usually choose 3-6 images to edit from each shoot and then I will post the best of the unedited images (usually end up with 25-50 images for each model). I let the models choose 3 images for me to edit and I give them the 3 they chose plus the ones I chose. That's what works for me. Sometimes I'll add a few extra images, but I always give at least 3 of their choice and a couple of my choice.

I'm not sure if my response helps or not, but this gives an idea from a different perspective.

Also, when models ask for all images on a disk, they are 'usually' people who are just getting started and who really don't understand what they actually need to book paying jobs. They just want free pictures. Just my $.02.

Sherry